Ultimate Doom in Name Only - voting for new leadership (see page 20)

joe-ilya said:

Whatever, I'll restart E3M6 from scratch if you don't like it that much(rhymes).

I thought you knew that Eris doesn't like any of your levels :P

plums said:

Ok, Joe667 never replied to my PM or post, so I'm just going to withdraw from E1M6 and let whoever catches it first take it. I'll try to stick around for playtesting etc., at least.

Me please! I'm feeling like it! That's secretly a cool name to base a techbase level around.
(Unless 2.5 slots is too much to hold for 1 person right now)

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Is it possible to put 3d bridges in Ultimate doom?
Whatever, got it.

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6e8mivpn44fuuw/E1M3.wad

It took a few days but it's finally done--or at least it's PLAYABLE. I haven't playtested it much, but everything works. It might need some balancing. There might be some tutti-frutti or something; I've been unable to test it in ChocoDoom due to the SFALL1 textures that I used--the green nukage falls. So if the project creator could hurry up with that, that'd be cool--I tried to make one on my own but TEXTURE lumps confuse the hell out of me.

Let me know if you try it out! I'd say it's a fair bit bigger than the original E1M3 but my ideas were pretty large. Also, I think anyone playing Doom in 2014 is going to be ready for a larger map by the third level.

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Starting E3M2:


Still no "Slough".
So far works in ChocoDoom so it's no problem, this is just a little progress and i'll post advanced screenies later, and i'll probably take pictures using ZDoom.

--
Onslaught Six: I downloaded it but i didn't play it because i had no time, but now i'll try your map!

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Onslaught Six said:

Let me know if you try it out!


- Door before the yellow door/cage doesn't have unpegged textures
- Imp you see pushing the "window" door is stuck in the computers and can't move
- SUPPORT2 on the back of the stairs near the blue bars is misaligned
- There's a lower texture missing/bad HOM when the yellow key maze comes down
- Why is this slime line here?
- Pushing the button here lowers the slime falls... and that's it? I assume some nukeage is supposed to rise so I can get out, but it doesn't happen. And I'm stuck here... wait, no, okay, somehow it did trigger like a minute later. Because I shot something? Or hit a switch? Or just waited? I dunno, but it's buggy.
- When the slime raises in the blue bars room, it raises an incorrect height and creates a bunch of HOMs
- Soulsphere secret door behind red door doesn't have unpegged textures
- Berserk secret door has no unpegged sides, and the teleporter doesn't work (likely because the exit is incorrectly placed or tagged)
- The following doors don't open: the normal exit door, the secret exit door, the door to the rocket launcher (though it can be accessed through a secret). The normal exit also doesn't have an exit door or exit sign.

Overall, it's got some signs of promise (I like the general idea of the main toxin room) but there's a bevy of bugs above, and even with those fixed, it's still somewhat rough around the edges and I feel it could use some overhauling in spots. Also, definitely needs some more ammo, and I'd say make it darker in spots - it's too bright for most of the map (aside from the couple of almost-too-dark areas).

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Magnusblitz said:

- Door before the yellow door/cage doesn't have unpegged textures
- SUPPORT2 on the back of the stairs near the blue bars is misaligned
- Imp you see pushing the "window" door is stuck in the computers and can't move
- There's a lower texture missing/bad HOM when the yellow key maze comes down
- Soulsphere secret door behind red door doesn't have unpegged textures
- The following doors don't open: the normal exit door, the secret exit door, the door to the rocket launcher (though it can be accessed through a secret). The normal exit also doesn't have an exit door or exit sign.


All of these have been fixed, except the "door to the rocket launcher." It is a deliberate one-way door; you can't get to that side normally because coming from the doorway with the stairs, you get teleported to the nukage switch.

- Why is this slime line here?
- Pushing the button here lowers the slime falls... and that's it? I assume some nukeage is supposed to rise so I can get out, but it doesn't happen. And I'm stuck here... wait, no, okay, somehow it did trigger like a minute later. Because I shot something? Or hit a switch? Or just waited? I dunno, but it's buggy.


