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Sqrrt121

Better graphics or hi res DooM!

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So the other day I wanted to get a better graphics doom mod. I downloaded a mod that claimed to have hi res. The sight was awful. I was wondering, what do you use if any?

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Doom doesn't seem to get the same love that Duke Nukem 3D gets when it comes to graphics mods, I really wish someone would actually bother to attempt it with Doom because I want to see Doom with graphics features like bumpmapping and whatever else for once.

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Avoozl said:

Doom doesn't seem to get the same love that Duke Nukem 3D gets when it comes to graphics mods, I really wish someone would actually bother to attempt it with Doom because I want to see Doom with graphics features like bumpmapping and whatever else for once.

Yes, the Duke Nukem 3D HRP is very complete and, for the most part, very high quality (and the fact that EDUKE32 development goes hand-in-hand with it is very nice too). I'm not sure why Duke gets all that love but Doom doesn't (not to the same extent anyway). Personally, I'd have expected it to be the other way around. But then I guess I'm biassed.

Related; has anyone seen Reinchard around recently? He was making some very interesting HR Doom textures and many of them were far more faithful to the originals than we've seen before. However, I haven't seen anything from him for quite some time.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/60299-reinchards-high-resolution-textures-and-sprites-demo-available/

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Avoozl said:

Doom doesn't seem to get the same love that Duke Nukem 3D gets when it comes to graphics mods, I really wish someone would actually bother to attempt it with Doom because I want to see Doom with graphics features like bumpmapping and whatever else for once.



You are very wrong, check this out http://www.doomascension.com/

Keep in mind that these/models textures are outdated and the new ones are even better. NiuHaka posted small update with the former human a month ago. It was very good, more polys than the Doom 3 Z-Sec. The release is still a ways off though.

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Doomhuntress said:

i'm fine with small modifications such as voxels, dynamic lights and brightmaps for GZDoom.

Voxels look much chunkier than sprites, by the way. I'm not sure why so many people consider them faithful.

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DooM_RO said:

You are very wrong, check this out http://www.doomascension.com/

I didn't know that even existed. Very interesting. Shame there's nothing to actually try out yet though. It looks like getting it done is a very long term goal.

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I'm unfriendly with any graphic "enhancements". Even with higher resolutions I'm very careful: anything higher than 640x480 is usually an overkill for me. I feel like too much graphic detail makes most levels really flat and bland. I find it much better to have the faraway walls and objects kind of fuzzy, making them look like something more than just pieces of cardboard.

This is less true for maps with high detail level. Big numbers of sectors can become a total mess when viewed at low resolutions. I guess Sunder would be a good example.

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Memfis said:

I'm unfriendly with any graphic "enhancements". Even with higher resolutions I'm very careful: anything higher than 640x480 is usually an overkill for me. I feel like too much graphic detail makes most levels really flat and bland. I find it much better to have the faraway walls and objects kind of fuzzy, making them look like something more than just pieces of cardboard.

This is less true for maps with high detail level. Big numbers of sectors can become a total mess when viewed at low resolutions. I guess Sunder would be a good example.

kmxexii said:

I play with higher window resolution but I like my pixels.


EXACTLY! I have noticed this too.

I am by no means an artist but I think that for a game to look good, there has to be harmony between every graphical element, otherwise it looks weird. You can't just increase the resolution of a texture without further modifications. When you increase the resolution of a texture, you also have to increase the level of detail such as adding subtle details like cracks or whatever, otherwise it looks weird and unfinished. For each new pixel, you have to add a certain amount of extra detail.

You also can't just put high-res and highly detailed textures on low poly environments because this only serves to accentuate its low poly and not in a good way. When you make a texture better, the level of detail also has to increase in the actual environment but directly proportional to the new detail added on the textures.

Another, perhaps clearer analogy would be this: Consider for a moment that a Mocap company has a new breakthrough in facial animation. Now imagine how this technology would look on ugly, blocky Quake 1 models. SEEMINGLY unrelated graphical elements are now in clear relation to eachother and have to complement eachother.

One of the reasons I think Doom looks so "good" is because everything is of the same quality and complements perfectly. What I'm saying is that the level of detail and number of pixels on a texture is JUST enough for the low poly level of the environment.

It's really hard for me to explain this.

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Doom's pixel art is an important layer of abstraction for the game. When you increase the resolution to the point where it's no longer pixel art, you'll start feeling this kind of dissonance with the graphics.

I think the best kind of graphical upgrade would be something that increases the resolution of textures and sprites to something around slightly better than Build engine games.

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I'll be pedantic once more.

GeckoYamori said:

When you increase the resolution to the point where it's no longer pixel art, you'll start feeling this kind of dissonance with the graphics.

Doom's art was never pixel art in the first place.

"Pixel art" has nothing to do with pixels being big. It's a drawing technique that leads to various distinctive styles, none of which are clearly seen in Doom.

