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Supplesnap

LF> Doomers to join us in MP footage for 'CoD vs DOOM'

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Want to get involved?

We need Doomers for multiplayer footage, to be recorded in planned sessions. We have sessions planned for multiple gamemodes, three playerlimits (approximately 4, 8, and 16), and mod footage (Brutal Doom, Hideous Destructor, Realistic Weapons, Samsara, and ScoreDoom).

If you would like to participate, feel free to PM me or post. We have pre-configured source-ports and batch files for anyone who would like to join, but you must have your own official IWAD files for The Ultimate Doom and Doom II.

Feel free to share your thoughts below, but please don't flame or fight. Also, please don't nay-say without a viable argument. After articulating the differences between two games for tens of thousands of words, I'm not inclined to tolerate points like "Doom is too old, has bad graphics, barely has any weapons, CoD fans can't learn" etc.

This is primarily a multiplayer recruitment thread; the script is already mostly finished and not really up for debate.


About the Video

I, like many other gamers, feel that Doom is constantly patronized by 'modern gamers' for some of the worst reasons, primarily graphics-related. After close analysis and comparison, I feel there's a lot to express about modern standards of the FPS industry compared to the 90's, but the difference is too large to easily summarize, and frankly difficult to convey to gamers who can't see beyond high-res textures and marketing. Many would dismiss these arguments as those of a no-lifer or troll, or drown them out with logical fallacies and some classic one-sided shouting (Bill 'O' Reilly-style).

In the video, both franchises are broken down into basic elements, and compared in each category of design. The value of Doom as a product released back in 1993 will be compared to Call of Duty as a product released in modern times. By the end of the video, conclusions will be drawn about which direction the FPS industry was taken, and how it got there. The benefits of the PC platform as well as the amazing modding community have been accounted for. I'd like to emphasize also, that the tone will not be a mockery of consumers, but rather an exposition of the gaming industry.

This video is completely for educational purposes. It is non-profit, unmonetized, and will not have any advertisements.


What we have:

- Script: Currently 40k words with a ton of headings/subjects (For a sense of scale, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury is about 46k words)
- Half a dozen mostly-active contributors
- A lot of singleplayer footage

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Sure, there are the CoDfags who don't understand that Doom has held up very well and actually surpasses their favored game in every area but cosmetic fidelity, but is it really worth trying to convert them? People like that are probably closed-minded on many other things, FPS gameplay is probably not where you should start with these people, if they're even salvageable. I've only very rarely encountered people who try to shit on Doom, but I tend to avoid such people and those who they associate with anyhow, because I know that we're on polar opposites of the spectrum of opinion, and that their type of personality is very arrogant and unmalleable to begin with.

I can't actually claim to speak for everyone here, but I'd imagine most people on Doomworld would take this same position. It's not an important issue, and such people aren't worth the trouble. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm just stating how I see things, I apologize if my dismissal of your arguments offends you.

That being said, welcome. There's some pretty cool people and content on here.

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Sodaholic said:

Sure, there are the CoDfags who don't understand that Doom has held up very well and actually surpasses their favored game in every area but cosmetic fidelity, but is it really worth trying to convert them? People like that are probably closed-minded on many other things, FPS gameplay is probably not where you should start with these people, if they're even salvageable. I've only very rarely encountered people who try to shit on Doom, but I tend to avoid such people and those who they associate with anyhow, because I know that we're on polar opposites of the spectrum of opinion, and that their type of personality is very arrogant and unmalleable to begin with.

I can't actually claim to speak for everyone here, but I'd imagine most people on Doomworld would take this same position. It's not an important issue, and such people aren't worth the trouble. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm just stating how I see things, I apologize if my dismissal of your arguments offends you.

That being said, welcome. There's some pretty cool people and content on here.


I'm not trying to convert people, I'm primarily trying to illustrate the differences between good business practices and bad business practices, because the average gaming consumer rarely gets a chance to see a true comparison between the games, rather than just disorganized ranting and raging. I think a more technical method is required for results.

When designers and developers are able to succeed in charging the consumer as much for their title on a yearly basis as id did back when they launched the genre with way better business practices, then our FPS industry is being leeched on.

I personally think that the difference is worth fighting for. Duke Nukem, System Shock, and Goldeneye 007 were all heavily converted, and those are just a few examples. Bad business practice is a virus that demands immediate attention, before it consumes the industry on which it thrives. And that is the Activision and EA business model. Consume, replace, market, and thrive.