The slime line is to do the texture once the slime floor rises. It's the only way I could get it to work the way I wanted it to. You have to walk over that line and it raises the nukage. I'm not sure why it didn't work for you. If you want to offer a better solution, please do!

The whole reason the thing is there in the first place is, well, it's a toxin refinery. Gotta refine some toxins, or some shit. I dunno.

- When the slime raises in the blue bars room, it raises an incorrect height and creates a bunch of HOMs


I thought I removed the tags so that it didn't rise at all anymore.

- Berserk secret door has no unpegged sides, and the teleporter doesn't work (likely because the exit is incorrectly placed or tagged)


I still don't know why it's not working for some people. It's worked for me and everything looks right.

Overall, it's got some signs of promise (I like the general idea of the main toxin room) but there's a bevy of bugs above, and even with those fixed, it's still somewhat rough around the edges and I feel it could use some overhauling in spots. Also, definitely needs some more ammo, and I'd say make it darker in spots - it's too bright for most of the map (aside from the couple of almost-too-dark areas). [/B]


I never really ran out of ammo, but that's me. I can buff it up a bit, I don't mind.

Here's a new version, see if that's fixed.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62697468/Doom%20Stuff/E1M3.wad

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Onslaught Six said:


https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6e8mivpn44fuuw/E1M3.wad

Let me know if you try it out! I'd say it's a fair bit bigger than the original E1M3 but my ideas were pretty large. Also, I think anyone playing Doom in 2014 is going to be ready for a larger map by the third level.


I had a quick run through, there seems to be a few bugs which have probably been listed above. It feels like playing a doom 1 map, which is cool, but doesn't give much of a feeling of being a toxin refinery beyond having a few nukage pits. I think the goal of this project is more about creating a recognisable place that follows the name of the map, where what you have here is an abstract collection of rooms and corridors that could be anywhere. To be fair thats what the doom 1 maps were mostly, but I think thats one of the reasons for doing this project, to try making something more in tune with the map titles.

If you do a google image search for refinery you see a lot of skeletal outdoor structures with walkways and pipes, the vanilla limits wouldn't let you go too wild I guess, but I think some more detail and outdoor areas would help give your map a sense of being a real place maybe.

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Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if Doom 1 is suited for this kind of project. Doom 2 worked great for it because the map names either barely resembled the level (Tenements) or were more descriptive than they were of an actual place (O Of Destruction). Doom 1 is largely made up of realistic-sounding places or completely abstract stuff for the Hell levels, so I dunno how well this will work out. I'm sure "doesn't resemble a real place enough" will probably become a running theme in map submissions, especially for E1.

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Onslaught Six said:

All of these have been fixed, except the "door to the rocket launcher." It is a deliberate one-way door; you can't get to that side normally because coming from the doorway with the stairs, you get teleported to the nukage switch.


To specify - the door doesn't open from either side. If the door doesn't open, what's the purpose of having a switch behind the blue bars that raises the stairs? And having all the monsters in the rocket launcher face towards a door that doesn't open?

The slime line is to do the texture once the slime floor rises. It's the only way I could get it to work the way I wanted it to. You have to walk over that line and it raises the nukage. I'm not sure why it didn't work for you. If you want to offer a better solution, please do!


Ah, makes sense... the old "changes texture to the texture of the floor" bit. The slime line on the ground looks kinda lame to me though, I would play around with having the switch in a vat of slime, or maybe have a slime puddle on the ground.

Looking at the map in Doom, I can see why it didn't all target at once... only part is the switch, the others are walkover tags. I hit the switch from the side, so I didn't trigger any of the walkover lines.

I thought I removed the tags so that it didn't rise at all anymore.


The inmost square is tagged 1 (so it lowers the ceiling to the floor, as the slimefall), the largest outside ring of the pool is tagged 2, so it raises by 24. The ground around it is only 16 above it, so raising it creates a HOM.