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Doom is kinda a hodgepodge of different art styles, and I think it's the very low res nature where every pixel counts that binds it all together. The soldiers and imps are very different in style from the larger creatures that were made from scanned models. I think they fall more along the lines of traditional pixel art. If it weren't for the low res nature I think there would be a lot more clashing between the assets.

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GeckoYamori said:

The soldiers and imps are very different in style from the larger creatures that were made from scanned models.

Doomguy was based on a model, as far as I remember.

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Sqrrt121 said:
I was wondering, what do you use if any?

I always try to use 320x200 in software mode, which is also on the same resolution as the status bar. If I use a source-port its for the extra ingame behavior or expanded limits and not to change the looks. That means I specifically use features that turn off added smoke trails, sprite translucencies and the like, if those are on by default.

And it surely is hi res, buddy, as low detail mode or screen blocks under 10 are certainly lower!

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Talking about sprites, High-res ones are way too hard to be finished. And the results aren't much better than using the HQN2X texture filter.

However, some time ago I have been trying to improve the animations, adding more frames to it and making the game run smoother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9zruiEdbA8


I seriously hope you will finish it one day.

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I don't understand this obsession with eliminating pixelyness in older games. It fundamentally changes the feel and atmosphere of the game with no guarantee that it'll be for the better, and on top of that it's a ridiculously large undertaking that would essentially take the whole community's participation to complete. I'm much more interested in improving subtler details within the existing art, like smoothing out the animations as Sarge mentioned. If you look at something like Metal Slug or Earthworm Jim, those games are low-res as all hell, but they still look fantastic because of the quality of the original art and animations.

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Gifty said:

I don't understand this obsession with eliminating pixelyness in older games. It fundamentally changes the feel and atmosphere of the game with no guarantee that it'll be for the better, and on top of that it's a ridiculously large undertaking that would essentially take the whole community's participation to complete. I'm much more interested in improving subtler details within the existing art, like smoothing out the animations as Sarge mentioned. If you look at something like Metal Slug or Earthworm Jim, those games are low-res as all hell, but they still look fantastic because of the quality of the original art and animations.


I think you're right but I think Doom Ascension is worth a shot. After all, it's made by a professional.

Alternatively, a project to increase the pixel density and detail on textures could work. They would still be pixlellized but with more detail. Increased texture variety would also be a huge plus. I've always hated how there were no gray and red versions of the marble textures (except SP_HOT)

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Gifty said:

I don't understand this obsession with eliminating pixelyness in older games. It fundamentally changes the feel and atmosphere of the game

Personally, I find that the pixelyness can be quite ugly and indistinct. Hi-res replacements are, potentially, less so. I'm not convinced that it fundamentally changes the feel and atmosphere but, if it does, it could be for the better. If it does change it for the better, then I'm cool with it. If it doesn't, then I don't have to keep using it. The mere fact that an alternative exists allows me a choice - and sometimes I play with hi-res replacements, sometimes I don't. It depends what I feel like. I quite often play Risen3D with hi-res textures and Willem Sitters' models. I would agree that these do actually create a slightly different ambience but it's one that I like and playing old favourites in this way is like new light through old windows.

If the game is fun but I want it to look better (to me) of just different, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Gifty said:

with no guarantee that it'll be for the better...

You only do things when there is a guarantee that things will be better? C'mon, live on the edge a little. ;)

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I can't stand pixelyness anymore. This is why I play Risen 3d with high resolution textures, 3d models and everything! It's so good.

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Enjay said:Personally, I find that the pixelyness can be quite ugly and indistinct. Hi-res replacements are, potentially, less so. I'm not convinced that it fundamentally changes the feel and atmosphere but, if it does, it could be for the better. If it does change it for the better, then I'm cool with it. If it doesn't, then I don't have to keep using it. The mere fact that an alternative exists allows me a choice - and sometimes I play with hi-res replacements, sometimes I don't. It depends what I feel like. I quite often play Risen3D with hi-res textures and Willem Sitters' models. I would agree that these do actually create a slightly different ambience but it's one that I like and playing old favourites in this way is like new light through old windows.

That indistinct nature is a part of the game's aesthetic, though; Doom's environments aren't practically designed or realistic, they represent sort of a teenager's vague conception of what a Mars base would look like--it's all very abstracted. This kind of vagueness works so long the level of detail is similarly fuzzy, but once you start adding detail and upping the resolution, it brings into focus just how brutally primitive the game world really is, and the whole illusion falls apart. It's like adding color to a film noir.

I see the same demands for HD graphics all over the X-COM forums; I don't think that game would be half as scary if you had a really clear picture of the aliens. Its the vagueness, arousing your imagination, that makes it so successful visually and so tense.

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I've been digging the original artwork without use of filtering on my spare time and not caring about max res. I don't see how anybody can see anything on 320x200 or even 640x480 on a 20+ inch widescreen monitor.

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I hope Reinchard comes back and finishes his project one day. Or at the very least fix the link to the demo. I wouldn't mind having a copy of it.

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