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hardcore_gamer

Has Brutal Doom made Doom popular with the masses again?

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I know there are mixed feelings about Brutal Doom in the Doom community, but after seeing Totalhalibut do a sort of a WTF is... of Brutal Doom and seeing all kinds of people who normally take no interest in Doom play Doom because of Brutal Doom, I can't help but wonder if Brutal Doom has helped make Doom popular again outside of the small hardcore Doom crowd.

Do you think that Brutal Doom might have caused a sort of a "new wave" of Doom popularity with general gamers that did not exist before?

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Yes, it has, but not in a positive way. BD is pretty much the most opinion-dividing mod at the moment, and there are numerous legions of BD fanboys who claim that it's the best mod ever and the way id intended it from the get-go. Then there's the other half of people who condemn BD to the deepest circles of Hell to rot for all eternity. I can see why BD has gotten so popular and I can respect that, but honestly, the never-ending BD fanboyism/bashing is not fun for anyone.

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Not really. All of the people who played Doom simply because of Brutal basically seem to play just Brutal Doom and nothing else. Doom never really lost popularity, imo, considering there's still tons of new content and people playing it twenty years later.

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Dooms 20th birthday brought in a lot of people.

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BaronOfStuff said:

No. It's only made itself popular.


A mod or no, you need Doom to play Brutal Doom, so you are still playing Doom even if it is heavily modded.

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hardcore_gamer said:

A mod or no, you need Doom to play Brutal Doom, so you are still playing Doom even if it is heavily modded.

And the majority never play Doom without the mod. Read between the lines.

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I played through all of Doom E1 for the first time 2 and a half years ago, and it was largely with / because of BD (I had played tons of Heretic as a kid, but never Doom).

Then I decided to turn BD off and see what the real thing was like, and had a ton more fun with it. So yeah, BD helped. Even if it gets just one person to try Doom and switch over, that's still one person who wouldn't have otherwise.

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BaronOfStuff said:

And the majority never play Doom without the mod. Read between the lines.


Let me ask you a question, how many people today do you think still play pure vanilla Doom?

I bet 90% of the people on this very forum including the ones that hate on Brutal Doom still use some kind of source port to play it.

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That's a meaningless distinction, since many ports are used to essentially stabilize and perhaps extend the game world without fundamentally modifying the principles on which it operates. Brutal Doom, as a very involved gameplay mod, changes those principles in very drastic ways, meaning that the gap in core experience between vanilla doom2.exe and even the most GZDoom-y GZDoom PWAD is liable to be far smaller than the one between vanilla doom2.exe and something from doom2.wad played with Brutal Doom.

The answer to the question is that the Doom community and the Brutal Doom community are, for the most part, separate and only nebulously-related entities, like two similar cities across a great river. Sometimes a person will emigrate from one to the other, but for the most part they are separate and have relatively little to do with each other, precisely because they value very different things about their core commonality, that being playing the game Doom in one form or another.

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People having fun using the doom wads, the most advanced source port etc is awesome!

Personally I find BD tiring after a few minutes. But it does things that I thought impossible. I mean, wow...

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hardcore_gamer said:

I bet 90% of the people on this very forum including the ones that hate on Brutal Doom still use some kind of source port to play it.

Hey, I play vanilla. D: In fact, any mod that claims to be vanilla compatible is guaranteed to get a trial-by-fire in DosBox once I get my hands on it.

Also, this.

(On a side note, you'd be amazed at how many supposedly vanilla compatible wads really aren't.)

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What's that? you beat a hard/slaughter map specifically tailored for vanilla AI/weapons/etc?

"Now imagine playing with BRUTAL DOOM"

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7hm said:

I played through all of Doom E1 for the first time 2 and a half years ago, and it was largely with / because of BD (I had played tons of Heretic as a kid, but never Doom).

Then I decided to turn BD off and see what the real thing was like, and had a ton more fun with it. So yeah, BD helped. Even if it gets just one person to try Doom and switch over, that's still one person who wouldn't have otherwise.

This needs to be quoted.

Brutal Doom didn't bring players back to classic Doom in a mass measure, but let's not forget that each person is individual, and just plays what he finds enjoyable. Brutal Doom probably helped to bring attention to... well, itself... but the classic Doom as well. People tried it out, and: Some of them became interested and stayed with Brutal Doom and had fun. Some people took the opportunity to try out classic Doom, perhaps some of them didn't find it that good, so they returned to (Brutal Doom and) their games, and had fun again. And some people might have found classic Doom enjoyable, and from their own interest they got involved in the Doom community - and found fun in it. You see? It depends on the person, whether it was all initiated by Brutal Doom or anything else.

There's the point. Brutal Doom deserves props for at least letting people know about Doom, and then everyone has dealt with it as he wanted. Many people had fun, some people got their way into the classic Doom community, and (unfortunately) a lot of people started to argue instead of just enjoying what they personally enjoy.

So I think it's goo that BD exists, if I judge it from this aspect of influencing people. And if I judge it as a mod, I find good and bad things on it, and don't regularly play Doom with it. I'm generally not too much into gameplay mods, I prefer Doom in its classic form. That's how I see it, and I think everyone has the right to see it in his own way, as he likes.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Do you think that Brutal Doom might have caused a sort of a "new wave" of Doom popularity with general gamers that did not exist before?


bear, woods, etc.

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BlueFeena said:

(On a side note, you'd be amazed at how many supposedly vanilla compatible wads really aren't.)

Considering how often I specifically load up vanilla/Chocolate when someone says their level is vanilla-compatible, only for the map to be rendered broken by doing so, I'm not amazed at all.

And I've actually had friends get interested in Doom thanks to Brutal Doom. But it seemed to only be a short-lived affair before they went back to playing Titanfall or whatever it is people play now.