So I think it is an important issue, and those consumers are worth our (or at least my) trouble. You weren't rude or offensive. It's all in the tone, with which you came through in a reasonable way. Thanks for your input, and your welcoming! It's good to be here

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Gotta agree with Soda and Technician on this one. I'd like if the COD community stayed as far away from the Doom community as possible. I like interacting people that don't call everything a faggot.

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flubbernugget said:

Gotta agree with Soda and Technician on this one. I'd like if the COD community stayed as far away from the Doom community as possible. I like interacting people that don't call everything a faggot.


You might be surprised how many Call of Duty players are actually decent and rational people who are just vulnerable to marketing.

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Quite a lot of cod-idiot-bashing that opened up in this thread already; as such i feel the need to represent the community as the only person who has understood the message of this upcoming documentary thus far.

just wanna say that this sounds pretty great aa an informative piece, and i could direct you to some people who would really be helpful for something like this. We've spent thousands and thousands of forum posts discussing and splitting hairs about what makes doom so great. There are some great quotes you could elicit from users here.

also i believe all the big three multiplayer source ports have demo recording and playback capabilities. So you might wanna check that out should you want raw footage of your games, versus streaming or using recording software (benefits including things like playing stuff back in slo-mo, swapping to different player perspectives on real-time etc.)

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This reminds me of an old idea where a next gen shooter would include the option to play either as an old school shooter class or a modern realistic shooter class.

Old school shooter class moves faster can jump but does less damage. Modern shooter runs slower but does tons of damage, has to reload, has a one hit kill melee.

Who wins? The quake 1 guy or the COD guy?

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40oz said:

just wanna say that this sounds pretty great aa an informative piece, and i could direct you to some people who would really be helpful for something like this. We've spent thousands and thousands of forum posts discussing and splitting hairs about what makes doom so great. There are some great quotes you could elicit from users here.

I appreciate that, and I'm interested in speaking with them.

[i]40oz said:
also i believe all the big three multiplayer source ports have demo recording and playback capabilities. So you might wanna check that out should you want raw footage of your games, versus streaming or using recording software (benefits including things like playing stuff back in slo-mo, swapping to different player perspectives on real-time etc.)

I was planning to use OBS to record it, but demoing it is a way better method, thanks for reminding me! It'll make editing way easier, and I can listen to music without drowning the stereo mix.

TheCastle said:

Old school shooter class moves faster can jump but does less damage. Modern shooter runs slower but does tons of damage, has to reload, has a one hit kill melee.

Who wins? The quake 1 guy or the COD guy?

I think the idea you described of allowing two or more types of gameplay is fantastic if they manage to balance it, and that's often where companies mess up. Valve and UnknownWorlds seem to have executed the idea well with TF2 and NS2.

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I live with a fan of modern FPS games, my sister....she doesn't do Call of Duty however, she hates that game. But she will play the likes of Halo for example and even though it's not first person, Gears of War

I'm not against modern FPS games in that I hate them, I rather just don't get thrilled by them. There's a lot of them out there I don't get into like the already mentioned Call of Duty games and Halo games.

FPS games from the Doom era I will most likely enjoy, up until the mid 2000's sort of spot...then gaming as a whole kinda dried up for me. Sure there are indie games out there, and yeah some of those are cool but over all I play less modern games.

As for footage for the video....I suppose you could nab some from my YouTube channel if you want, so long as I get credit for lending the video.

I don't have masses of Doom content, but I do have an old Skulltag multiplayer video up there. But it was with a friend who couldn't play for long....but you can take footage from it if you want. And I blame my noobishness on a constant state of tiredness >_>
https://www.youtube.com/user/Amaranthus616/search?query=doom
I also have some videos of some custom content I've been working on, I'm rather new to custom enemies but so far have 3 of them made, thanks to some help on these forums on a couple of problems I've had.

But for extra videos which may or may not be of use to you, I'm up for playing co-op with people. I don't know how to record demos as such, but recording with Dxtory is easy enough.

I'm planning to record some PSX Doom in the future, and possibly Doom 2 with Mr Chris's new mod.

