Did Final Doom suck the Grand Potato?

[Janus3003]

Marcaek said:

it's about smart monster placement that actually puts pressure on the player and forces them to be smart and move well.

Like the alert chaingunner right behind the player's starting point in Map 10?

[Marcaek]

Yeah sounds about right. Just one chaingunner isn't even too bad to deal with.

[Koko Ricky]

Played the PSX Final Doom for years, then finally checked out the PC version recently. I guess my bias must have gotten in the way, because the maps that weren't in the PSX version were kind whatever. I didn't even finish it. Maybe some day I'll try it again. It wasn't terrible, but as a COMMERCIAL release following Doom 2, it was mediocre.

[Doomkid]

MajorRawne said:

They changed the monster designs so they all look like someone's hurling tremendous turds in your face, the weapons look crap, ...
Oh yes, and some of the monsters had large and obvious anus holes, which I have always wondered if it is meant to be symbolic.

Maes said:

Yeah, shitty game, with all that brown, and all those brown, shit-colored monsters....

I couldn't resist, the quote just seemed to fit so well. The connection between Doom and feces seems to be made really often, especially at DW.

MajorRawne said:

Also, gameplay was even slower than on the Playstation..

Yes, but the new atmosphere works here, because it's not "Doom 1 but dark and slow with ambient noise", it actually delivers new spritework (that on 2nd viewing, with a real N64 on a CRT screen - looks damn good) and levels that are granted, a bit repetitive, but aren't just trying to be more of the same from the previous games. In some instances the level design felt very Duke3D-ish. The game dared to try a slightly new approach, and I feel it worked quite well, even if it wasn't the golden masterpiece it could have been.

Doom 64 always felt like the "real" Doom 3. Doom 3 is good, but doesn't feel that much like Doom - but that's another discussion we've all had at one time or another, so I'll leave it be.

MajorRawne said:

My memories are finding it unplayable on co-op due to constantly being hit by Chaingunners.

This is the problem with Plutonia in a nutshell.. It gets old. It definitely doesn't "suck" but TNT felt fresher for a longer time. Oh and the lack of new music (not even 3 or 4 new MIDIs?!) blew arsehole as well, it could have at least recyclted some of the TNT tunes. I've already heard the E1 songs before, give me something fresh for my money, damnit!

[Torturephile]

[i]Doomkid92 said:Oh and the lack of new music (not even 3 or 4 new MIDIs?!) blew arsehole as well, it could have at least recyclted some of the TNT tunes. I've already heard the E1 songs before, give me something fresh for my money, damnit!

I downloaded a bunch of Symphony X midis and made a wad out of them. I chose which songs fit which Plutonia levels the best and ta da, Plutonia is better now. I recommend Symphony X for any Metal fan, by the way.
http://www.rppmf.com/symphony_x.htm

[MajorRawne]

When playing the Lost Levels for the PSX TC, I recall a fierce enjoyment of some of the Plutonia maps, but there is definitely some suckage in some of the others.

Plutonia's playing style can't be directly compared to the other Dooms. It definitely has its own character. Doomkid nailed it when he spoke about repetition. If you like what Plutonia offers, you'll find the repetition delivers more of what you enjoy and it will be a good thing.

One thing I'm picking up from this thread is that Final Doom did not suck and was in fact a worthy addition to the Doom canon. Maybe we should start a thread where we bitch about id Software not issuing an immediate follow-up.

[Dime]

Final doom "sucked" because of the year it came out.

[Deleted_Account]

Well Final Doom wasn't actually final right? We got Doom 64 and Doom 3 afterwards, and supposedly a Doom 4.

[Gez]

Piper Maru said:

Well Final Doom wasn't actually final right? We got Doom 64 and Doom 3 afterwards, and supposedly a Doom 4.

Final Doom was as Final as Ultimate Doom was Ultimate.

[Hellbaron]

I believe all the iwads have a redeeming factor which make them stand out from the rest.

Doom 1's focus was on atmosphere. The maps actually felt like realistic depictions of whatever they were supposed to depict. Having fewer monsters on each map added to the game's atmosphere. Maps like E3M7 felt very claustrophobic for this reason. People still play Doom 1 for the atmosphere alone.

Doom 2's map design was more abstract and less realistic, probably because realistically depicting earthly cities would have been much harder to do with the engine compared to, say, the tech bases of E1. I am not a fan of Doom 2's textures either. The game also became more action oriented with maps having more monsters and larger battles. Apart from a few memorable maps like Map28, I didn't really like Doom 2 that much as an episode. Its greatest contribution was the addition of the new middle tier monsters and the SSG, all of which added more dimensions to gameplay.

