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RedShift

New 12-level WAD completed

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Hello all,

I completed a 12-level WAD for Doom 2. I tested it extensively; every single part of every level works, including every secret, in Boom.

The difficulty is medium. It's similar in style to the original DOOM 2 WAD which I love, though I put in more tricks and puzzles. It's not trying to do anything special other than be a fun, well-tested WAD that's nice to look at. (I think levels 3-4 are my weakest architecturally).

Pay close attention to the walls. Secrets are always marked, unless they are floor triggers (and even some of those are marked). The marking will probably be subtle. Ammo is scarce if you don't find secrets, so either don't miss, or find secrets. And save often, because a few nice secrets lock if you miss them or mess up the sequence.

Again, every single thing works properly, so if you get stuck, the WAD isn't broken; you just haven't figured out where to go yet.

Any and all comments are welcome, whether you liked it or didn't care for it.

Download Link: http://www.filedropper.com/acidrivers_5
Enjoy!
Redshift

Edit: Many many thanks to EffinghamHuffnagel for finding the missing textures and for other advice and fixes.

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MAP01 - a giant HOM:


MAP02 - two monsters are stuck in each other on HMP:


Stopped playing after that. Needs more testing. :)

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Da Werecat said:

MAP01 - a giant HOM

GL mode? I played in software and did not see it, though maybe I didn't notice it. Think it was just black...

Anyhow I played the first three maps, enjoyable so far. Here are some FDAs:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1281007

MAP04 doesn't run for me, I get complaints about something, maybe a missing texture. Am I supposed to be using a texture pack with this? The actual error message is R_TextureNumForName: ANCBAR1 not found.

Apart from the above problems, there were also tutti-frutti in some places on maps 2 & 3.





It's a shame you've been sitting on these for so long, because extra eyes can help you spot problems that you would miss yourself. Despite all this I think it's pretty good so far, and I hope the feedback you've gotten here isn't too discouraging. I did like the puzzle-ness of MAP02 especially and I hope there's more like that in the rest of the wad.

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plums said:

GL mode?

Nope.

Actually, it looks normal in GL. That's probably how it was tested all these years.

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There's no shame in releasing a wad as a beta. Why do you insist that it's glitch proof? I'm guessing the four years in development have to do something with it ;) No worries, mate, I feel you.

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Thanks so much. I'm assuming that the bugs you guys are seeing are due to using a different frontend. I've been using Doomsday and I've never seen any of that. What frontend are you using?

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"There's no shame in releasing a wad as a beta. Why do you insist that it's glitch proof? I'm guessing the four years in development have to do something with it ;) No worries, mate, I feel you."

Thanks. You're right. I'm new to these forums. I really do think they are glitch-proof (on my frontend I've never glitched) but I guess there's no reason for me to say it.

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I've seen some missing textures throughout the wad (lift in MAP02, exit teleporter in MAP02, somewhere in MAP01 too I think). I wasn't sure if my software renderer wasn't the culprit. Which port do you use, RedShift? Probably some ZDoom-based port and possibly with GL rendering, because your maps also have "tutti-frutti" bugs (mentioned above by plums) which don't appear in ZDoom. Another bug - this place in MAP04 contains multiple nukage flooded sectors that don't cause damage.

RedShift, I can see why you point out that the wad works right, I can see where your concerns come from. You have included quite a lot of unintuitive puzzle sequences, which might be hard to figure out without having a foreknowledge. In my opinion, you should admit that it's at least partially your fault, if a hypothetical player couldn't figure out a weird puzzle setup without hints. I only say this to defend players who might have complained about getting stuck, like you have worried. But speaking for myself, I didn't have problems and actually enjoyed the puzzles like MAP02 lifts, MAP04 switches in darkness, MAP05 yellow stairs - but I can definitely see how some people can find them annoying. I personally did just a little and only at first.

I've played 5 maps so far. I like the wad for what it is. It is fairly simple and easy. Shaping rooms and texturing has been put together in a pretty ugly way almost everywhere, I'd say (with an apology). Most challenge doesn't come from monsters, but the puzzles and environmental hazards. Here I have to say, please don't use mandatory runs through damaging floors, because they can get annoying very easily. Also don't make inescapable pits (MAP05 has some), it's fair to always provide a way out. Regarding one-time accessible secrets or secrets that might get "locked", I strongly recommend to not make them, for the sake of a fair game which is comfortable for the player. You might underestimate it, but in my view it's important. The player likes a fair challenge and the possibility to achieve complete kill/item/secrets statistics, and denying this comfort to him because of "screwing up a random unknown sequence" is not fair.

