Advocating Bullying? [WTF]

[Technician]

Zed said:

Hehe, you crazy Americans. You know how we fight bullying in Mexico? We don't.

First world problems.

[Aoi_Shinigami]

Welp, i have got quite a few memories to convey myself...

...So the first school i've been to was closed down after i went through 2nd grade, and i got myself into another school, that sure was a rollercoaster of fucking bullshit, memories of which STILL haunt me to this day (since summer 2011).
Seven years of name-calling, humiliation, assaults and all the other bullshit. A whole bunch of rich kids, and the offsprings of other people who had any influence on society. My family had none. All this time, each and every single one of those bastards plus myself were the national minority, and i thought we'd just team up or something. I was wrong.
The biggest incident i had was in 2010. My backpack was taken away and hidden. I found it, and laughed, thinking of it as if it was a school year's end joke (summer was near). Soon after, one of the gals i liked was told shitty jokes about me (yes, i was gullible enough to think i had chances after a week-long friendzone), so i decided to beat the shit out of him, which failed 'cause he was an asshole. He dropped me skull on the floor and decided to beat the crap out of me, and then just ran away. Just another fight, where i badly damaged a radiator in the process. Just as always, i recieved most damages without even starting it...
What's so special? Well, guess what, i had one teacher and at least a dozen of classmates as witnesses, and some other teachers and a social worker went on my side, but even then, i almost got expelled. Obvious as flying fuck that i always was the victim for no reason. You try to negotiate, you try to fight back, but FUCK YOU! You're getting fucked up a lot, you're forced to become a fucking conformist, you're lead to suicide attempts, and they all say I am the one who's wrong.
Being a russian person in Estonia is already bad enough (although nobody cares these days), but on top of it, i was in the lowest position in the class hierarchy. People hated me in class, and people hated me at home as well. Every time i asked the supposed "fellows" why was i the target, i always got the answer: "Because you were born". (And that's when i realised that i fucking HATE russians)

[Technician]

Yup, zero tolerance-ism. Ironically that's the only thing this crusade against bullying can accomplish. People think we can selectively pick the bullies from the bullied when conflicts happen.

[clamgor]

The world is a fucked up place. No time for playing the victim card.

[BaronOfStuff]

Pure Hellspawn said:

i can relate bullying to the holocaust...

germany 1930s. think of it as a high school. the nazis were the bullies, the jocks. the ordinary germans were just your ordinary german kids. jews were the nerds. 'nuff said.

Yeah, the bullies at my school would frequently send trains of nerds away to be gassed and you just had to invoke Godwin straight away, didn't you. Jesus fucking Christ. Never post again.

[Doomkid]

Thanks for all the responses of all kinds. No one was full of shit in their responses as far as I can tell, reaffirming why Doomworld is one of the few places on the web you can actually have a conversation.

From all this, I'm gathering that fighting back is the only solution when no one else will lift a finger. I've seen what geekmarine (and others) said to be true many times, if you fight back, you're often in worse trouble than the perpetrator, but at the very least, you can (attempt) to send the message that you won't take someone else's bullshit.

I'd do what Kontra Kommando suggested, and take the issue up with the other child's parents. In a roundabout way, it's them who is responsible for their child being a little nugget of shit, after all.

There will never be a perfect solution to any problem, but I don't think ignoring it is the smartest option. It's just the easiest one, it doesn't teach any lesson and helps no one, neither the one harassing nor the harassed. Seems like fairly old-world logic.

I agree with Fraggle in that "social Darwinism" is a term created to justify lunacy. Anyone who genuinely thinks this is a sustainable hierarchy for modern society must not actually be capable of considering the long term outcomes - this goes well beyond the borders of harassment, of course.

Additionally, I don't think of "name calling" as bullying so much, as it's an act of cowardess in the first place. Teach your kids that if they get called names, it either comes from a place of jealousy or of insecurity on the other persons part; when viewed that way, it actually becomes hilarious. When I was younger and was put into that position, my frinds thought briefly that I had learned to laugh at myself, but I think they realized I actually came to find the comedy in the "bully" getting angrier that he couldn't get a rise out of me.

Again, thanks for all the responses. It was nice to see contrary points being delivered in a non-whackjob fashion.

[clamgor]

Well, YouTube comments have always been cestpools of idiocy.

