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hardcore_gamer

Why do people keep remaking Knee-deep in the dead?

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I don't get it. What is the appeal? There appear to be dozens of remakes of this episode (with some being more famous than others).

I don get that it's the most famous and most played episode, and some would argue that it's also the best one. But what is the point of remaking it? Either it just ends up being the same as before but with more detail which doesn't make for fun gameplay since your just playing the same thing as before but with upgraded visual detail, or it ends up being nothing alike it at all in which case it could as well have been named something else instead.

What is the point of remaking it? In fact what is the point of remaking official Doom levels and episodes in general? Why not just play the original or just make something new?

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Returning back to the roots, pleasant nostalgic and deja-vu feelings raise E1's appeal, mappers might feel excitement from trying to imitate what was proven to be enjoyable in the past, trying to get close to an admired design style, seeing E1 as a simple standardized model to follow, seeing E1 as "cool" and wanting to extend the original experience by custom maps in similar vein, which many people like. Also, homages and references (even if just stylistical) are an easy (cheap?) way to make one's own work more interesting. I understand it.

But I agree that going for originality is the best.

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This thread will have to stop here. There's no argument beyond csonicgos post.

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hardcore_gamer said:

I don't get it. What is the appeal? There appear to be dozens of remakes of this episode (with some being more famous than others).


As someone who might be considered guilty of such a "remake" -- and it will be on /idgames before the month is out -- I'd say I've never played an actual Knee Deep "remake," which would be, as you say later, a remake "of official Doom levels." I've played maps and mapsets that are designed "in the style of" Knee Deep, and I like them quite a bit. I'm very happy Sean Birkel made Fave Beans, and I'm very happy Ralphis and Rottking made Double Impact, to name IMO the 2 best examples.

The reality is that Doom is basically a corridor shooter by design, a game of rooms and corridors with monsters in them, and to play the game you go into those rooms and corridors, kill the monsters, and you're done. In this sense, it's as simple as rock and roll, and on that note, one might well ask why so many thousands of rockers have ripped off the guitar riffs of Chuck Berry. The answer is because they're so damned good, and they fit the template so well.

Doom, like rock and roll, is capable of having its template expanded and refined. In rock and roll, you have the original '50s material, much of it rockabilly, which can never actually be improved on because it was just too fucking awesome, but you can have different variations that may be co-equal -- psychedelic rock, heavy metal, prog-rock, punk and so on. And in Doom you have all kinds of variations on the standard themes as well as slaughtermaps and suchlike. So a modern mapper who wants to work in the style of Knee Deep is adopting a basic template and doing original material in that style, just like The Stray Cats coming along in the '80s and doing brand-new rockabilly. And I hope it long continues. ;)

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I'm gonna tell you why: because it's easier for people to do it. There's a limited set of textures to choose from, the design style is very consistent and predictable, and some people are just too familiar with it.

Contrast it with Doom episodes 2 and 3, which look like abstract nightmares in comparison, without a clear theme.

Episode 4 does come second in popularity, since it also is pretty consistent (slimy castles and caves), often mixed with gritty Doom 2 style.

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hardcore_gamer said:

I don't get it. What is the appeal?

The answer is simple. It's the best set of official levels ever made for Doom. We are Romero's bitch!

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printz said:

I'm gonna tell you why: because it's easier for people to do it. There's a limited set of textures to choose from, the design style is very consistent and predictable, and some people are just too familiar with it.


I think we can agree that E1 is not necessarily objectively better than e2, e3, even e4. But for many of us, it was the very first container of levels for an innovative FPS that we ever played. It cast an indelible image in our mind. Who in their right mind, given they had the necessary prerequisite skills, would not wish to emulate that first initial experience of wonder & disbelief that video games could actually be this much fun? It would seem actually quite logical to emulate something that you fell in love with.

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TheCupboard said:

I think we can agree that E1 is not necessarily objectively better than e2, e3, even e4.


E2 and E3 were pretty damned hideous, and from pistol start, the gameplay is very repetitive -- get pounced by Pinkies, run around like crazy until you find shotgun and/or Zerk, and then destroy the map. There were some pretty cool maps in there, and E3, IMO, is better than E2; E4 is better than E3, and E1 still rules the roost simply because it looks so much better than the others, even though it's the easiest one. Beauty is its own reward. ;)

BTW, I'm among those who started on Doom 2.

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Avoozl said:

I would ask why there are many Plutonia remakes also. :P


not enough imo

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Original ideas are extremely rare. Personally, almost all of my maps started as attempts at recreating the feel of some other wads. E1 is just one of the most well known themes so it gets chosen more often than the others.

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joe-ilya said:

Why don't city maps get made, city maps are cool.

Play HacX :-)

In fact, everyone should play HacX.

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joe-ilya said:

Why don't city maps get made, city maps are cool.


I know you know of planisphere 2, link provided for everyone else: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/61701-planisphere-2/

I think my new PC can actually handle this one. I'll have to give it a whirl. Utterly amazing stuff.

Not many mappers will ever try something this ambitious, including me. ;) There's a few decent city maps out there, but they're kinda hard to do, or at least, do well, which may be why they're relatively rare.

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That disk was freeware in the 90's too, since they sold it with it inside the cereal box without rising the price of the whole box(?)
Cool that hacx is freeware now, I'll see what it is for my first time.

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joe-ilya said:

Why don't city maps get made, city maps are cool.

Because city maps are hard to make and therefore they take more time than average tech maps or hell maps.

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He has been posting some WIP shots in ZDoom too for the past two weeks, been looking forward to it since...

Spoiler

Oh, and by the way, it's Limit removing. Remember not to wet your pants, everyone.

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