Freelook/Jumping in Doom Games

[kmxexii]

Vermil said:

Ah yes, I remember that mod. It was some sort of realistic mod that had several advanced dehacked based hacks.

But unfortunately, I can't remember the name now.

Hostage Rescue (3), the progenitor of Twilight Warrior

http://onemandoom.blogspot.com/2013/06/hostage-rescue-3-hostage3wad.html

[Giomancer]

Maes said:

This would put a lot of older military aircraft/vehicle simulators in the FPS category, as well, as well as many driving games. The difference is that in a vehicle, well, you're not technically "in first person", in the grunt's clothes, so to speak, but in a driver's/operator's/commander's seat of sorts.

Son, you're entitled to your delusions.

- Gio

[fraggle]

Maes said:

This would put a lot of older military aircraft/vehicle simulators in the FPS category, as well, as well as many driving games. The difference is that in a vehicle, well, you're not technically "in first person", in the grunt's clothes, so to speak, but in a driver's/operator's/commander's seat of sorts.

There are several important differences between Descent and a simulator. For example, in a flight simulator you're continually moving forward - although you can change your orientation, your ability to move around is a lot more restrictive. Also, flight simulators take place in open air, while Descent's levels are confined underground tunnels.

In the end it's about the game mechanics. For example, you could replace "flying a ship around a mine" with "flying around a mine with a jetpack". Call it what you want, it's still "walking around corridors shooting bad guys", which is the essence of an FPS.

You can maybe argue that Descent is somewhere between an FPS and a simulator, but I'd argue it's closer to the former than the latter. This is kind of similar to the Hovertank discussion.

[Gez]

Other games kind of like Descent in that you're a spaceship but the mechanics are essentially those of an FPS are Radix and Terminal Velocity.

Shooting is the primary focus, you use your maneuverability as a defense, you pick up powerups, ammunition, and weapons as you fly through them, etc. It's an arcade gameplay in first person, which is what makes it so close to "proper" old-school FPS like Doom.

[Splatter]

I agree that Descent feels like an FPS with some space sim leanings (that it would eventually fully indulge with Freespace).

But this kind of statement is pretty asinine...

Giomancer said:

Well, let's see... you fly your ship in the first person... and you shoot enemy robots.

... since there's a lot more to what makes a genre than the literal meaning of the words in its name.

You play a role in Descent, and it's a game, so Descent's a role-playing game!

[Belial]

While Descent, Radix and Forsaken are clearly FPS games, I wouldn't put Terminal Velocity in the same basket. It was always more of an arcade 3D shooter than an FPS to me, like G-Police, Incoming or Swiv 3D.

[Urban Space Cowboy]

You're all missing the important part, which is the Radix video's familiar-looking area at about 2:00 in. (Need a hint? Remember, this is Episode 1, Mission 1...)

[Maes]

fraggle said:

For example, in a flight simulator you're continually moving forward - although you can change your orientation, your ability to move around is a lot more restrictive.

Actually, Doomguy's movement would be considered pretty restricted when compared to a helicopter simulation. Many simulator games also have "scalable" simulation detail, ranging from the arcade-y to being a complete PITA just to take off. Descent is sort of halfway: certianly you have to do engine management, but the control scheme (at least the default one) is clearly more complex than a "plain" FPS, and even than most flight sims (at least airplane sims, helicopter sims are at a whole new level).

Perhaps a good example of a game that combines both "true" FPS elements and (simplified) vehicular combat would the Battlefield games -or, if you want a more hardcore example, Derek Smart's Battlecruiser games).

In any case, can anyone provide an example of a pre-Wolf3D, pre-Ultima Underground and pre-Catacombs 3D, fully 3D game with real-time motion that had you moving in the clothes of a plain soldier/person? E.g. some sort of early "soldier simulator"? Try as hard as I can, I can't remember a single such game.

Also, I'm not alone in questioning whether vehicular combat sims/games should "count" as FPS.

Oh, BTW...

;-)

[Zed]

Maes said:

Descent is sort of halfway: certianly you have to do engine management, but the control scheme (at least the default one) is clearly more complex than a "plain" FPS, and even than most flight sims (at least airplane sims, helicopter sims are at a whole new level).

True. I bought Descent some years ago, and I've always sucked at controlling those damn ships, especially when using just a keyboard. Those 6 degrees of freedom sound great, until you try them. I was never anywhere as good in Descent as I am in Doom, and after 3 or 5 levels it starts feeling like a bad simulator. Don't get me wrong, I think Descent is great, but if I don't use a joystick, I just can't stand it.

Also, about jumping and freelook, one quick question. Daedalus: Alien Defence (the one from Team TNT) does allow freelook and jumping, right? I mean, I've always played it that way, and it feels "just fine".

[Belial]

Zed said:

True. I bought Descent some years ago, and I've always sucked at controlling those damn ships, especially when using just a keyboard. Those 6 degrees of freedom sound great, until you try them. I was never anywhere as good in Descent as I am in Doom, and after 3 or 5 levels it starts feeling like a bad simulator. Don't get me wrong, I think Descent is great, but if I don't use a joystick, I just can't stand it.

Keyboard + mouse works fine for Descent.

Try this:

WSAD - strafe up/down left/right
LSHIFT - backward
SPACE - forward
Swap LSHIFT and SPACE if you feel like it, depends on which finger you prefer on forward.

Mouse for looking around, left/right button primary/secondary attack.

Proof of concept:

(V - afterburner for Descent 2, Q/E - roll)

[Shadow Hog]

Belial said:

Keyboard + mouse works fine for Descent.

Try this:

WSAD - strafe up/down left/right
LSHIFT - backward
SPACE - forward
Swap LSHIFT and SPACE if you feel like it, depends on which finger you prefer on forward.

Mouse for looking around, left/right button primary/secondary attack.

(V - afterburner for Descent 2, Q/E - roll)

I actually prefer Space = "ascend", Shift = "descend", W = forward and S = backward, but otherwise this is basically my Descent control scheme as well.