Doomworld doesn't do that. If we have users like that they don't usually last long and are soon after turned into losers. Their posts, banished in Post Hell. Never to return, unless they have a change of heart.

[printz]

Doomkid said:

From all this, I'm gathering that fighting back is the only solution when no one else will lift a finger. I've seen what geekmarine (and others) said to be true many times, if you fight back, you're often in worse trouble than the perpetrator, but at the very least, you can (attempt) to send the message that you won't take someone else's bullshit.

Be absolutely aware that you mustn't fight back so hard so as to kill them! Even if your mind may be thinking of it, you will feel totally shocked and regretful and criminal if you do it. Keep in mind that you just want to appear as stronger than him, not destroy him, and that implies keeping him around.

[clamgor]

printz said:

Be absolutely aware that you mustn't fight back so hard so as to kill them!

But it is definitely an option if the circumstances permit you to leave scot-free. Those are rare cases, though.

[printz]

Crasger said:

But it is definitely an option if the circumstances permit you to leave scot-free. Those are rare cases, though.

Why would you want to remove someone from existence? They're humans too, can be good people once they get over their power trips. I don't mean criminals who just want your possessions.

[clamgor]

printz said:

Why would you want to remove someone from existence? They're humans too, can be good people once they get over their power trips.

Indeed. I wouldn't do it when faced with the option, but I just stated that that's a viable option to choose from. Obviously anyone who takes that path will end up on the news.

[Phml]

I'm on the "man up" side. Which doesn't mean go punch a dude, but rather stop trying so hard to look punchable.

Yeah some people are bullied because of circumstances they can't avoid, and this sucks. Others go out of their way to be special little snowflakes different from the unwashed masses, then they act surprised when the very same people they hold in contempt react with anger and violence.

It's not going to hurt you any to conform to expected social norms in public. It might even teach you a thing or two about different perspectives and other people.

[clamgor]

Phml said:

It's not going to hurt you any to conform to expected social norms in public. It might even teach you a thing or two about different perspectives and other people.

Indeed. Being labeled to a stereotype is annoying, though.

[geo]

Doomkid said:

Thanks for all the responses of all kinds. No one was full of shit in their responses as far as I can tell, reaffirming why Doomworld is one of the few places on the web you can actually have a conversation.

From all this, I'm gathering that fighting back is the only solution when no one else will lift a finger. I've seen what geekmarine (and others) said to be true many times, if you fight back, you're often in worse trouble than the perpetrator, but at the very least, you can (attempt) to send the message that you won't take someone else's bullshit.

There's no place I can truly be myself like Doomworld. The whole anonymity of it all I can tell the horrible stories without fear of them getting back to me. I wouldn't have mentioned the stories on other forums or to people in real life.

I literally do not know anyone still after graduating college. The past gets cut from my life, but I'll still always remember :-)

[geo]

Crasger said:

Jesus christ, man. That's one fucked up town. Everyone there deserves to die or get arrested or something.

Either it's that or you're totally making this up.

I don't think that I could make it up if I tried. If you go collecting my stories from Doom World it should paint one fucked up picture. The town has really expanded, I think its gone from a population of 500 people to 10,000 over the years. There just weren't enough people to give a fuck.

[Doomkid]

Phml said:

Others go out of their way to be special little snowflakes different from the unwashed masses, then they act surprised when the very same people they hold in contempt react with anger and violence.

Thankfully I was never like that. I never had anyone bully me physically, and being called named was quite rare. I was lucky in that respect, but I know of people who were beat up or at least got into fights for no reason. Overall it seems silly, really.

printz said:

Be absolutely aware that you mustn't fight back so hard so as to kill them!

Hahah, this made me laugh, but it's true. Some people go overboard on those kinds of moments, but I'm not that type of person.

geo said:

There's no place I can truly be myself like Doomworld. The whole anonymity of it all I can tell the horrible stories without fear of them getting back to me. I wouldn't have mentioned the stories on other forums or to people in real life.

It's quite an awesome place, for both Doom and non-doom related topics!

[ducon]

fraggle said:

The only people who ever use this term seriously are psychopaths excusing their own horrible unethical behavior.

They are also believing that their own (stinking) opinions are science.
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents.html

[geo]

Doomkid said:

It's quite an awesome place, for both Doom and non-doom related topics!

There's also the feel of an age bracketing since its a 20 year old game. I assume that the majority of us are at least 30+. So I don't have fear of 13 year olds posting, 'if you were bullied so much, why didn't you kill yourself?' Like you'll see on Youtube.