I still don't know why it's not working for some people. It's worked for me and everything looks right.


Looking at it in the editor, the teleport destination thing is only flagged for skill 1 and 2, not 3. So playing on UV means no working teleport.

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mouldy said:

It feels like playing a doom 1 map, which is cool, but doesn't give much of a feeling of being a toxin refinery beyond having a few nukage pits. I think the goal of this project is more about creating a recognisable place that follows the name of the map, where what you have here is an abstract collection of rooms and corridors that could be anywhere. To be fair thats what the doom 1 maps were mostly, but I think thats one of the reasons for doing this project, to try making something more in tune with the map titles.

If you do a google image search for refinery you see a lot of skeletal outdoor structures with walkways and pipes, the vanilla limits wouldn't let you go too wild I guess, but I think some more detail and outdoor areas would help give your map a sense of being a real place maybe.

Onslaught Six said:

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if Doom 1 is suited for this kind of project. Doom 2 worked great for it because the map names either barely resembled the level (Tenements) or were more descriptive than they were of an actual place (O Of Destruction). Doom 1 is largely made up of realistic-sounding places or completely abstract stuff for the Hell levels, so I dunno how well this will work out. I'm sure "doesn't resemble a real place enough" will probably become a running theme in map submissions, especially for E1.


One thing I didn't mention overall with the map is that it does feel a lot like a Doom 1 map (definitely a few homage-y bits too, such as the soulsphere window and the "open the window" door). I think, in a way, it's a bit of a mistake to try and copy Doom 1 styles, because it will result in the problem you've identified... that we'll get a lot of maps that don't really seem like real places much more than the stuff we got in E1. After all, a lot of those places do match the names fairly decently.

I'd try to stay away from the E1 stylings when possible and go much more fullblown on the names, personally. But that might be difficult to do with vanilla limits.

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It's good that this sort of thing is coming up early, though. And I agree, for this project to work we should really deviate quite a bit from the e1 style for e1 maps, because if we're being vague about it then many of the original levels already sort of work. We have to make ours stand out and be much more like the places they claim to be than the classic "abstract nonsense but what the heck, it could be that I guess" levels.

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Far away view of E3M6.

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Antroid said:

It's good that this sort of thing is coming up early, though. And I agree, for this project to work we should really deviate quite a bit from the e1 style for e1 maps, because if we're being vague about it then many of the original levels already sort of work. We have to make ours stand out and be much more like the places they claim to be than the classic "abstract nonsense but what the heck, it could be that I guess" levels.


Suddenly I remember the Biosphere raging during DTWID's development, over the mere thought of using vines on a possible secret map..

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Yeah I dunno how to get these liquid falls working. Choco just started complaining about missing patches in completely unrelated textures.

--

E1M3
Not bad. Does need some refinement though, lighting could use some more variation, there's one too many 90° angles for my liking, which I think probably contributes to the fact the level looks rather underdetailed.

Gameplay wise however I don't have many complaints, though the room with the yellow door is rather small, and I personally didn't like the blinking maze.

I'm wondering if the map could benefit from having more monsters, but also more barrels to deal with them. Toxin Refinery is the map in UD to have a large number of barrels.

EDIT: Oh there was already an update. Worth noting then I played with the first version.

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If I may chime in - Doom's Inferno as created by id Software contained much more tech stuff than our general vision of "hell" would allow. While the green stone and lava abounded, there was also plenty of machinery and wiring. Don't forget that this is the Hell that created Arachnotrons, the Cyberdemon and the Spider Mastermind. They definitely must have mechanical facilities in that Hell.

This generally isn't reflected in most fanmade hellish levels, it wasn't even really reflected that much in Plutonia or TNT (well, Mount Pain DID contain copious amounts of tech textures). I personally was quite fond of the tech aspects of the original Inferno (and DTWID), I don't think they should be discarded without a second thought as the original post suggests.

