NOVA II: New Dawn - First status report in November | Still open for mappers!

[tourniquet]

I don't mind mapping in Boom format. Though i think we should at least "not" allow sky transfer and stick to EvilNed's custom skies.

[Skavenger216]

tourniquet said:

I don't mind mapping in Boom format. Though i think we should at least "not" allow sky transfer and stick to EvilNed's custom skies.

I dont mind using custom skies, although the one I have for my map currently fits it perfectly imo.

[tourniquet]

^ I'm afraid many others think the same about their custom sky and at last it results in a huge sky mess throughout the whole mapset.
I must admit that i'm rather concerned about all those vast changes in comparison to NOVA 1, still i'll bow to the majority.

[joe-ilya]

I have this abandoned map made in my early days which I think is cool, I'll try to finish it.

[plums]

I personally prefer limit-removing, but I have a pretty good handle on the technical aspects of map-making, and to be honest I have to say that Boom format is probably easier to work with for newbies.

tourniquet said:

I don't mind mapping in Boom format. Though i think we should at least "not" allow sky transfer and stick to EvilNed's custom skies.

Seconded. I feel like each map having its own sky, which is probably what will happen if sky transfers are allowed, will make the project feel much less consistent as a whole. If consistency is important, anyhow.

Should I just remove all the unnecessary skies from the texture pack?

[Springy]

plums said:

Should I just remove all the unnecessary skies from the texture pack?

I assume you mean those "wall skies" yeah, I can't remember the technical term so fucking what? I would say remove them if their primary use is for boom ports. I never understood the concept of those personally. I presume they are used for sky transfers, which I have never used in boom before.

[mouldy]

I think you should stick to complevel 2, not because its better or anything, but its what you specified at the start, and part of learning how to map for a community project is learning to work within whatever rules it imposes. Same goes with textures.

Its not that hard converting a boom map to doom 2 format, you might get a few problems to solve, but again thats just part of learning to map. And the fact is, while boom gives you access to all kinds of cool tricks, it isn't going to help you with basics like monster placement and a decent layout.

[kildeth]

Skavenger216 said:

Also, not to nitpick, but its "Unnatural Selection". The way that teleporter section works is anything but natural, lol XD

Sorry about getting the name wrong, I'm tired and I've got a sore hand. XD

I'm not getting your custom sky at all. I don't think fancy skies like that even work in my version of GZDoom.

We'll stick to limit-removing format for now then shall we? And yeah, those sky textures in the texture pack should probably be deleted if they're going to confuse people.

[plums]

OK, will delete them in an update later today. I'm also planning a mini tutorial on using your own custom textures in addition to the texture pack.

[7hm]

Just a suggestion for people - don't test with zdoom for vanilla compatibility. Use the actual exe, chocolate/crispy doom, or prboom+ with compat 2. If you set up db2 or gzbuilder properly (ie for d2, not boom or udmf or hexen or...) you dont even have to do anything special, because non vanilla options are blocked out.

Kildeth - which textures were animating?

[tourniquet]

kildeth said:

We'll stick to limit-removing format for now then shall we?

I totally agree. This will sort out any discussion about Sky Transfer.

[Springy]

plums said:

OK, will delete them in an update later today. I'm also planning a mini tutorial on using your own custom textures in addition to the texture pack.

As nice of you as it is to do this, allow me to ask one question; is the Slade tutorial not good enough? I noticed it's moved since I first used it.

[plums]

Springy said:

As nice of you as it is to do this, allow me to ask one question; is the Slade tutorial not good enough? I noticed it's moved since I first used it.

It's close (and in fact I was largely going to copy it) but there are a few differences for making a resource file that works alongside the existing texture pack. Thinking about it some more, the differences are small enough that I could probably just write those down.

In short: Copy PNAMES and TEXTURE1 from the texture pack into your own wad, and make sure the wad with your graphics gets loaded LAST on the command-line, or at the bottom of the DoomBuilder resource list. (For this reason it's probably best to make your own resource wadfile separate from your map.) And again, name your custom graphics with a unique prefix.

[CorSair]

kildeth said:

We'll stick to limit-removing format for now then shall we? And yeah, those sky textures in the texture pack should probably be deleted if they're going to confuse people.

Better go in what has been specified already, no point to confuse people any more. Make it clear that there isn't going to be any discussion about other ports. ;)
As for skies... Wouldn't some of them work better as textures? *looks at Plutonia E3 sky*

[jmickle66666666]

I don't mind getting rid of the sky transfers in my map, but replacing literally every single linedef action in my map is gonna be tedious.