As I said, I don't find the environment to be very visually appealing. But I find a fun in the wad. I'm enjoying the (mostly) relatively easy shootage, as well as I enjoy the exploration and some interesting puzzles. Mixed feelings, but anyway - you did a good job. Take the feedback above as tips, saying what to improve in your possible future mapping. ;)

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Amazing feedback, thank you.

Especially this: "You might underestimate it, but in my view it's important. The player likes a fair challenge and the possibility to achieve complete kill/item/secrets statistics, and denying this comfort to him because of "screwing up a random unknown sequence" is not fair."

I do underestimate it because I've never been much of a 100%-er so I didn't really consider that concern. But you are right that it would be frustrating to someone trying to get that 100% and I shouldn't do that.

This too I'd say is what I was trying to do: "Most challenge doesn't come from monsters, but the puzzles and environmental hazards." It's a tricky shooting gallery with tough puzzles. I've never liked maps where you have 10,000 enemies and no space. I was thinking more of the original DOOM 2 WAD which was also pretty easy monster-wise. Though I'm certain that this WAD has more monster-related challenges than that one (especially in the latter half).

Fixed this just now: "Another bug - this place in MAP04 contains multiple nukage flooded sectors that don't cause damage." Thanks.

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I like 1-shot secrets so if I make one I just don't mark it as a secret and don't put monsters in so it becomes a super secret :-)

I also think mandatory runs through damaging floors and inescapable death pits both have their place and people who complain about them are wussies but that's another fight for another day :-)

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purist said:

I also think mandatory runs through damaging floors and inescapable death pits both have their place and people who complain about them are wussies but that's another fight for another day :-)

You're in a bad luck, wussies have the majority :P

I'm sorry for that remark, now seriously: When nukage runs are done in a fair and appropriately sane way, I find them a pretty good choice to spice up a challenge, and enjoy it. On the other hand, inescapable pits are a typical example of "one mistake / wrong decision out of curiosity -> fail for ever", which (in Doom) I find downright bad, always. Most people do, I believe. Sorry for the little off-topic, but it's actually still relevant to what I wanted to say to the OP, to convince him that these choices are not right.

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Pistol starts?
Map 12: how is the user supposed to know to shoot the wall? no clues as what to do in the level.
Map 02 has some missing textures.
Map 03 is impossible to 100%?

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scifista42 said:

On the other hand, inescapable pits are a typical example of "one mistake / wrong decision out of curiosity -> fail for ever", which (in Doom) I find downright bad, always. Most people do, I believe.


In the context of this thread I agree that's fair advice, but not as an absolute. Fail forever is a huge exaggeration unless you have a goldfish memory and repeat the same mistake every time you restart the level or reload your last save. Do you still frequently fall into the nukage pit you can't escape from in E1M3? No, once you know it's there you simply avoid it and if it was in a more treacherous place you would take care navigating it.

It's not like I riddle my levels with inescapable pits or find some kind of masochistic pleasure when I fall into them but the points you raise as no-no's (1 shot secrets, mandatory damaging floors, inescapable death pits) and a few others (crushers and ability to always back track for examples) are symptoms of the play-it-once disposable WAD culture that I accept we have now and am part of, but which I lament all the same. I'm still finding secrets and surprises in the IWAD maps but a lot of players expect the full extent of a level to reveal itself on first play and they had better not die in doing so!

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RedShift said:

Can you clarify what issue you are having with map03? I can get credit for every secret.

Maybe Pure Hellspawn was talking about 100% kills. Maybe he had the cyberdemon trio in mind. I can imagine that.

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About engines: when testing simpler maps such as these, it's usually fitting to use a simpler engine to ensure broader compatibility.

For example, PrBoom+. It can emulate various classic engines via compatibility options. If you don't use any advanced features, then you should set "Doom 2" as default compatibility level and test in software mode.

If you want even better compatibility, including vanilla Doom and all of its bugs and limitations, Chocolate Doom is your port of choice.

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Fail forever is a huge exaggeration unless you have a goldfish memory and repeat the same mistake every time you restart the level or reload your last save.