[clamgor]

geo said:

I think its gone from a population of 500 people to 10,000 over the years. There just weren't enough people to give a fuck.

Man, keep on putting up with them, if you can't under any circumstance escape. It takes brass balls to survive that shitstorm. I salute 'ya.

Have you left the town? Have you tried?

[BaronOfStuff]

Stupid true story about my experience with bullying:
I'd just started Secondary school (11 years old), and someone who was obviously hot shit in his last year of Primary felt like he needed to assert his double-digit IQ authority on someone to show us all he was The Big Man and continue feeling like Lord of the Playground. That someone turned out to be me. I wasn't a 'big' kid by any means; I've always been tall, but back then I was a fucking beanpole. I had lanky proportions that would make a Revenant look like a bodybuilder. I was also 'the quiet one' during lessons and hated answering questions, which probably made me look like an easy target too.

Anyway, long story short, he started the name-calling and finger-jabbing in my chest only three days into the first week, so I reacted by headbutting him square on the nose. He folded like a deckchair, fell flat on his stupid arse, and cried like a baby. Everyone took the piss out of him for months.

I don't actually know what the moral or even what the point of this story is, but I'm fairly sure it shows that school bullies are shitheads and cowards.

[Maes]

I'm surprised (both positively and negatively) at this recent trend of addressing "bullying" (or, as the technical term goes, "in-school violence") lately. Back in my day there was exactly zero caring about it, at least officially.

On the converse, during the recent local and euro elections, I visited a couple of schools where the electoral centres were set up, and I was surprised to find the walls plastered with anti-violence campaign posters, anti-violence works and essays by students, and other indications that bullying and school violence in all of its forms (verbal, physical, phychological) was being made into an important issue, to be tackled day by day, by everyone.

On the one hand, this was positive: it's the first time I recally there being any sort of official acknowledgment of the phenomenon, let alone any sort of organized action against it (though I suspect it's largely informational, and more of a hype or fashion driven by international trends). Has the educational system and society really evolved to be more sensitive? Wow.

When I went to school, of course there were bullies and even organized "gangs" within the school, but usually the worst that could happen would be a fistfight, some pulled hair, some bite marks, a couple of black eyes and a visit to the headmaster's office, who'd sternly admonish both "sides" (at most with some ear pulling, a slap and maybe caning) before sending them on their way. To be fair, repeat offenders were rare, as they got the message that bullying that particular person would be more trouble than it'd be worth, at least within school. So yeah, the expected "solution" was indeed "growing a pair" and causing as much trouble as the bullies themselves. Greek 80s pedagogical values FTW [/sarcasm]

Unless someone got seriously injured in school and there was obvious juvenile delinquency involved (e.g. using a knife) the approach of teachers and even of the parents & caretakers unions was more that of "damage control", than anything: they didn't really care about who were the "bad guys" (systematic bullies) and who the victims in those petty squabbles, and considered them just part of growing up, apparently, something that each kid had to deal with himself. Don't wanna get bullied? Fight back, get both the bullies and yourself in trouble, then they'll stop. Not ideal, but it worked. And anything happening outside of school? Well, not really the school's business. They couldn't handle in-school bullying, let alone everybody's neighborhood bullying.

On the other hand (the negative impression I was talking about...), could this sudden sensitivization mean that today school violence is more prevalent/of a more serious than 10 or 20 years ago?

[geo]

Crasger said:

Man, keep on putting up with them, if you can't under any circumstance escape. It takes brass balls to survive that shitstorm. I salute 'ya.

Have you left the town? Have you tried?

I've left the town yeah, my mother and aunt haven't. Farmer's children never move far. My grandparent's farm is still there, even though they've passed on.

Its funny, my grandfather used to own the town. Literally. He owned all of the land, and when the town needed to expand, they bought his land and he was happy to do it. He wanted the people to come to him. He always sold the cheapest crops, because again he wanted the people to come to him. Now that he's passed on, people still come to him. He couldn't farm all of his land himself, so he ended up selling a lot of land to other farmers.... when he should have rented it to them.