TNT was very much like Doom 1 in that its emphasis was on atmosphere. It had these large, epic, breathtaking maps, many of which looked very realistic. I was completely blown away by maps like Pharoah, Mount Pain and Map 19 (which actually had a truck with wheels). I was amazed to see the Doom engine was capable of such things, which made me dislike Doom 2's design choices even more. The textures were great and while Doom and Doom 2 had really great music, TNT's soundtrack was a valuable addition to the series and many of the tracks were absolutely fantastic, some of the best videogame soundtracks ever. Maps like Map 12 and Map 15 really made me feel like I was the lone marine, trapped on a moon of Jupiter fighting demons. The only downside of TNT was that it had the occasional texture that looked like it was made in MS Paint. It also seemed to have more hitscan enemies (zombies) compared to Plutonia which had more demons and as a result, people find TNT more frustrating even though it is easier. The gameplay is inconsistent compared to Plutonia but that doesn't bother me. I like having that variety and the wonderful atmosphere, map architecture and music more than make up for it in my opinion.

Plutonia had a more consistent feel and gameplay compared to TNT because it was made by only 2 people. While the textures were actually of great quality, I personally prefer the tech theme of TNT over the jungle/hellish theme of Plutonia. It felt more like a compilation of 32 maps for the hardcore player than like an actual episode. There were Revenants, a Pain Elemental, Mancubi and even an Archvile on Map 1 so it lacked a sense of progression compared to TNT which started out easier and gradually got harder. With its emphasis on strategic placement of monsters and traps in order to push the player's skills to their limits, Plutonia's maps feel more like puzzles or challenges that need to be solved, if that makes sense. Plutonia has probably aged better than TNT and perhaps even Doom 2. It has gone on to inspire several megawads and is considered an archetype. Beating it on Ultra Violence is still a challenge. You really have to play wads like Hell Revealed 1 and 2 which spam hundreds of monsters all over the map to realize how Plutonia manages to be almost just as challenging despite having a much lower monster count. This shows how skillfully it was designed. Not to take anything away from the Hell Revealed series though. They were great as well.

[Deleted_Account]

One thing I really liked about the PSX version of Final Doom was the Cyberdemon in Onslaught, that was a nice surprise.

[MajorRawne]

You see, that's the thing about PC Doom. How many times do the bosses show up? They are almost mandatory in modern maps and I'm as guilty as anyone else for that. The Gargantua in Half Life was terrifying, but I bet nearly every custom map features one or more. You lose respect and see them as just another monster.

[Doomkid]

Yeah, even the Spiderdemon and Cyberdemon are often used in many, many maps in megawads, more as 'mini bosses' rather than the big badesses they seemed like back in the old days.

It would be nice to see more actual bosses in Doom wads, stuff that isn't just a recycled IOS either. In all the maps I've made, I've never come up with something truly fresh, and that irks me.

[_bruce_]

Final Doom carries too much of a low quality/amateur vibe
for me to be taken seriously. The horrendous custom textures,
clumsy architecture and monster spamming drag it down. The
Casali brothers were at the right time at the right place.
I've played through final 6 or 7 times and even in coop it
started to get annoying.
On a more positive note - the psx version makes it
Somewhat edible and the idea with the "time machine" is
simply amazing.

[Koko Ricky]

What do you mean about the "time machine"? Are you talking about the Wormhole map?

[mrthejoshmon]

GoatLord said:

What do you mean about the "time machine"? Are you talking about the Wormhole map?

The story found in the PSX manual for Final Doom is what he is talking about.

[BlueFeena]

MajorRawne said:

You see, that's the thing about PC Doom. How many times do the bosses show up? They are almost mandatory in modern maps and I'm as guilty as anyone else for that. The Gargantua in Half Life was terrifying, but I bet nearly every custom map features one or more. You lose respect and see them as just another monster.

Not necessarily. Doom has had to constantly deal with the general skill of the player base increasing, so as players get better, boss monsters become more frequent. In Doom 1, individual Cacodemon or Demon encounters were utilized in an almost demi-boss fashion. Nowadays, it takes almost a small army of either monster -- usually a combination of both -- for the player to feel threatened.

In Half-Life, it's kinda the other way around. The Gargantua is largely a "cinema" monster, in that most of the fear it generates is based on scripted sequences and things the monster's AI do not actually permit it to do. Remember that cool scene in Half-Life where a Gargantua squished some soldiers with an SUV? Yeah, it can't actually do that. In most instances, using a Gargantua in HL is the sign of inexperience on the mapper's part. I can't tell you how many shit Sven Co-op maps I've played that consist of spawning a Gargantua on top of players in an extremely tight room with eleventy missile launchers.

[_bruce_]

GoatLord said:

What do you mean about the "time machine"? Are you talking about the Wormhole map?

Yes. I experiemced the map in the psx version for the first time and I was simply blown away. It turbo charged my imagination.

[sincity2100]

PSX Final Doom wasn't as charming as the Original Final Doom,they undercut both TNT and mostly Plutonia in order to bring Master Levels to the mix,maps in TNT "I always love battles with hitscan enemies" and they removed them and decided to shove imps down my throat in most of the levels and completely milk it to the point that I got sick and tired of imps,in Plutonia they completely ignored it and just thrown 6 random maps that didn't set any new standers,and the final map in the PSX Final Doom is map 10 Onslaught?!? that was the huge disappointment the way they handled both TNT and Plutonia,and I don't know the reason why they thrown Master Levels in the mix and showcased it the most,but that sucked.