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If you'd like to use side-by-side video footage or anything like that, I'm happy for you to use these for use in addition to what others have provided. I like this idea and I think it could end up being something very entertaining and informative, if executed correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVLt1cYCag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSSKLeVtkbA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoPAUsAA34

All of these were recorded live, they aren't demos. This game is lightning in comparison to CoD, but I'm not a 'hater' either way - If you like CoD, that's fine. I don't hate people for liking shitty ass pop music either, I find that tastes are actually a fairly shallow respresntation of someone's personality, and I've learned this through a lot of personal experiences/friendships over the years. [/rant]

Long story short, any half-witted CoD player will probably like Doom as well, if someone ever shows it to them properly - In a gamemode they'd like, with a controller they'd like, on a map they'd like, etc.

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I'm primarily trying to illustrate the differences between good business practices and bad business practices


Good business practices =

1. target one of the lowest common denominator in your audience.

In gaming, you can't go wrong with teen males. They lack critical thinking skills, and will pay too much for an inferior product.

1a. set the game in a realistic game environment. Less nerdy, less imagination required.

1b. make the hero a manly man in the military. Power fantasy, validation.

1c. limit player agency as much as possible. Less freedom means less ways for the player to get stuck, less effort means lower barrier of entry and more players.


2. enforce online play.

Online games can be saddled with DRMs. While piracy remains possible, any added step is bound to make a few knuckleheads give up. And if you're doing it right, your target audience is knuckleheads.

2a. put emphasis on multiplayer, especially in DLCs and the like. A multiplayer gamer will pay up for your new map pack or your new weapon pack so he can play with everyone else.

2b. encourage a competitive mindset. Competition makes people passionate, and the more invested they are in your particular game the less likely they are to look somewhere else. Likewise, they're more likely to dominate the online discussions, which does half of the multiplayer promotion job for you.

2c. add achievements, use social network integration, make mobile tie-in apps. Anything addictive, to remind the player of the game consistently.

2d. downplay the importance of single player, but don't neglect it during development. Stats show the split is about 50/50. Don't ever acknowledge those stats.

2e. make the single player game short, with as little replayability as possible. You don't want to give people a complete experience, you want to push them to multiplayer.


3. target locked platforms

The more control you have, the more money you make.

3a. sell games at full price on a yearly basis. They'll buy it.

3b. throw in DLC between major releases, in every financial quarter. Keep the investors happy. The players will buy those too.

3c. do not allow mods. They're your competition. Sell DLCs instead, map packs, weapon packs, hat packs.


4. publicity, publicity, publicity

Nobody cares how good your game is if they haven't heard of it.

4a. put more money into your marketing campaign than your development team. Gameplay doesn't sell games, ads do.

4b. make sure the game has tons of cinematic sequences. Gameplay doesn't sell games, screenshots do.

4c. capitalize on any new feature, or take old features and pretend they're new. Gameplay doesn't sell games, perceived innovations do.

4d. use celebrity endorsements. Gameplay doesn't sell games, popular faces do.

4e. do all of the above knowing many gamers will hate you for it. Internet flamewars will only spread word of your game further. People will buy and play your game just to take a dump on it. There is no such thing as bad publicity.


Bad business practices =

1. release one installment of your beloved franchise per decade

Ten years is a long time, and video games, especially on the computer or on a console, still have the stigma of a childish hobby. People stop caring and move on.

2. put technology first

Game engines have reached a point most gamers are comfortable with, and a point where improvements aren't going to get those gamers to sit up and take notice.

3. make the games you want to play

You're now 40 or 50 years old and mostly like casual timewasters on the phone or watch your kid play the latest Mario. Congratulations on being a grown up; but that's not what your core audience wants. They expect the same game as before, incrementally better.



That's about it. You're welcome!

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Technician said:

CoD fanatics are idiots. Forget about them.


Exactly. Let them play their CoD in peace and just stick to your DOOM. It's much less frustrating for everyone that way.

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@phml

I completely agree with all of your points, and actually had about 90% of these points already in the script, but worded a lot differently and a lot less sarcastically, ahaha! You helped me draw some inspiration into another heading, though; thank you for your input! It's a lot more helpful (and generally better) than people saying CoD fans can't be reached.

Feels like some of these people aren't reading the thread before posting, and like a lot of people are going to backtrack on this "Leave them alone, they aren't affecting us" philosophy if Wolfenstein:NO and/or Doom (4) flop. Purchases are voting power in the industries, people. If everyone votes on garbage, the industry becomes garbage.