I've had to defend my grand parent's farm against scrappers, scavengers, thieves and spray painters. I've personally boxed in two guys robbing my grandparent's farm. When I blocked them in, I had the cops on the phone and had the phone in my pocket. One of the two guys was just swearing at me up and down to let them go. I just stood there silent, because if I talked, that would escalate things and I was just there to stall them. So I didn't talk. That enraged the curser. It drove him nuts that I just didn't talk at all. The other guy eventually tried to reason with me. It would fuck up their lives, he had a scholarship, he was going somewhere in life and he didn't want it to fuck up his life. They didn't want me calling the cops, but again, I called the cops, phone was in my pocket so the cops could hear everything. Cops arrived from 3 townships, because the guy was swearing, they thought there would be a murder so they sent everybody.

The cops have caught several people at the farm, but not before the shed (giant barn for tools) was robbed blind of all metal. The house was broken into twice. Silver spoons with the family name engraved were stolen off the walls.

Two years ago one of the barns was spray painted, the whole side. We thought it was a gang thing from the neighboring town is pretty fucking ghetto. My mom and my aunt told me not to call the cops, it would only escalate things and they'd come back and burn the place down. Well fuck that. So I told the cops, reported it. The cops love the farm to sit and watch for speeders. But since I reported it, the cops bluntly told me they would now get out of their vehicle and look around, its now on their list to do so.

Anyway, thankfully I reported it. Kids were caught a month later, and when I was taking the cops around we found 2 cans of energy drinks. Cops took the cans. A month later I found the same can on the property and brought it to the cops. A year later the kids had their trial.

So after all of those stories, my grand parents still have land. Too much land to be sold at once. My mom has been tasked with selling it all. Its been an extremely long process to the point that I think the 'housing wave' has passed by the town. In the 90s came the land boom where farmers died and their land was sold to build houses. Those farmers that my grand father had sold his land to. When my grandfather was dying, he fought the land sales, saying there was a contingency that the land would only be used to farm. No one gave a shit. Residential taxes yield more money than agriculture taxes.

The town wants to expedite the sale of my grand father's land, so they constantly raise the taxes on farmed land. Well his land is literally the only farm land in the town. So what the fuck? The land is rented out to a dick of a farmer that doesn't want to deal with women when it comes to talking about farm land. He prefers to talk to me. If the land stops being farmed, it will be taxed as residential and well imagine if you had to pay your rent 12,000 times. You'd go broke.

The process to sell the land is taking so long that I have started to be brought into negotiation meetings, because one day I will inherit this bullshit.

The town has made the family tear down one of the stables, because the roof was beginning to collapse and that wasn't cheap, because it was a modern building, made of cinder block with a cement foundation and basement. One day the house will need to go. I think when that is finally forced to go, I'll have to pay for that one, but its cool. My cousins tell me someone should fix up the house and live in it. Nah fuck that eyesore. Bulldoze it :-) The house is 120 years old back when the town was just 1 street 5 miles away next to a railway.

In the past 15 years when the town needs land to build schools, clinics, a hospital and a fire station, they came to the family to buy the land. Heck I remember when the super attendant of schools was trying to woo my widowed grandmother so he could get land from her. At some point he wanted 100 acres.... for a school. The school needs 100 acres. Totally.

Sorry to totally derail the bully topic, but in one respect, it can be seen as bullying to push the family to just insta sell the land for as little as possible. 80 acres have been sold, but housing developments just don't want that much and after 15 years, there is cheaper land outside of the town. Thanks for tolerating these posts.

[geekmarine]

Maes said:

On the other hand (the negative impression I was talking about...), could this sudden sensitivization mean that today school violence is more prevalent/of a more serious than 10 or 20 years ago?

I don't think it's any more prevalent... I think there's just an acknowledgment that if a kid is being beaten up regularly under supposed "adult supervision," those adults may have to answer for letting such things take place under their watch. Of course, that's all purely from a liability perspective - eh, no one wants to get sued when the next Colombine happens or what have you.

Outside of token gestures to avoid lawsuits, though, I don't think anyone cares more now than they ever did. Which, I gotta be honest, I've never really understood why adults never seemed all that interested in dealing with the problem of bullying. It almost seemed to me when I was a kid that they were afraid the bullies would target them next or something if they intervened - could never figure out in my head what made them so hesitant to get involved in what to me was straightforward matter of harassment and a violation of school rules.