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There was little tech in Hell at first because only the two bosses had integrated tech, it was a new thing they were subverting. Hence why its become widespread by the timeframe of Doom 2. But yeah, this project is more about getting things from the names of the maps, more than any lore. By name alone, only three Inferno levels seem plausible for tech inclusion; Pandemonium, as the name generally means a state of chaos, ie rules need not apply, House of Pain, as it'd have all kinds of things to torture with...or appliances if you want THAT kind of house :p

Dis is likely going to be the City of Dis, going by a post from Antroid, which implies tech somewhere...could even pass through a room where the Mastermind and Cyberdemon got meched up.

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Eris Falling said:

Yeah I dunno how to get these liquid falls working. Choco just started complaining about missing patches in completely unrelated textures.

If you need a wad that adds SFALL1-4 to doom.wad there is one in this .zip. I imagine you made a patch wad that contained definitions for SFALL1-4 but nothing else. You need to import all the texture definitions from doom.wad as well, since your patch wad's texture definitions override those in the IWAD, instead of being merged with/appended to them.

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E1M3
It's ok, I wasn't overly impressed with the map, but it does have some potential if improvements are implemented in the right way. No point going over them as they are mentioned by others already in the thread.
The yellow key room need to be address in more than just removing the HOMs, fair to say I really didn't like that room.

E3M6
Well it's certainly has your style, it's not too bad, though the method to get to the exit area and the key doors is rather difficult to figure out. Probably too much ammo as well. The map wasn't hard for me personally.

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Ragnor said:

Dis is likely going to be the City of Dis, going by a post from Antroid, which implies tech somewhere...could even pass through a room where the Mastermind and Cyberdemon got meched up.

Yeah, probably the city. I honestly can't imagine anything else but I'd like another go at a hellish city after map29 of d2ino. I could make the map about a put-down via rap lyrics but I don't think that could work...

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I'll tackle Warrens if you guys will have me. Since it's a bonus map I'm gonna try and keep it small and weird.

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Well fuck me sideways. I actually think E3M6 is half-decent.
It was maybe a tad on the easy side, but aside from getting lost, I actually kinda enjoyed this.
There's a few cramped spaces, and as cb mentioned above the navigation is pretty confusing, but those are simple enough to sort out I think.

Visually, not amazing, but it's not so hideous that it would take forever to polish. I think even I'd be willing to go round doing that at a later date when joe's finished with it.

As antroid said, I generally don't like joe-maps, which for me, makes this map even more impressive. Not bad at all.

--

Getsu Fune: Yeah, you're going to need the slimefalls :P
Thanks rJy, I'll try that.

dobu: Marked you down. If this wasn't for vanilla, I'd be expecting giant rabbits :D

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Thanks for all the feedback so far. I'm going to give the map another pass right now and fix up a lot of it. I'm used to doing 200 minute speedmaps for a while now (I made 4 over the last month for a megawad project) so I'm a little too used to working "under the gun" and placing things for the sake of continuing to work, instead of thinking out areas as much as I should. So, we'll see what happens.

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You should take your time to build the map! i played it and so far i liked it, but i encounter some bugs that others already pointed out, it also felt a lot like an E1 map.

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Ledillman said:

You should take your time to build the map! i played it and so far i liked it, but i encounter some bugs that others already pointed out, it also felt a lot like an E1 map.


Part of it probably stems from how I make music. Usually I lay out the base for the entire song and then tweak parts of it until it's how I want. In some ways, I guess I map similarly--I rush to get the map "finished" and playable first, and then after that I can go back and make things work differently, look better, change stuff around, etc. I think I just find it easier to work on when there's already a "skeleton" in place.

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Eris Falling said:

Yeah I dunno how to get these liquid falls working. Choco just started complaining about missing patches in completely unrelated textures.


Want me to do it? Send me the liquids and other textures to include, or tell me where I can find them.

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Eris Falling said:

inb4 antroid

Wait, what was I expected to do here? I learned last time I can't put together working resource wads for shit :X

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