I think scifista meant the one mistake is enough to cost you your life (as opposed to most other Doom scenarios where you have to make a succession of wrong steps to get yourself killed).

As a wuss, I despise instadeaths in any context. No matter where anyone falls on the spectrum, as a mapper it's worth being aware the issue is divisive.

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Playing this in Zdoom. In general, fun. Texture/flat choices were odd. Clashing colors and styles, non-standard teleport tiles. A little like wearing a striped shirt with a plaid jacket and a paisley tie. It all works the way it's supposed to, it's just not pretty to look at.

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MAP01
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There is an unknown object in the map, type 32000, just NE of sector tagged 2. Was there supposed to be a DECORATE at one time?

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MAP02
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So the hidden Invis sphere in sector 102 is NOT a secret. Okay. I thought maybe the door sector was just too narrow, or I ran over the top of it.

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Line 421, the back of the door with sector tag 12, is tagged D1 Open/StayOpen. Should be DR Open/Close. Linedef tag 12 is tagged SR Open/Close. You can trip this switch again and get stuck in the secret chaingun room (only if you're an idiot, but you can).

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Why does linedef tag 9 have texture SW1WDMET (blue face) instead of SW2WDMET (red face), since it's tagged S1 OpenRed and opens the red bars? Confusing.

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Texture on line 120, the back of the lift with linedef tag 3, is missing.

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Using an entire ceiling of lighting tiles like CEIL3_4 in such a dark area past the blue key door is an odd choice. Especially in the triangular area. Cut-off angle tiles don't look good. Suggest dropping the ceiling in the triangle by 16 to match the floor and change the tile.

http://i.imgur.com/Zoftenk.png

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Sectors 146 and 147, near teleport linedef tag 24, have missing textures.

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I have a problem with the lift puzzle, but only because of its secondary nature. Exiting the upper hallway triggers linedef tag 17, WR LowerLift/WaitRaise. Entering that tunnel triggers the first lift, linedef tag 18, WR LowerLift/WaitRaise. But you don't notice the secondary action because you have to get through the tunnel so you can trigger linedef tag 22, the switch that lowers the teleport to the exit. When you finish the area, you teleport out into sector 148, tagged 24. My point is that there is nothing to force you down the upper hallway a second time to trigger linedef tag 17 so you have the possibility of seeing the lift move. So the lift maze is a secondary action, but a primary path necessary to get the Yellow Key and finish the level. It took me forever to find that the first lift (behind me) dropped when I entered the tunnel. I only found it when I went through everything again for the umpteenth time and stopped in the tunnel. I happened to turn back and see it close. Frustrating. The fastest fix would be to remove the tag from the back of the blue key door, making it one-way in. Then you always have to exit through the upper hallway. Since the second time you don't have to go through the tunnel, it would be easier to spot the lift moving. Alternatively, you could remove linedef tag 18 and change the first lift (with sector tag 18) to sector tag 22 to tag it to lower when you lower the teleport to the exit. You lose the mirroring factor of the lifts, but it's easier to find. You can hear the second lift lower and rise while standing inside the first lift.

Also, the floor and ceiling tiles in all the lifts and the tunnel, COMP01 and FLOOR1_1, are all slightly not centered in both directions. Looks off. Yes, I know those tiles were drawn to be a little off center. Always bugged me in Doom too. Feels like a design error or a kludge to fix a Doom map that was off by a little.

http://i.imgur.com/6D1YYXu.png

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All the ROCK3 textures in the exit room should probably be changed to ROCK2 to match the color of the S1ROCK level exit switch. Or maybe just the ones on the same wall.

http://i.imgur.com/rngn8yO.png

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MAP03
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Odd choice of floor tile for the columns. I don't think animated tile RROCK06 next to animated tile NUKAGE2 looks very good, especially flush to the floor.

http://i.imgur.com/kHL6lah.png

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Sector 87 - the room at the end of the hall, and sector 89 - the megasphere in that room, are both tagged as secret. Redundant. Also RROCK06 again. I keep expecting that tile to be damaging. Odd choice for a non-hell/non-cave environment.

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The three raised sectors in the Cyber hall with linedef tags 9 that raise/lower the ceiling/floor of the Cyber room doors have different textures. Two have GATE4, one has FLOOR1_1. Since all three do different things, they should probably all have different floor tiles too, or all the same floor tile.

