Why do females/gays/non-whites have to be in video games?

[Kontra Kommando]

hardcore_gamer said:

Well, even if nothing else I would say the thread has at least become a hot topic on the Doomworld forums. I was honestly not expecting this massive shitstorm to happen. Leason learned: Never make any political threads on Doomworld again.

Its really not that bad of a discussion when you dissect it. You should have expected this much attention though, since it covers people of all races and genders. Not to mention, that the title of the thread is pretty bold.

[Cupboard]

Phobus said:

My honest opinion on this is that the only reason these representational disproportions exist is because games are made predominantly by white guys of a certain age range.

Bullshit. RPGs include all different kinds of races and genders and guess what. All of them are played by "white guys of a certain age range".

Standards have changed. It used to be that you couldn't show women be tortured or physically abused in any way on television because it was harmful to family values and society's view of a pure female.

Now we see rape, torture, and violence depicted on women and all races in all forms of visual media. Still, white guys are the main target audience of video games even though MANY other player demographics are also represented.

[jmickle66666666]

Phobus said:

My honest opinion on this is that the only reason these representational disproportions exist is because games are made predominantly by white guys of a certain age range. They write what they know, because it's what easiest, it's what interests them and because it's a proven seller. Maybe if all the people who feel so strongly about this actually took the steps required to make their own games and make the difference, you'd then have more of the representation you're after. Sexuality barely even comes into it, when you consider how little sex is in games - I honestly view that as a perceived problem being projected on to games.

Yes, this is all true. Representation in the games industry is a problem (the figures compared to the people that play games is so vastly different) and it is something that is actively trying to be improved.

[dew]

Phobus said:

This shit just pisses me off. Somebody has an opinion that's so not yours that you have to tell us you feel sick? Bullshit, you're just trying to get "righteous" in on your indignation.

The vicious cycle of people getting offended by other people getting offended. Are you at least more offended than the original offendee?

My honest opinion on this is that the only reason these representational disproportions exist is because games are made predominantly by white guys of a certain age range.

Nerdy basement dwelling compudorks unable to grow out of their natural enviroment, eh? Dude, this isn't the early 90's anymore when the story/char development was written by the most assertive guy on the team in 5 minutes time. It definitely has to go through some execs who shoot down anything that could limit sales. You're pretty naive if you think it's not a corporate process. Actually, the most creative and experimental stories happen in the indie gaming industry, where I'd say less of the "phalocracy & white male patriarchy domination" happens. Are you seriously THAT DUMB to think Call of Duty story gets written by some white virgin nerds who just want to feel comfortable with what they know? When they don't know anything about being alpha, lol?

Sexuality barely even comes into it, when you consider how little sex is in games - I honestly view that as a perceived problem being projected on to games.

Sexuality doesn't happen, because the producers are so goddamn scared of backlash and hurting the sales of their AAA product. Again, clear self-censorship.

[Phobus]

TheCupboard said:

Bullshit. RPGs include all different kinds of races and genders and guess what. All of them are played by "white guys of a certain age range".

Uhuh, and that's not the same as making a game with a set protagonist or story and a lot of the time they're played that way entirely because the option is there, which rather implies people would play games with varied leads if the choice is there or made for them... I'm talking about the people who make the games. They don't need to be in the AAA industry to make said games either. They do well, it'll sell, they'll get their money and make bigger games and attract copycats. You don't change a medium by getting outraged or voicing your crippling weakness to contrary opinions, you get in there and make the difference.

[Scripten]

Phobus said:

My honest opinion on this is that the only reason these representational disproportions exist is because games are made predominantly by white guys of a certain age range. They write what they know, because it's what easiest, it's what interests them and because it's a proven seller. Maybe if all the people who feel so strongly about this actually took the steps required to make their own games and make the difference, you'd then have more of the representation you're after. Sexuality barely even comes into it, when you consider how little sex is in games - I honestly view that as a perceived problem being projected on to games.

Gonna have to disagree here on a few points. The independent games scene is getting a lot of people from outside "normal" (EI white dude) demographics. These devs often have characters that represent them and there's almost always an influx of angry gamers swooping in to tell them that they aren't "real" games, that they're just "pandering to other {INSERT MINORITY HERE] people", or, the best one, that they're being too Politically Correct(tm) when they aren't filling their games with angry white dudes or eye candy.

Beyond that, the issue of sexuality isn't that the female characters are or are not getting it on. It's that there's this trend for stereotypes like Boobs the Witch in every fantasy game. Sure, you could say that they are exercising their sexual freedoms, except that the characters often never extend in depth beyond being a pair of tits.

And please, don't tell me that it doesn't matter and isn't something we, as gamers/game developers, need to change. I've got plenty of female friends and family members who are turned off from games because they make them feel like they shouldn't be thought of as people. Because of my geographic location, I know fewer people who are not white, but I can easily see the issue extending to them. Judging from interviews and comments on various games, it's just tiresome. Most of us want more diversity just because it makes for more interesting stories. The alternative is Marcus Fenix and Aiden Peirce continuing to be the only two player characters that show up in 80-90% of games. And that is gross.

@hardcore_gamer: You seriously didn't know exactly the kind of shitstorm this would cause? Really?

[reality 2.0]

It's amazing how fucking video games create flamewars so easily. Nobody is ever gonna win, so I'm guaranteed free entertainment from reading the comments.

But on a serious note, why should someone care about a fictional characters race/gender/sexual orientation? people are getting killed in real life because of that, but fuck that shit, vidya gaemes are more important you shitlord!

