lifts vs stairs

[Memfis]

Do you think that maybe lifts suck a bit and should be replaced with stairs wherever possible? Because with lifts you press them, wait for them to come down, stay on them, wait for them to go back up. And with stairs you just kind of walk on them without idling at all. I never liked this lift from Requiem for example:

[Phml]

There's good and bad points to what you describe, i.e. in certain situations you don't want to block off an escape but you don't want to make it completely risk-free either; so lifts can make sense, adding a small delay without being a brick wall. Another thing with lifts, they tend to impede monster movement much more than stairs; which, again, can be a good thing or a bad thing based on what you're trying to do.

I like to use stairs by default and move on to lifts if space is tight or there's a need for a large height change (ridiculously tiny stairsteps are the devil). Lifts can be used for variety, too.

[joe-ilya]

Lifts are designed to avoid VPOs.

[scifista42]

Phml said:

I like to use stairs by default and move on to lifts if space is tight or there's a need for a large height change (ridiculously tiny stairsteps are the devil). Lifts can be used for variety, too.

Totally agree.

Lifts belong to places where the stairs would have to be too steep. Also to places where you want to slow down the player a bit, for example to not avoid a fight too easily. Also if you're trying to depict some kind of environment that makes at least a bit of realistic sense (techbase), lifts can be used (UAC employees don't want to carry crates by stairs, etc.).

Stairs generally mean a faster and more comfortable progression for the player. So yeah, I see them as a better choice for most of the time. But as Phml said, variety is important too.

[Phobus]

I have to admit, I do tend to forget about using lifts in favour of making stairs. I find stairs easier to mess around with, whilst lifts require activation lines, careful work if there's to be more than one sector involved and extra textures to be put in, plus they break up the flow.

Very handy for getting out of nukage with a penalty to health, though.

[geekmarine]

I use lifts so infrequently I can, off the top of the head, name exactly one time I've put a lift in a map I released - a map I made for Freedoom. Honestly, I just find stairs more aesthetically appealing, and I enjoy the process of making them. The one time I did use a lift, though, it was because in the context of the level, it made much more sense (it was a loading-bay type area with a large drop - obviously if you're gonna be moving large crates around, you're gonna need a lift).

I will say, I like when lifts are used in maps to create a sense of claustrophobia and force a confrontation. You know, you enter a room where the only way to the next section is by a lift, preventing you from seeing or planning for what you might face at the other end of the lift. You know, create a sense of dread by lowering the player into what might be an ambush.

[scifista42]

Phobus said:

Very handy for getting out of nukage with a penalty to health, though.

I used to find it a good use of lifts, but I don't think so anymore. When I play, I'm glad when I can easily get out of nukage without a delay.

To reduce the delaying aspect of lifts, there's also the possibility to connect them to walkover actions, triggering the lift some time before you reach it. Doom Episode 1 is quite full of such places. Or there can be switch-activated timed lifts, placed further from the switch so you need to run some distance (=>minimum waiting delay). But this gimmick shouldn't be made too harsh, otherwise it can be annoying.

[Gez]

Lifts are to stairs what doors are to corridors. They break the flow and take less space.

[SFoZ911]

I would like to add that its really depends on the map design. I have nothing against both of them, they both serve the same purpose but are diffrent visually.

Its also a matter of aesthetics IMO...

[MFG38]

Gez said:

Lifts are to stairs what doors are to corridors. They break the flow and take less space.

That's pretty much how I'd describe them.

[Koko Ricky]

You gotta use them appropriately. Waiting for a long lift while baddies are coming at you can be a fun challenge. Walking up a long, ominous flight of stairs can be creepy.

[printz]

Lifts are more realistic than stairs, that's for sure. In real life, stairs are dangerous and must be run either slowly or carefully. In Doom, they're just a steep alternative to flat corridors. Consequently, in Doom, travelling by lifts is slower than by stairs, contrary to real life. I guess lifts are popular in Doom because of that suspension of disbelief.

[40oz]

I've been trying to get in the habit of using lifts before fightzones. With stairs, corridors, or doors it's very easy to flee the scene and escape a deadly trap. With lifts, if you attempt to escape the way you came, the monsters will group up at the top or the bottom of the lift, waiting to pounce, so normally the best choice for the player is to endure the trap. Lifts are a little more inconspicuous compared to doors shutting behind you and are less tricky to make too.

[printz]

I've always considered Doom lifts to be pretty dumb. They always seemed to be activated randomly when you were walking around.

[wesleyjohnson]

I have never liked the Lifts I find in levels because they force the player into a desperate fight with no escape. Not my style of play. With a lift the style of play is forced upon you. The number and kind of monsters waiting for the player is usually unknown.

Lifts are easier to make quickly.