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Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what the CoD community thinks of Doom.

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Enjay said:

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn what the CoD community thinks of Doom.

I don't recall of anyone being asked if they care what CoD players think. That's not what this script or this thread is about; it's a lot more than that.

Note for several posters:

"This is primarily a multiplayer recruitment thread; the script is already mostly finished and not really up for debate."

Thread Title: LF> Doomers to join us in MP footage for 'Doom vs CoD'
Not: LF> Doomers to tell us our project is meaningless and make unfounded blanket statements

"Feel free to share your thoughts below, but please don't flame or fight. Also, please don't nay-say without a viable argument. After articulating the differences between two games for tens of thousands of words, I'm not inclined to tolerate points like "Doom is too old, has bad graphics, barely has any weapons, CoD fans can't learn" etc."

Check this out:

Most threads about touchy or controversial issues quickly turn into an argument between two or more people with differing views. These debates are probably the most stressful use the regulars will ever make of their brains while on the Doomworld Forums. Often, decency, logic, and the forum FAQ are disregarded entirely by enraged members trying to show each other the "right" way to think. Please lessen the headache for everyone and follow a few basic rules:

- Address fully all relevant points made by another poster. Use the quote function.
- Stick to the topic.
- Avoid stereotypes/generalizations and the rumor mill.

And this isn't even a debate thread.

No offense to anyone, but we're approaching the second page of replies, and the majority of contributions are people shitting on the hard work that has already been done and/or the overall purpose and validity of it. I encourage people to actually read the opening post fully before using this thread as an outlet to vent your hatred for all people and things CoD in 1-2 lines. Nobody writes 40k words of formatted points and captures a ton of footage to give up because people reply that it's hopeless or stupid.

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I agree with the original post. Games prior to computers existed and among the oldest is chess - in our new digital age and within the FPS genre we have one game that is almost the equivalent of chess in terms of simplicity with substance.

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Supplesnap said:

I don't recall of anyone being asked if they care what CoD players think. That's not what this script or this thread is about; it's a lot more than that.

Supplesnap said:

Feel free to share your thoughts below

I, like many other gamers, feel that Doom is constantly patronized by 'modern gamers' for some of the worst reasons, primarily graphics-related. After close analysis and comparison, I feel there's a lot to express about modern standards of the FPS industry compared to the 90's, but the difference is too large to easily summarize, and frankly difficult to convey to gamers who can't see beyond high-res textures and marketing. Many would dismiss these arguments as those of a no-lifer or troll, or drown them out with logical fallacies and some classic one-sided shouting (Bill 'O' Reilly-style).


Your original premise seems to be based, at least partly, on the idea that "modern gamers" dismiss Doom often primarily on the basis of how pretty their game is (in their eyes) versus Doom. My thoughts on this matter are that I really don't care what they think about that. To me, if they dismiss Doom on the basis of graphics, what difference does it make to me? None. I still play Doom. They still play CoD (etc). If they are happy with their shiny, marketed, perked and achievement laden games, let them get on with it. I don't find the idea of a documentary, or whatever, style discussion examining the similarities and differences of such games to Doom particularly interesting or relevant to me.

As per your invite, I was freely sharing my thoughts on the matter in what I thought was a quick, succinct way. By expanding on this, I don't really think I have added much more substance. It still boils down to "I don't care what CoD players think of Doom". Equally, I don't really care much about what Doom players think of CoD. I suspect that most of the likely comments have been made on these boards many times over.

I know that nothing that I said above is really specific to CoD. I was just using it as a shorthand for "modern games/gamers". Perhaps I was wrong in doing so but then you seem to be singling out CoD for special attention too:

Supplesnap said:

The points and subjects discussed in the video are divided into three segments, which are currently named:

1) Doom vs Call of Duty


Supplesnap said:

This video is completely for educational purposes. It is non-profit, unmonetized, and will not have any advertisements.

While I applaud the idea of your project having educational goals, I'm not entirely sure who you plan to educate. I'm going to suggest that a great many Doomers are familiar with a lot of the "issues", comparisons, evolution and pressures that have led to the modern gaming market. These have been discussed many times here and other places and, because Doomers - by the very nature of what they play - are steeped in the history of gaming, I'd like to think that many are reasonably well informed in these matters.