[Job]

sincity2100 said:

PSX Final Doom wasn't as charming as the Original Final Doom,they undercut both TNT and mostly Plutonia in order to bring Master Levels to the mix,maps in TNT "I always love battles with hitscan enemies" and they removed them and decided to shove imps down my throat in most of the levels and completely milk it to the point that I got sick and tired of imps,in Plutonia they completely ignored it and just thrown 6 random maps that didn't set any new standers,and the final map in the PSX Final Doom is map 10 Onslaught?!? that was the huge disappointment the way they handled both TNT and Plutonia,and I don't know the reason why they thrown Master Levels in the mix and showcased it the most,but that sucked.

I don't know what your problem with the Master Levels is. They were an unexpected, but welcome addition to PSX Final Doom. Having played Final Doom before, I did not anticipate their inclusion. In fact, I'd say a lot of them were highlights of the game, providing some of the most memorable atmosphere and gameplay experiences.

[sincity2100]

Job said:

I don't know what your problem with the Master Levels is. They were an unexpected, but welcome addition to PSX Final Doom. Having played Final Doom before, I did not anticipate their inclusion. In fact, I'd say a lot of them were highlights of the game, providing some of the most memorable atmosphere and gameplay experiences.

I Know that,Master Levels was a good game,but it took most out of the Final Doom,which they were 30 levels total,I don't have an issue with Master Levels,but they completely undercut the other two games to the point that TNT didn't come out at it's best and Plutonia was absolutely irrelevant

[Guest Unregistered account]

I found it weird how when I first heard (and saw) about Plutonia on Youtube (AltimaMantoid) it seemed really good and Altima even said it's way better than TNT. But on Doomworld, it seems to be the reverse...

[MajorRawne]

I'd go on record and say the Master Levels are the best thing about PSX Final Doom. There are some tremendously good TNT maps, but Minos, Vesperas, Canyon, Attack and the rest were by far the cream of the Master Levels and by extension the pick of Final Doom.

Final Doom on the PSX was a huge waste of opportunity, delivering half the content of the original, but in my opinion they selected many of the best TNT maps. The Plutonia maps were all very meh and Onslaught didn't feel like a final map at all, very anticlimactic, but in retrospect, Final Doom delivered some seriously impressive maps and its higher difficulty level went a small way towards addressing the lack of content.

[mrthejoshmon]

MajorRawne said:

I'd go on record and say the Master Levels are the best thing about PSX Final Doom. There are some tremendously good TNT maps, but Minos, Vesperas, Canyon, Attack and the rest were by far the cream of the Master Levels and by extension the pick of Final Doom.

...but in my opinion they selected many of the best TNT maps.

I agree, although I do miss Steel Works and Prison.

I also bloody loved the included Master Levels and I am extremely glad they cut the tedious ones (The Titan maps and Black Tower are, in my opinion, the worst of the bunch).

Also, Crater had to be the most atmospheric TNT map I have ever played, the sky and music used added to the foreboding sounds of the active Arachnotrons outside stomping and growling away, waiting to melt you below the cold dark sky.

[RUSH]

Joe667 said:

I found it weird how when I first heard (and saw) about Plutonia on Youtube (AltimaMantoid) it seemed really good and Altima even said how it's way better that TNT. But on Doomworld, it seems to be the reverse...

Lots of Doomers (myself included) prefer Plutonia over TNT. The general Plutonia complaints seem to stem from the difficulty and lack of colourful textures. Despite that however, I find Plutonia to be much more fun. The maps generally have a nice flow and I rarely get lost (unlike TNT.)

[MajorRawne]

Crater is probably the best TNT map included. Amazing exploration map and the Sever the Wicked music fit it perfectly.

People who like extreme challenges seem to favour Plutonia. People who wanted an experience closer to the original Doom seem to favour TNT. I've noticed that PSX Doomers seem to prefer the Master Levels, then TNT, then Plutonia. That could just be my bias though. I'm always surprised to see the Master Levels being slated online, but the first time I played Titan Manor and Bad Dream, I understood.

[dew]

MajorRawne said:

Crater is probably the best TNT map included. Amazing exploration map and the Sever the Wicked music fit it perfectly.

Crater, really? That map is so strung out, empty and uneventful...

[ASD]

Crater is a good variety after that tight crate maze of Storage Facility. I call it the Starlight Zone of TNT.

[NuMetalManiak]

I liked Geryon the most out of the Master Levels in PSX, probably my most atmospheric experience.

[Wagi]

I'm going to say that Plutonia feels more solid, consistent in quality, and seems much more like an IWAD. TNT reeks of PWAD, and the mapping style and quality fluctuates a lot more.

Quite a few maps in TNT are very atmospheric and memorable. MAP20 has this sense of grandiose that I haven't seen matched in any other official map. Open Season had a really neat ambiance to it. I really dig the music in a lot of levels, too, especially MAP08's.

Speaking of the broken MAP02 music in there, does anybody remember exactly what caused that, and which ports it broke/worked under? I heard that some of the instrument channels had out-of-range volumes pumped into them, which caused them to play super-loud or not at all, depending on the port. I distinctly remember Doom95 having most of the instruments missing when playing that song.