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Tango

TANGO98

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New thing I'm working on, might turn into a bigger mapset eventually. Includes a custom bex patch that is MBF compatible.

- most monsters have more HP, move a bit faster, have faster projectiles
- Zombieman -> Grenade Zombie: shoots a bouncing grenade that explodes just like a rocket does
- SS Nazi -> Suicide Bomber: runs around and blows up in your face (but they don't scream bloody murder when running around, so don't lose em)
- Super Shotgun -> Quad Shotgun: shoots two SSG shots, uses four shells
- Shotgun shoots two shotgun shots, uses two shells
- Pistol -> Dual Pistols
- Chaingun is much faster
- Ammo and Shell capacity doubled
- added some trees in place of mostly useless Doom decor

atm there's just one map, in Map01 slot. Credits can be found in the accompanying text file. If you deserve credit for something or know someone who does, let me know!

screenshots

download

no difficulty settings yet, fyi

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In my opinion, the new mechanics aren't that good. They just throw out balance and give a feel of obscurity to this otherwise quite okay map. I specially dislike the look and animation of dual pistols, and mechanics of shotguns which results in huge ammo wasting. Grenade zombie does his best at damaging himself, and suicider is just gimmicky in a negative way, not really adding to a good experience.

Structure and flow of the map makes sense, you're a good level designer. But I sometimes find myself lost because of detail which indicates a possible path that doesn't actually exist. Gameplay is bad at places, mainly where suiciders are involved, good at many other places (shotguns spoil it). Was the obscurity your aim? In that case, maybe this can be viewed a little differently than I did. Although I don't see them by far to be ideal, the BEX changes are interesting at least.

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Agree with the comments about new gameplay mechanics, at least for the weapons. New enemies are fine enough. Had same problems as Memfis with GLBoom+, except no bleeding sectors/slime trails because of GL mode I guess.

complevel 11 FDA that cuts out midway: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1251626

I really like the look of the map, I think the level design is quite good, but I think I'd prefer it with normal Doom gameplay or at the very least normal shotguns.

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curse you, ZDoom. the bleeding and switches are obvious fixes and pretty trivial, not sure about bex problems though.

But I sometimes find myself lost because of detail which indicates a possible path that doesn't actually exist.


I'm going to assume you mean the pointless dead end with the Cacodemons?

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^I think there was more of them. Sometimes not really a dead-end corridor, but a window/raised floor/other piece of decorative detail which looked vaguely like a passageway and confused my navigation sense a little. Generally, the numerous curved "organic" paths are a little confusing.

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didn't much like the quad shotgun, found myself using the normal shotgun for the most part

GZDoom FDA https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8943931/fda/mayajmickleFDA.lmp

Tried to play without saves and just kept getting cheesy deaths so gave up in the end. suicide bombers and grenade launchers didn't seem fun at all, level design was kinda nice mostly but the red key trap felt horrible and unfair. Too many archviles at once for me.

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Also, the Grenade Launcher guys (and maybe the Suicide Bombers) drop clips? That doesn't make much sense.

Do enemies have more health? It seems like they take the same amount of shots despite the double-powered shotguns. edit: Oh, it even says in the first post that they do. Missed that, oops.

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plums said:

Do enemies have more health? It seems like they take the same amount of shots despite the double-powered shotguns.

It seems so, at least for the low-tier enemies. I still think that the "double" gimmick just makes the balance worse.
I miss the natural feel of shot-kill-shot-kill or SSG!-reload-SSG!-reload.

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If you don't care about obituaries, you can always replace some of the duplicate decorations to avoid the new monsters randomly dropping clips. Anyway, I'll give this a shot and leave some feedback.

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scifista42 said:

It seems so, at least for the low-tier enemies. I still think that the "double" gimmick just makes the balance worse.
I miss the natural feel of shot-kill-shot-kill or SSG!-reload-SSG!-reload.


Agreed.