Are "modern gamers" going to be that interested? Perhaps, briefly. Will it be likely that many try Doom as a result? Possibly. Do I care if they do? Not really. Which brings me back to my original point.



Despite how it probably sounds, I'm not trying to be disparaging about your project. If you want to do it, crack on and enjoy it. I hope it works out well. This post is already too long and too distracting from what I suspect you really want to discuss. I actually think I said most of what I wanted to in my original post. But you called me out so now I've prattled on with a wall of text. I don't intend posting in the thread again unless I have anything that I really feel I want to say (I'll continue reading it). This is not me sulking or anything silly like that but, rather, doing your thread the courtesy of leaving it alone and not posting distractions unless there is something for me to post that is more along the lines of the kind of discussion you appear to want.

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"Feel free to share your thoughts below, but please don't flame or fight. Also, please don't nay-say without a viable argument. After articulating the differences between two games for tens of thousands of words, I'm not inclined to tolerate points like "Doom is too old, has bad graphics, barely has any weapons, CoD fans can't learn" etc."

You removed the rest of that part. Fixed it for you.

Maybe I just genuinely didn't understand the purpose of a person posting on a thread to explain how uninterested they are.

Everything after:

I don't recall of anyone being asked if they care what CoD players think. That's not what this script or this thread is about; it's a lot more than that

was directed to multiple people, not exclusively you. You weren't called out.

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And here I go breaking my word already. Don't worry, I'll be quick. ;)

Supplesnap said:

You removed the rest of that part. Fixed it for you.

I trimmed that bit because I didn't think I was flaming or fighting. I have nothing against gamers who like CoD-style gaming. I don't see the point in having such a hang-up. That kind of gaming is not my choice but I'm happy to let others get on with it. So, no flames were intended. I don't think I did any of the other things that you were requesting people not do either (other than perhaps my comment being too unsupported), so, I clipped your post to keep my post shorter.

Supplesnap said:

I don't recall of anyone being asked if they care what CoD players think. That's not what this script or this thread is about; it's a lot more than that

was directed to multiple people, not exclusively you. You weren't called out.

My apologies. I read it as a direct comment to me. I misunderstood your intent.

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@Enjay

I should clarify better to avoid confusion. You're a civil poster, no damage done. Thanks for visiting the thread!

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Well, thank you too. :)

I'm posting because I think this may actually be the kind of question/comment that you are looking for. It relates back to something I said earlier.

I already picked up on your point that your project is intended to have educational goals. If you are setting yourself a goal of educating, then there must be an expectation that people will learn as a result of your project. I am actually genuinely interested to hear how you think that might pan-out. What are your educational goals? Who do you think will benefit from this information? What do you feel will be the likely outcome of your information being available? How successful do you think you are likely to be? How will you know?

The above are all "neutral" questions. By asking them, I'm not trying to imply anything (positive or negative) other than what they literally ask.

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My goal by the end of this project is to show, through infallible illustration of points, that Activision has not only streamlined most of the meaningful (and especially skillful) gameplay mechanics out of Singleplayer and Multiplayer FPS, but have also intentionally removed most of the value in their product in favor of heavy marketing and hype.

I personally feel this sort of business is a virus, sucking the life out of the FPS industry, and I feel Activision is fully aware of it. My goal is also to expose this, show the damage it's done, compare the new to the old in several cases, and coin the term 'Comfort gaming', which describes essentially an intentionally dumbed down form of gaming to give people fake pleasure.

Think chocolate vs salad. One tries to have flavor, but no substance. The other tries to have substance, and the flavor is customizable.

In leading the industry with shoddy standards, I believe that a lot of other companies are mislead by where Activision's real success comes from, and have often followed Activision's design choices, disrespecting their own consumer-bases and essentially working toward a 'one-game market'. A good example of this would be Duke Nukem: Forever.

An example directly influenced by Activision, however, would be the 007 series they bought the rights for. Goldeneye: Reloaded, which threw out almost everything about the N64 counterpart, completely replacing all of the gameplay mechanics with the spitting image of Call of Duty, and marketing it to the consumer like it was the long-awaited supreme comeback of Goldeneye. No surprise, online multiplayer with mostly the same interface and gameplay mechanics as a Call of Duty title.