Which reminds me, another problem with this whole "Grow a pair," business - you're basically telling kids that even though there are rules in place, just completely disregard the rules, don't expect anyone else to follow them, don't expect help if the rules are violated, and it's perfectly fine to violate the rules yourself if it suits your needs. While I'm not always the biggest fan of rules, just seems to me to be an odd thing to want to teach children - "Rules aren't there for your benefit, they just hold you back. It's better to ignore the rules."

[geo]

printz said:

I've never been bullied as an adult. Taunted or heckled maybe, but nothing too much to be easily countered with a comeback.

Yeah I think we all have been as adults. Taunting and heckling is fine.... unless you're a comedian :-)

[Maes]

geekmarine said:

I don't think it's any more prevalent... I think there's just an acknowledgment that if a kid is being beaten up regularly under supposed "adult supervision," those adults may have to answer for letting such things take place under their watch.

...

Which, I gotta be honest, I've never really understood why adults never seemed all that interested in dealing with the problem of bullying.

You nailed the problem right there: the duties of "adult supervision" and the authority those "adult supervisors" have is much more limited than you think. I recall teachers just sitting it out in their office during recreation, and there was maybe one assigned to "yard duty", which meant that a large yard with a lot of hidden and out of view areas was impossible to supervise.

geekmarine said:

I've never really understood why adults never seemed all that interested in dealing with the problem of bullying.

Teachers and janitors are not policemen or social workers, so they don't have neither the authority, the legal "tools" or the training/ability to comprehend what's really going on and intervene. They just want to stay out of trouble as much as possible, so not "dealing with the problem of bullying" is simply a case of "it's not my job, man".

geekmarine said:

It almost seemed to me when I was a kid that they were afraid the bullies would target them next or something if they intervened - could never figure out in my head what made them so hesitant to get involved in what to me was straightforward matter of harassment and a violation of school rules.

As above, often those "school rules" often do not grant them any formal power or duty to intervene, they do not deputize them to be "law enforcers" within the school boundaries, and do not define clear "rules of engagement" with the "enemy", so to speak. They are treading in a somewhat murky legal territory. After all, schoolchildren are not prisoners, teachers are not wardens and schools are not prisons, where the rules are enforced (though sometimes only selectively) and where the hierarchy, duties and authority of guards towards inmates are clearly defined.

[clamgor]

geo said:

Taunting and heckling is fine.... unless you're a comedian :-)

I think taunting and heckling is a part of the comedian experience. You can't be an established comedian without someone heckling you and you destroying them entirely and making the audience laugh.

I guess we could all learn a few things from the way comedians deal with hecklers.

[geo]

Crasger said:

I think taunting and heckling is a part of the comedian experience. You can't be an established comedian without someone heckling you and you destroying them entirely and making the audience laugh.

I guess we could all learn a few things from the way comedians deal with hecklers.

I remember a comedian in an interview explaining you can make fun of any celebrity as a comedian... except other comedians, because they're very insecure, depressed people.

[clamgor]

geo said:

you can make fun of any celebrity as a comedian... except other comedians, because they're very insecure, depressed people.

Probably played for laughs, but this is somewhat true for some comedians. I guess they became comedians because they wanted to release their load after being fucked with all their lives, y'know?

[CorSair]

Maes said:

Teachers and janitors are not policemen or social workers, so they don't have neither the authority, the legal "tools" or the training/ability to comprehend what's really going on and intervene. They just want to stay out of trouble as much as possible, so not "dealing with the problem of bullying" is simply a case of "it's not my job, man".

Oh yeah, that's one thing. Even in here, any physical interaction to stop brawlers might ensue legal issue. And they can't even shove badly behaving students out from class, except only commanding (guess how well that works?) And worst cases, teachers are getting abused, even threatened, and to add misery, parents increase the flak if there's been problems with their "baby".
Best case was when headmaster put a teen smoker write an essay about dangers and facts about smoking, as a second session. And smoking in school's area is usually prohibited. Guess what kind racket parents gave.

All coming from country that has been labeled as #1 with best schools by some sites and magazines. :V

[geo]

Crasger said:

Probably played for laughs, but this is somewhat true for some comedians. I guess they became comedians because they wanted to release their load after being fucked with all their lives, y'know?

Make jokes to laugh off a problem rather than dealing with the problem. I'm sure I have the same coping mechanism. Life is a comedy, no matter how tragic.

Maybe comedians can't make fun of other comedians, because it would be seen as professional jealousy... but celebs its not professional jealousy, yet you're all entertainers, its just not the same genre of entertainment. idk bullies.