Another unknown object on the middle raised sector in the Cyber hallway.

Not sure why one entrance to the Cyber room has an inescapable pit for a doorway and the other does not.

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The teleport sector with linedef tags 16 is tagged as damaging. You can never enter the sector; just a clean-up issue.

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Being a completist, I hated leaving the Cybers alive. Good thing I found the secret switch which killed all four of them. Really hidden well.


Just kidding. But for OCD people like me, you might want to think about giving their room a crusher ceiling and putting a W1 activation linedef someplace before you grab the Yellow Key so there's enough time for them to die before you exit the level. Or a secret S1 crusher switch somewhere.

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Linedef tag 22, the hidden switch that lowers the secret energy cell - I've always hated non-switch-textured switches that don't let you know if they've done anything. In this case it's not bad because you can hear the column lower through the window. But as a rule, I've always thought that adding a non-visible upper or lower actual switch texture to the hidden switch will at least play a switch sound when you trigger it.

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There should probably be an 'Exit' texture somewhere near the level exit switch.

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MAP04
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A maze. In absolute darkness. Fighting Imps, Revenants, a Caco, a Hell Knight, a PE and two Barons. After I used all my rockets against the first Baron earlier. You are evil. Third restore I found the LightAmp, thank God. Made things easier, but I still had to run from the Barons because you can't score the secret Plasma Gun until after you meet them.

Speaking of that, I couldn't figure out how to get the Plasma Gun. Pure chance that I was blowing up a leftover barrel with the chaingun and hit the wall. Why would anyone think that wall was a G1 switch? I don't think the lack of a blood border at the bottom is enough of a hint. There is such a varied selection of textures, it's not different enough. Also see my previous note about non-switch-textured switches.

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Two more unknown objects on the stairs just south of linedef tag 12.

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LOTS of Chaingunners. Good thing most of them kill each other.

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The Imp pits east of the Chaingunners - looked odd to me that the nukage doesn't flow into the pits since it's flush to the top of them.

http://i.imgur.com/8bSH7C0.png

Maybe a small border? But that would make the height out of the pit more than 24 units. That would require the floor of each pit to be higher and each metal wall protecting each Imp to be taller. Hmmm... Is it worth the effort? Don't know.

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No 'Exit' texture near the exit. No logical place for one either, unless you wrap the entire exit column with 'Exit'. Maybe on the side walls inside the blue key closet next to the switch that lowers the exit column.

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MAP05
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The Megasphere secret - I hate secrets where you only get one attempt to get it right. They're frustrating and not fun. Makes me feel like I'm playing Dragon's Lair at the arcade again. The only thing I hate more is sectors that close like a door after level start.

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Two more unknown objects near sector tags 27. What editor did you use?

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No 'Exit' sign anywhere. I only mention them for the sake of consistency. Did you give up on Exit signs after MAP02?

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The exit is W1 EndLevel. There is an SW1SKIN lower texture on it. It can't be seen; just a clean-up issue.

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MAP06
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Oh, look! More secrets you only get one attempt to get right. La, how jolly.

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So. You have to kill 7 of the 8 Arch-Viles in the pit (sector tag 19), but leave one alive so when the pit rises he can jump you to score the secret Megasphere. Geez, this is now more work than fun. Or is jumping allowed? You can jump onto the Brown Stub and then from there to the secret. Probably not allowable.

EDIT2: Just realized that all the AVs are tagged Medium/Hard. On Easy, they're all Hell Knights. Which means that on Easy, there's no way to get to the Megasphere and score the secret.

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Unknown object in Arch-Vile pit, sector tag 19.

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Linedef tag 46, which is W1 RaiseFloorToNextHigherFloor, raises the bridge across the lava. But there are multiple tag 46 linedefs. If you trigger the others, you raise the bridge above the height of the floor to the height of the columns next to the bridge and then have missing textures.

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Again, red key door has SW1WDMET blue face texture on it. Odd choice.

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Exit room - no textures on walls and bars are not tagged impassable.

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I'll try to get to the rest of the maps this week-end.

EDIT: Forgot that all the pictures are 1920x1080. Sorry. New computer and monitor. Haven't installed Photoshop yet. Won't happen again.

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Ok I am going through your comments one by one to see what I can do. For the level 6 megasphere -> usually I let them push me up to it and then I kill them from the secret area.