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BaronOfStuff said:

No. It's only made itself popular.


This.

I don't consider "Brutal Doom" to be a part of "Doom family". It's a separate game with a separate community 99% of whom couldn't care less about unmodded DOOM, its numerous WADs, map making, speedrunning etc.

To each their own, everyone plays what they want, but it pisses me off when I hear that "id wanted DOOM to be like that from the get go" effectively dismissing DOOM's legacy as some sort of a "necessary evil" instead of a terrific game, which it was, is and will be.

One "Brutal Doom" fan I spoke to claimed that the mod's best feature was the ability to give monsters the finger and exclaim "go fuck yourself!", cause it's SO BADASS. I also used to consider such stuff "badass", but then I turned 10.

And that's what I think of "Brutal Doom" mostly - a game for kids who think that the only way to improve gameplay is to add more violence, swear words and probably boobs, knowing their mentality.

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Patrol1985 said:

And that's what I think of "Brutal Doom" mostly - a game for kids who think that the only way to improve gameplay is to add more violence, swear words and probably boobs, knowing their mentality.

Now you've gone and spoiled v20.

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I must say I find it very annoying when people state that all Brutal Doom actually adds is more gore. It's just so far away from the truth.

What seperates Brutal Doom from other mods to me is that it actually changes the gameplay itself and gives it more depth. Things like headshots and locational damage, as well as the ability to regain health when in berserk mode, means that you consider combat options you would not do otherwise. Before there was no real reason to fight barons up-close, but now there is because the SSG can kill him with 2 or 3 shots now if you shot him in the face with it. This is then balanced by the fact that the baron can now grap you and insta-kill you if you get too close. The game just feels and plays different in general. I guess that is why some hate it, but for me it's the reason I love it.

Anybody who says Brutal Doom adds and changes nothing other than gore is talking about of his ass. It's just as much a gameplay mod as it is a gore mod.

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hardcore_gamer said:

I must say I find it very annoying when people state that all Brutal Doom actually adds is more gore. It's just so far away from the truth.

What seperates Brutal Doom from other mods to me is that it actually changes the gameplay itself and gives it more depth.

Isn't "actually changing the gameplay" basically the exact definition of a gameplay mod? There are lots of those. How is that specific to Brutal Doom?

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I wonder if the people who dislike Brutal Doom also dislike Beautiful Doom or Russian Overkill...

I like Brutal Doom (and the other two I mentioned), but I rarely play with it. It tends to break some maps (especially those made with a strict ammo balance), some others become nearly impossible... but I don't dislike it. It actually makes some "94 wads" a little more enjoyable, for example.

EDIT

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hardcore_gamer said:

Before there was no real reason to fight barons up-close, but now there is because the SSG can kill him with 2 or 3 shots now if you shot him in the face with it.

Actually, killing barons with the super shotgun is pretty standard practice for a lot of people, I'd think, since even the vanilla super shotgun is (too) powerful, and shotgun shells are plentiful. In particular, vanilla Ultimate Doom players may even use berserk punches against barons, since the SSG isn't available, and rockets are too dangerous for close-quarters combat.

I'm not disagreeing that Brutal Doom gives you different combat options, however. In particular, I appreciate how handy the rifle is, compared to its lowly, near-useless vanilla counterpart, the pistol.

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Brutal Doom is good in bursts but not all the time, even I who have a channel initially dedicated to it is becoming more of a general Doom channel with both BD and non-BD content.

There is a guy on Steam who added me who thinks Doom is not Doom without Brutal Doom, I facepalmed pretty hard.

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Brutal Doom is a rather touchy subject.

You know, considering that its author, who encouraged a dude to kill himself over a public forum still has support from his legions of fanboys.

I play it, sometimes. The gore is kinda satisfying.
It breaks maps with some of its OP monsters, though.

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Which is why the enemy attacks should not have been touched in the first place.

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Mr. Chris said:

There is a guy on Steam who added me who thinks Doom is not Doom without Brutal Doom, I facepalmed pretty hard.


I hate those types.

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Brutal Doom MIGHT made Doom more popular, but it's too controversial to talk about its influences so clearly.

Patrol1985 said:

I don't consider "Brutal Doom" to be a part of "Doom family". It's a separate game with a separate community 99% of whom couldn't care less about unmodded DOOM, its numerous WADs, map making, speedrunning etc.

To each their own, everyone plays what they want, but it pisses me off when I hear that "id wanted DOOM to be like that from the get go" effectively dismissing DOOM's legacy as some sort of a "necessary evil" instead of a terrific game, which it was, is and will be.

One "Brutal Doom" fan I spoke to claimed that the mod's best feature was the ability to give monsters the finger and exclaim "go fuck yourself!", cause it's SO BADASS. I also used to consider such stuff "badass", but then I turned 10.

And that's what I think of "Brutal Doom" mostly - a game for kids who think that the only way to improve gameplay is to add more violence, swear words and probably boobs, knowing their mentality.


I've never thought of it - definitely thought-provoking aspect.

However I don't think it's a problem. Doom have always been about fast action: running around like an idiot and shooting the shit out of everything that crosses you (even if that's the wall), and you know, if you are defeating Hell, then gore is a massive consequence of it.

I truly and honestly think that BD makes Doom better since it makes it more bloody while it keeps its spirit in gameplay terms. The same fast action with more gore! And I'm not the member of the "Brutal Doom generation". I don't even play that WAD regularly.

Though, in my view thinking middle-finger showing to monsters a "OMGWOWFUK badass" thing is kindof pathetic and hopeless.

TL;DR I used to play every WADs with AEons of Death back in the day, so I know the feeling when someone has an altered view about Doom stuff. However I admit both original and extended gameplay, and that's what everyone should do.

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