Also, having played most of the map now, fuck those suicide bombers. It's OK if they're coming at you from the front and you will obviously see them and have lots of time to get them, but when they have the same alert sound as other humans and can sneak up on you... ugh :P

edit - Final thoughts after beating it:
-It feels like most of the BEX changes are just to have something different, without being too different or even an improvement, something I get from a lot of ZDoom mods as well.
-I didn't get lost at all in the level, I really liked the layout/architecture/visual design.
-It feels like it's designed for a port with mouse-aiming.
-Lots of AVs, but that didn't bother me too much. The only real gameplay complaint I had was sneaky suicide bombers.
-And yeah, with MBF level patches, you gotta test in any port you want to support. Eternity should support MBF too, have you tried in that?

Overall I liked it, but like I said before, I would have preferred it if it just used Vanilla Doom things.

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Yeah, the suicide bombers need to be more obvious: if you don't want the screaming, have some sort of ticking sound or something so people know they're there. An easy answer would be to drop the pain chance to 0, have the ticking sound as their pain sound and have that sound in between the walking frames. Also, I remember when I tried duplicating Suicide Bombers in vanilla and I was inexplicably telefragged by a dying Mancubus when I killed one, so careful with altering them.

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scifista42, would you mind providing more details about the details (lol) that confused your sense of direction?

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https://www.mediafire.com/?l5fcgb4355hmg8p

here's a new version with only minimal dehacked changes. chaingun is faster, impballs and hk balls are faster. map still requires boom compat. if anyone can tell me why the AV at the beginning isn't resurrecting that Manc on the pedestal, or why the crushers past the red door don't seem to work, that would be swell

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Cool, Played until the red key/teleporter. This version is much more fun so far. A little easier too maybe, that's not inherently bad but without the grenade marines or suicide bombers you have room for a few more mid-tier enemies, if you wanted. Not a necessity.

Hope the comments about the BEX stuff wasn't too discouraging. I feel like you were in the middle ground where your changes were different enough that it changes the feel of things but not so different that it really makes an improvement. When changing things around with game mods I feel like anyone has got a big hurdle to overcome in that people like familiarity, so just shuffling things around a little becomes viewed negatively just because it's not what we're used to. Strict improvements with no tradeoffs are easier to accept than changes with tradeoffs, even if the net change is a boost for the player.

Also more compatibility is a plus even if most people on these forums use PrBoom+ or some variant of ZDoom.

Some things could've stayed I think, like the demon sprites (and even more HP on the demons), and dual pistols with a different sprite or even just a faster single pistol. I like the SSG sprite you've got going now a lot.

Weird about the crushers, they worked before, I'll try to figure it out...

edit: wow, your map looks gorgeous in DoomBuilder, I didn't use the automap that much when playing so I didn't really notice the floor plan too much. Only positive things to say about that part of the wad from me :D

The pedestal manc is just too far away from the AV I think, bringing the COPPER3 textured wall as close to the pedestal as possible so that the side linedefs are only 1px each makes it work.

e2: Really not sure about that crusher, changing it to type 6 (W1 crusher start with fast damage) makes it work for some reason? Maybe that will do?
e3: ah ha, it will have to, if you want Boom compatibility. When I played the map before I was using ZDoom when I got to that point.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/48463-boom-crusher-weirdness/


Last edit: Beat the new version. You really took out a lot of enemies! Maybe 3 AVs teleporting in at times was too much, but I still expected to see one. Oh well, leaves you room to scale the difficulty up when you make more maps, right?

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I've played the newer version and liked the gameplay much more.

Tango said:

scifista42, would you mind providing more details about the details (lol) that confused your sense of direction?

I apologize if I made it sound like if I find it a big deal. No, that might have been just my false expectation. Given the strange feel of the map's gameplay, I felt encouraged to rush through the map, and therefore I expected a higher level of intuitiveness (would have been appropriate) which didn't come. Well, this is not a polished map, the automap full of interwined, non-smooth curves indicates so too.

The little "misleading" desings (in fact just "not intuitive enough") were the backpack dead end, decorative holes in walls into inaccessible areas (dead corpse cave near the start), a lot of weirdly angled rooms (I expected a deeper purpose), overally simple texturing with rusty bricks which didn't distinguish between significant and insignificant areas.

http://i.imgur.com/oemWmWK.png
http://i.imgur.com/OtjueHu.png
http://i.imgur.com/VNGngie.png
http://i.imgur.com/yi1qXHG.png
http://i.imgur.com/6E5laIp.png
http://i.imgur.com/C3xGzEl.png
http://i.imgur.com/Zvu6I0Y.png

Again - these are MINOR things that I'd probably not complain about at all if I wasn't in a certain state of mind encouraged by the map's obscure pace.