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For the several missing linedef textures (sectors 146 and 147 in map02, exit sector in map06, for example): I was trying to get the editor to add the default background sky texture for the level as a wraparound. I don't know how to actually do this but in jdoom this seemed to work. Is there a better way to achieve the desired effect?

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If you're fixing this up some more, one thing I noticed is that it's possible to grab several secrets through walls/grates, like the chaingun in map02 and the megasphere in map05, just by running into the wall at high speed.

Another problem is spots where you can get stuck if you go to more than once thanks to 1-use linedefs. I can't remember which maps, I'll figure it out later...

I was going to do a bit more of a thorough bugcheck/comment but I haven't gotten to it yet. Maybe I'll wait until EH is done, he has done a pretty thorough job so far.

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Thanks, plums. Fixed it (I think - megasphere in map05 is a bit harder since there's little space, but I uncentered the megasphere and hopefully that's enough)

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Also I think I figured out what the unknown objects are: they are old visual mode cameras, marked as thing ID 32000, artifacts of revisiting maps and manually adding cameras so I could jump to a specific location in 3D mode. I've been deleting them.

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MAP07
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Couldn't legally finish the level. Tried three times. Every time I kill the last Arachno, the bridge rises too high to cross. Starting height of the bridge is -160. It ends up at a height of, I think, 72 units above the floor which is at 8 (hard to count pixels on an animated texture), which means it rises 240 units (and shows missing textures).

http://i.imgur.com/1HWv9Ok.png

Tag 667 should rise by the height of the first sidedef's lower texture, which in this case is 128. How the hell did you get it to rise 240? And no, it's not the Arachno double rising sector bug. I made sure the last Arachno was the only one left when I killed it. I don't think this was intentional, but if it was, it's actually brilliant. You have to be standing at the edge of the bridge when you kill the last Arachno so you can run across it to the exit before it rises too high. Otherwise you have to start the level over again, or at least from the last save. That would be brilliant and frustrating and the kind of thing that makes you want to stop playing the wad. Did you build this for Boom? Is this some sort of Boom bug? I suppose the fastest fix would be to tag the end of the bridge as SR LowerLiftFastWaitRaise so you can still get to the exit.

Hey, 'Exit' signs are back.

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MAP08
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I spent an hour on Saturday trying to get past the first room - using the lowering columns as steps to get across to the door. Couldn't do it so I just clipped there. Too frustrating; not worth the effort. Then the invisible maze, complete with massive HOMs, gave me a blinding headache so I stopped playing for two days.

http://i.imgur.com/A1j0eY7.png
http://i.imgur.com/rDvAMLL.png
http://i.imgur.com/GWD2Aju.png
http://i.imgur.com/4PJfUlS.png
http://i.imgur.com/U9Leghy.png
http://i.imgur.com/12x75No.png

The rest worked out okay.

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MAP09
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Only big issue is missing textures on all the steps built with linedef tag 32.

http://i.imgur.com/FO0oxmj.png

Linedef tag 17 bothered me a little. There's nothing to indicate that's where you need to step off to lower the lift and access the secret room. Maybe change the texture on the second sidedef from STARBR2 to STARTAN2 so it might be noticed when you step out onto the walkway.

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I will look into the major issues you mentioned but I've never encountered them in jdoom. The map07 platform rising too high I don't even understand, let alone have any idea how to test. It works fine every time I play it.

I'm assuming that the maze in map08 is missing some upper textures somewhere. Again I don't see the effect you're seeing in Doomsday, but I'm guessing that Doomsday corrects for missing textures sometimes.

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If the bridge in MAP07 worked perfectly, it still wouldn't rise high enough. Its floor is set at -160. The highest it could rise is an additional 128, which would put it at -32. With the exit area floor at 8, the bridge would still be 40 units below the exit door. You still couldn't get to the exit.

This is what happens in ZDoom. I haven't use Doomsday in years and never used jdoom.

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Fixed the maze in map08. All the lower textures on the back sides of the maze walls were missing. I think what happened was I tried to add them en masse by selecting the entire sector and editing all the selected linedefs, but when I told it to add a new lower texture it just wasn't adding it (this is what happened to me now as I tried to fix it). So I did it all manually.

I don't know what to say about MAP07. As it is set up now, the bridge rises perfectly to meet the floor for me.

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