I imagine this misunderstanding could have been solved by a proper explanation of what Limit-Removing actually means, but it seems the project lead isn't even entirely sure.

[Skavenger216]

kildeth said:

Sorry about getting the name wrong, I'm tired and I've got a sore hand. XD

I'm not getting your custom sky at all. I don't think fancy skies like that even work in my version of GZDoom.

We'll stick to limit-removing format for now then shall we? And yeah, those sky textures in the texture pack should probably be deleted if they're going to confuse people.

lol no worries. Its not a custom sky.. its just the one of the skies from stock doom 2. As far as not going boom format... that sucks. Gonna be a lot more work for me to convert my map now, and im already at a week of work on it :(

jmickle66666666 said:

I don't mind getting rid of the sky transfers in my map, but replacing literally every single linedef action in my map is gonna be tedious.

I imagine this misunderstanding could have been solved by a proper explanation of what Limit-Removing actually means, but it seems the project lead isn't even entirely sure.

Exactly how I feel. When i was initally starting my map i seen not to use 3d floors and limit removing, the way it was seemed to me when i looked it up, meant not using zdoom features and not being constrained by vanilla limits. I didnt realize UDMF wouldnt work until i was already 80% done with my map, and now, like i said, its gonna be a ton of work to convert it. Boom format would still be some work to convert, but not as bad.

Time for me to decide if im jut gonna start a new map for this project or actually work on converting mine, converting to cl2 is gonna be almost as much work as making a whole new map pretty much.

[7hm]

jmickle66666666 said:
I imagine this misunderstanding could have been solved by a proper explanation of what Limit-Removing actually means, but it seems the project lead isn't even entirely sure. [/B]

Limit removing means vanilla but without the limits. How do you play wads without knowing this? Even if you don't use prboom+, zdoom has compatibility options.

[Skavenger216]

7hm said:

Limit removing means vanilla but without the limits. How do you play wads without knowing this? Even if you don't use prboom+, zdoom has compatibility options.

Google "limit removing" and read the description the first couple results gives you, its obviously easily misunderstood, as me and jmickle both had this same misunderstanding of what limit removing actually meant.

And to be honest, the term "Limit Removing" is kinda misleading to begin with. For something thats supposed to be limit removing, there sure are a lot of limits and resrictions, lol.

[Phobus]

I'm fairly certain you can literally copy/paste from UDMF in one instance of DB2 to Doom 2 (or any other format) in a second instance and all you'll need to do then is set sector effects, line actions and tags. May need to realign textures depending on which kind of alignment you're using in UDMF and do stuff like not using FLATs on walls. It'll save you having to draw things out again. You could literally copy/paste the entire map and just redo Thing placement manually, taking the limited line actions and sector effects into account. I'm basing all of this off of having done the same thing with a Doom-in-Hexen format map, converting to Doom 2 format for CC4 MAP13.

[Skavenger216]

Phobus said:

I'm fairly certain you can literally copy/paste from UDMF in one instance of DB2 to Doom 2 (or any other format) in a second instance and all you'll need to do then is set sector effects, line actions and tags. May need to realign textures depending on which kind of alignment you're using in UDMF and do stuff like not using FLATs on walls. It'll save you having to draw things out again. You could literally copy/paste the entire map and just redo Thing placement manually, taking the limited line actions and sector effects into account.

I tried the copy/paste route, and while it does save me having to draw it all again, i still have to go and re-do each and every linedef, and my map has a ton of them

[7hm]

Skavenger216 said:

Google "limit removing" and read the description the first couple results gives you, its obviously easily misunderstood, as me and jmickle both had this same misunderstanding of what limit removing actually meant.

I don't mean to be a dick, but google "doom limit removing". The first result accurately describes how limit removing refers to using vanilla features but removing some of the hard limits inherent to the doom exes. The term itself is also perfectly descriptive.

[Salt-Man Z]

Yeah, I thought "limit-removing" was pretty self-explanatory, and then this thread explodes with a bunch of Boom maps. ?!

dobu gabu maru said:

Under the edit tab hit map options (this also appears when you boot up the map). You should always have Doom2.wad as a resource (if you're making a Doom 2 map), so all you have to do is click on "Add resource..." and select alldmtx1.wad (if Doom2 isn't added, just click on it). Both texture packs can then be used.

Ah, gotcha. That worked, thanks.

I spent 2-3 hours on my map last night and have very little to show for it, besides Baby's First 3-D Bridge (so cool) and a rough layout for the (admittedly very large) exit area. A couple more ideas percolating in my brain, so I'll likely need to take this map back to the pen-and-paper stage for a while.