Also there's a pointless secret timed switch puzzle without a reward, as it seems.

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The manc isn't being revived because arches can't revive through zero-height sectors, and he's too far away anyways it seemed. I made a bugfix that takes advantage of arch's ability to revive from any height:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9n9YNu8ulsmdTRaX01IT0V4Uzg/edit?usp=sharing

As far as the crushers, maybe this...

http://sourceforge.net/p/prboom/bugs/201/

EDIT: It looks like the manc platform still needs to be shrunk a bit. I have it working with 104x112. Tested in zdoom, of course.

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cool, thanks for the help and feedback dudes.

@scifista42, I'll see about correcting some of the things from the pictures.

weird about the crushers. I suppose type 6 will have to work instead. NT, I'm stealing your fix if that's ok haha. thanks for that.

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here's a new version that incorporates the fixes from NT's version (thx mate), and also includes a map02. map02 is a bit less refined than map01 even, but was done in a bit more than 3 hours so. forgive me. I think I knocked out all the bleeding sectors but bugs reports/suggestions welcome. map02 is a bit harder than map01, I think

edit: oh yeah the link lol

https://www.mediafire.com/?umomo0dqqnp7p00

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Long-ish FDA for Map 02.
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1252376

Died a few times at the start, some real Good At Doomâ„¢ playing going on in parts, but eventually I get going and then beat it. I don't know whether the start is harder than the rest because of lack of supplies, especially health, or whether it just was just me getting into my groove. Either way I'd say this map is harder than the current Map 01 but not as hard as the original with the MBF patch and all the AVs.

I noticed a cell pack but no plasma gun. Did I miss it, or was it for continuous players? Didn't notice any bugs or anything else weird, otherwise.

Tango said:

map02 is a bit less refined than map01 even, but was done in a bit more than 3 hours so. forgive me.


I don't know whether it's the textures and trees or what, but this looks extremely good to me for 3 hours. I really like your designs, they feel very organic and not boxy at all. Music was nice too. Anyhow I hope you keep going in this style a bit more 'cause I think these first two maps are great.

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haha thanks man :D good to hear.

apparently the plasma secret wasn't overly obvious like I was afraid it might be, so that's good to know ;) although I'm not sure if I marked that sector a secret, actually. oops

doing the organic designs is a lot of fun, though half of me struggles to resist the urge to square things off and make it all neat and orthogonal. I'll see how long I can keep the steam going though! it's been a while since I've been this productive

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Here's my 2 fdas for the most recent link:
http://speedy.sh/tunvD/t-99maya-fda-ggg.zip
I thought they were excellent, great visuals and a 'constant threat from many directions' type of gameplay that lends itself to entertaining fdas probably. I just saw 1 apparently missing texture on map1 (I waggled back and forth to make it obvious if you watch it, or if not its like, down below in a fairly deep area w/ trees and lifts that go up (btw, maybe those lifts could be more obvious they are lifts and not columns, doesn't matter much). Never tried the other version with suiciders etc.

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excellent! I'll be sure to check out the demo, though I think I know where you're talking about. thanks for the kind words mate

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Just curious, are you going to have new monsters in the finished product? It sounds like you scrapped the majority of the DeHackEd work in the second beta and to be honest the DeHackEd stuff is what got me excited about this in the first place.

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I dunno, I might revisit them later. the more I think about adding new monsters, the more I realize how limited Dehacked is in terms of introducing variety like I might like to. I'm not convinced suicide bombers don't have their place when used properly (which I may well may not have done, especially considering lack of screaming sounds), and modifying one of the weapons could be possible. I'll be thinking about it though, definitely!

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Alright. On a side note I've got some DeHackEd monsters collecting dust on my hard drive, so let me know if you want to see any of them. :)

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I most certainly do :D no harm in at least taking a look right? I suppose perhaps a PM is in order

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