Another reason I think this is important, is because most comparison videos are actually one-sided rants. I think an expository, formal, yet humorous tone is the weakpoint of bad business practice.

"Who do you think will benefit from this information?"
Confused consumers and designers.

"What do you feel will be the likely outcome of your information being available? How successful do you think you are likely to be?"
If I get a lot of views, damage to Activision's business model. If not, probably not a lot of anything. I think I will be successful, because a ton of work has gone into this and I've done a lot of research on presentation methods.

"How will you know?"
Views, likes/dislikes, official response.. Whatever comes my way.

Summarized Answer: I want to educate anyone who wants to watch the video, whether they play games casually, professionally, or design them. If I didn't answer well enough, I sent a PM that might help.

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I have no problem with people liking CoD, but I do agree with your points about CoD's immense success having a negative impact on the FPS genre as a whole. You probably know these articles but for anyone else interested, the first at least is a worthy read.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/#null

I’m really discouraged by the current state of multiplayer shooters. I think that, and I hate to mention names, because it sounds like ‘I’m just jealous of their success,’ but I’m really, I feel like Call of Duty has almost ruined a generation of FPS players. [...] My goal was to create something that was accessible enough for them to enjoy the game--not turn it into Call of Duty, but try to make something that I thought was casual enough but with the Red Orchestra gameplay style that they would enjoy. And we iterated on it a lot. And just listening to all the niggling, pedantic things that they would complain about, that made them not want to play the game, I just thought, "I give up. Call of Duty has ruined this whole generation of gamers."


http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/how-call-of-duty-killed-the-first-person-shooter-1166891

http://www.gamejudgment.com/how-call-of-duty-is-ruining-gaming

There are quite a lot of similar things written.


Anyhow one thing I'm curious about is why you're using Doom instead of Quake, which is probably more well-known as a competitive multiplayer FPS. Is the Quake scene that dead these days? Is it an attempt to go as retro as possible for the contrast? Maybe you just like Doom more?

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plums said:

Anyhow one thing I'm curious about is why you're using Doom instead of Quake, which is probably more well-known as a competitive multiplayer FPS. Is the Quake scene that dead these days? Is it an attempt to go as retro as possible for the contrast? Maybe you just like Doom more?


While the direct comparison will mainly be between Doom and Call of Duty, I will be referencing games that share good/bad characteristics on each side.

To properly capture the difference between the old industry and the new, I need to draw in examples from other games around their time. Blood, Duke Nukem, Goldeneye, Hexen, Quake are each referenced to, since they share many of the meaningful characteristics of old games.

STALKER, Doom 3, Deux Ex: HR, Metro 2033, are examples of newer (to varying degrees) but still arguably good products.

But, I will be critiquing Duke Nukem: Forever, Homefront, Bioshock series, Medal of Honor, Battlefield, Crysis 2+, and several others. Not to say these are bad games, but they follow trends of scrapping good design practices to varying degrees. If you've played Crysis 2, you know what I'm saying.

The reason I select Doom vs Call of Duty as the direct comparison, is because they both seem to be the most well-known of their times, so the message can be received by a broader demographic.

While Quake may have been known more on a competitive level (especially with a skillful mechanic like rocket-jumping), I'm heavily factoring in Single-Player as well, and I think Doom MP+SP would help my argument more than Quake MP+SP, in a direct comparison. It's also a very powerful statement to say something in 1993 beats something in 2013, because I get to use the words "two decades."

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I don't see this coming out very well, but if you're gonna do some comparisons, throw in some Russian Overkill, Brutal Doom, Project MSX, WW-Nazis footage as well as some footage from some maps such as Holy Hell, Sunder, Memento Mori 2, Hell Revealed 1/2 and other maps that push the engine in some manner or make the maps look nice somehow.

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Mr. Chris said:

I don't see this coming out very well, but if you're gonna do some comparisons, throw in some Russian Overkill, Brutal Doom, Project MSX, WW-Nazis footage as well as some footage from some maps such as Holy Hell, Sunder, Memento Mori 2, Hell Revealed 1/2 and other maps that push the engine in some manner or make the maps look nice somehow.

The underlined mods each have a section in r3.

I'm going to look into those last five. Two examples of visually nice maps that are added are HellGround and Gothic99(haha). On the subject of graphics, the HD texture packs and meshed objects are in the same segment. Thanks for your suggestions

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