[an_mutt]

I don't know exactly what's going on with this thread right now but as long as I'm allowed to use the blue moon sky from this plums post:

plums said:

then I'm golden. I'd prefer it if it was a sky for an entire episode and this project was kept limit-removing but I wouldn't mind having to figure out sky transfers to have it, as long as one of you kind fellas would help out with said transfer. ;D

[dobu gabu maru]

Lord almighty this thread moves fast. I'm gonna throw in my 2c and side with mouldy in the "crusty old farts" department and say that limit-removing is for the best. It gives you a basic handle on Doom and since you're robbed of generalized actions, it forces you to be crafty in a multitude of other ways. Boom is easier for newbies to understand but I think refining map design, working on enemy balance, and learning how to optimize triggers smartly is a big step towards understand core principles of Doom... plus it'll rob people of throwing in effects like moving floors and instant teleports, which can often be used in dumb, unnecessary ways.

[SFoZ911]

dobu gabu maru said:

Lord almighty this thread moves fast. I'm gonna throw in my 2c and side with mouldy in the "crusty old farts" department and say that limit-removing is for the best. It gives you a basic handle on Doom and since you're robbed of generalized actions, it forces you to be crafty in a multitude of other ways. Boom is easier for newbies to understand but I think refining map design, working on enemy balance, and learning how to optimize triggers smartly is a big step towards understand core principles of Doom... plus it'll rob people of throwing in effects like moving floors and instant teleports, which can often be used in dumb, unnecessary ways.

Totally agree on that.

[cannonball]

Same here, my vote is for limit-removing. You can get a lot of good stuff out of jut the vanilla actions. My only use for boom is the voodoo doll trickery.

[mouldy]

7hm said:

My first attempt link

Here is the updated map: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=06523525264754449236

I just had a run through this, obviously its not finished yet but here are a few thoughts.

The berserk platform rising up to the ceiling if you jump off the edge of the ledges is kind of odd, is there a reason for that? Since you then can't pick up the berserk pack there isn't any reason to run over the linedefs surrounding it that open the door, which could cause some confusion. I think the red key door could use some red-key markings as a lot of maps have one of those doors at the start as scenery. I couldn't see any way of getting the yellow key, though you can't access the exit room anyway. I couldn't get the rocket launcher either.

The action was a bit confusing on my first go, I found myself running out of ammo after gunning down all the demons - i'm guessing you are meant to punch all those to death with the berserk, but its not always obvious for players to do that if they have no foreknowledge of how tight the ammo will be afterwards. The mancubus room is best tackled entirely from the corridor outside, leaving a lonely archvile on his shelf. Seems a shame to have a room that size and not have any fighting in it.

If i was going to suggest anything, I'd move the player start to in front of the ssg switch and move the red key door to the entrance to that room, so that the player has to deal with the monsters on the shelves while finding cover, rather than picking everything off from the entrance tunnel. Similarly, some way of getting the player into that mancubus room to fight stuff would make it more interesting, at the moment the whole room can be covered by fire from the corridor outside so there is little incentive to go in there to fight.

Also, your teleporters would work better if the linedefs were flipped, so the handles are pointing outwards. Teleport lines work from one direction, you have to cross them from the direction they are facing.

[Steve D]

And allow me to also vote for limit-removing vanilla. I think mouldy's post -- a few up from his latest -- perfectly sums up the reasoning, and all I would add is what I recall from having read an interview with Gary Numan. He was asked how he feels about modern synthesizers that can make vast arrays of sounds and also emulate all the old synths, such as the ones he used, and yet, people keep buying and sampling his old work. His response was that art is defined by the limits of its medium, and when you expand those limits, as with the modern synthesizers, you can get lost in the options.

So go with the oldschool way, at least for now. ;)

[plums]

an_mutt said:

I don't know exactly what's going on with this thread right now but as long as I'm allowed to use the blue moon sky from this plums post
(img)
then I'm golden. I'd prefer it if it was a sky for an entire episode and this project was kept limit-removing but I wouldn't mind having to figure out sky transfers to have it, as long as one of you kind fellas would help out with said transfer. ;D

Seems like a lot of people like that sky. I wouldn't want to deprive the project of another EvilNed sky, but maybe it should go in? Or at least Ned can take some inspiration from it.


Now, in light of the limit-removing confusion, if anyone who has completed a Boom/ZDoom map for NOVA 2 wants help converting it, that's a job I don't mind taking.

[tourniquet]

SteveD said:

Doom the way Gary Numan did

Interesting argumentation that definitly sums it up.