With stairs there is tread length, height and the number of treads
to deal with.
They play better though and are worth the trouble.
The player can use many styles of sneak and attack, and maybe retreat.
Much more satisfying to have some control over what you are doing.

Controlling Monsters on the stairs is easy enough. Narrow treads, no monsters. Wide treads are easy for monsters. Tread widths in between slows them down.

[RjY]

I also as a player prefer stairs over lifts because they don't slow you down. Similarly, I prefer fast doors that stay open, fast lifts over slow ones, and those wretched perpetual platforms are for decoration only if you please :-)

I think Doom's lifts are backwards. There'd be less waiting around if they rested at the bottom, went up when activated, paused, and descended again. If you're at the top you can just hurl yourself down the lift shaft with reckless abandon because the game doesn't have falling damage.

More seriously I think "instant" lifts (lower to HEF to raise, raise to LIC to lower) can be used if stairs won't fit (e.g. are too steep, create visplane limit problems, etc.)

[TimeOfDeath]

Stairs because they're so fun to run on and they look cool, but sometimes you gotta put a lift.

RjY said:

and those wretched perpetual platforms are for decoration only if you please :-)

heh, reminds me of a 90's wad where there's a large room with several of those around the perimeter that you have to go up/down on each one. It literally takes forever.

[NiuHaka]

I love lifts when used well. Lifts can be used to the players benefit, not just as traps. I've always believed that lifts are done well by more advanced mappers.

One simple example of a lift that i like is when there is an open area and in the center is a lift which holds any number of monsters surrounding something you need or want. You have the option of picking them off safely at range or lowering the lift to disperse the monsters and save ammo. I like that. There are many more examples of good lifts. It's not complicated and its not a trap. It saves space, adds game-play, and keeps the player moving. Stairs wouldn't be able to add interesting game-play like that. I think stairs mostly just assist in visuals and flow between height variations.

...Or maybe i'm just not clever enough to recognize clever stair usage.

[scifista42]

RjY said:

I think Doom's lifts are backwards. There'd be less waiting around if they rested at the bottom, went up when activated, paused, and descended again.

You can set it up like this: When the lift is up and you stay in the bottom and press it, it instantly descends to the floor using a SR Floor Raise To Lowest Ceiling action (in combination with a dummy sector with low ceiling). Upon stepping in, the lift raises using a WR Raise To Next Higher Floor (Fast) action. That should save time and make the lift more comfortable to use, but the instant descent might look weirdly.

[NuMetalManiak]

lifts are not really good to use, as they require action/tag lines and stuff to make. people who like to rush levels have to wait a while for lifts which takes time away. plus they are terrible for deathmatch maps in general.

[Darch]

I like when lifts can be activated by monsters so you can get some vertical action from Zombies and Arachnotrons, for example.

[scifista42]

I also remember wads which have lifts where the active lowering platform covers a large area, sometimes very large. These can be interesting.

A good usage of a lift may also be, when you don't really need to ride the lift up. You just need to press it, grab the item standing on it and move away, not wasting time anymore.

As it was already mentioned, I also agree that it's good that fast lifts exist, to quickly overcome a huge height difference relatively quickly and on a small area without steep stairs. Contrarily to slow lifts, they're never activated by monsters, which you can use as an advantage as well.

[Boingo]

Lifts make my shoes taller.

[clamgor]

It all really and obviously depends on the circumstances. I like lifts myself, since they're easier to make, but annoying to play on. I avoid either one as much as possible.

[printz]

scifista42 said:

You can set it up like this: When the lift is up and you stay in the bottom and press it, it instantly descends to the floor using a SR Floor Raise To Lowest Ceiling action (in combination with a dummy sector with low ceiling). Upon stepping in, the lift raises using a WR Raise To Next Higher Floor (Fast) action. That should save time and make the lift more comfortable to use, but the instant descent might look weirdly.

I've always found lifts like the one at the start of in E1M8 ominous because of the sound and slow speed, and not least, the risk of getting it stuck upwards forever.

[scifista42]

Crasger said:

I avoid either one as much as possible.

What, so you make flat maps? That's not exactly good approach, you know. :p

Seriously - I think it was mentioned - both stairs and lifts, as "structural elements", take a role at making the environment believable or visually interesting (and varied). There you have their importance.

Maybe I'll better leave this thread already, I might have exaggerated it with my frequent posting.

[clamgor]

scifista42 said:

What, so you make flat maps? That's not exactly good approach, you know. :p

Heh. Actually I like making stairs for the maps, makes them look a bit more interesting. It just feels tedious. In fact one time, I just used stair-building linedefs to construct ones for me as the player unwittingly triggers them. Of course, I had to texture the stairs first-- in fact I feel as though that was twice as tedious as before.

Anyway, I think I may have exaggerated a bit in what I've said.

[joe-ilya]

If you don't like something, mix it.
Stairs with a lift, K?