[Phobus]

dew said:

Are you seriously THAT DUMB to think Call of Duty story gets written by some white virgin nerds who just want to feel comfortable with what they know? When they don't know anything about being alpha, lol?

Nice try, dickhead, but questioning the intelligence of my point doesn't undermine it. Call of Duty is written by exactly the kind of people that like action films and action games, hence why the campaigns play like a 5-hour string of Bond film set pieces. For the more technical information they go to people like Andy McNab and the overall drive to put a big, dumb blockbuster out there is made by suits in a boardroom somewhere. All of this is driven by their interest in, and knowledge of, action blockbusters, making those exactly a case of what I was talking about.


@Membrain: You've actually touched on a point I'd meant to bring up as to another reason why harping on at the industry won't help. The industry want our money, so if they capitulated to all of our demands for diversity, extra cool lasers and HD FF VII, that is them cynically pandering to give us what they know they'll get our money for. They know they'll be called out on it and get just as much shit from other demographics as they currently do, so ultimately they do what they want and what money dictates they should. As I've said, they won't change unless the people who want the change make the steps.

[Tarnsman]

Membrain said:

Beyond that, the issue of sexuality isn't that the female characters are or are not getting it on. It's that there's this trend for stereotypes like Boobs the Witch in every fantasy game. Sure, you could say that they are exercising their sexual freedoms, except that the characters often never extend in depth beyond being a pair of tits.

And please, don't tell me that it doesn't matter and isn't something we, as gamers/game developers, need to change. I've got plenty of female friends and family members who are turned off from games because they make them feel like they shouldn't be thought of as people.

Video game characters are shallow as fuck across the board, it's not like games have really well written male characters and then terribly written female characters, either they're both okay, or they're both garbage. There is no middle ground.

[geekmarine]

I would like to point out that sexuality does come up in video games, whether or not you realize it - how many games are about you, the protagonist, going out to rescue a princess, ostensibly because you want to bone her? Doesn't have to be outright stated, but that's sexuality driving video games right there.

[Tarnsman]

So if a man goes to rescue a woman, it's not because they're friends, it's because he wants to fuck her. Not so fast femnazi man-hating scum! Your rampant misandry is showing, stop oppressing the penis.

[dew]

Phobus said:

Nice try, dickhead, but questioning the intelligence of my point doesn't undermine it. Call of Duty is written by exactly the kind of people that like action films and action games, hence why the campaigns play like a 5-hour string of Bond film set pieces. For the more technical information they go to people like Andy McNab and the overall drive to put a big, dumb blockbuster out there is made by suits in a boardroom somewhere. All of this is driven by their interest in, and knowledge of, action blockbusters, making those exactly a case of what I was talking about.

You just parroted my words and tried to make them sound like they were your idea, you dumb fuck. The stories are amalgams of other all-male action fantasies with a huge dose of homosexual subtext disguised as bromance bonding/muscle adoration. Corporations are designing products that yield the maximum revenue by exploiting the exact tendencies found in the audience we're talking about in this thread. There's nothing unintentional about it at the authors' side, because everyone who tried otherwise got punished by bad sales. Stop acting like buyers would lap up different stuff if the authors had different mindset, you really underestimate free market in that.

[Scripten]

@Phobus: Sure, yelling at the bigwigs won't do anything. That goes for bringing back FPS games that aren't mostly corridor shooters and any other sort of movement among gamers. But as far as representation and acceptance goes, we're a far cry from even that. Just the fact that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of angry "fans" attacking female game devs and shitty media middle managers who think it's appropriate to ask people if "having someone who's just a pretty face on your team gives you a disadvantage" in the games industry is reprehensible.

@Tarnsman: Yeah, bad writing is pretty much always bad writing. There's no denying, however, that bad writing revolving around men at least leaves them some agency. The same is definitely not true with women. Hell, think about the idea of the black best friend that shows up all the time. He almost always dies or seems to die, though he, at least, gets to choose to be a sacrifice rather than just being kidnapped over and over.

[Phobus]

geekmarine said:

Doesn't have to be outright stated, but that's sexuality driving video games right there.

That's a weakness in this whole "rape culture" thing right there. Yes, the woman is the objective, but you could just as easily say that you're saving her for some sort of financial rewards or just because you're a good person... Or, in the version I prefer, because Mario doesn't actually care about the outcome of his actions, as long as they're fucking with Bowser's plan. But hey, what would I know, my intelligence is crippled by having a penis and therefore my logic is inferior.

EDIT: Hey dew, go fuck yourself!

[infurnus1]

hardcore_gamer said:

you people

...EXCUSE me?!

[dew]

Phobus said:

EDIT: Hey dew, go fuck yourself!

[Tarnsman]

Membrain said:

@Tarnsman: Yeah, bad writing is pretty much always bad writing. There's no denying, however, that bad writing revolving around men at least leaves them some agency. The same is definitely not true with women. Hell, think about the idea of the black best friend that shows up all the time. He almost always dies or seems to die, though he, at least, gets to choose to be a sacrifice rather than just being kidnapped over and over.

Again it comes back to pretty much every action adventure game being about Indiana Jones, even the ones with women (sometime blatantly - see Tomb Raider) are about the traditionally masculine hero and between character creation and just the overall diversity of characters nowadays I don't buy that women have no station in video games. The real argument here is "stop making every video game either Commando or Raiders of the Lost Ark" not any form of actual representation.

[Clonehunter]

We need a game where you control a rich, conservative, middle-aged white man in a prime body, who owns a Whore House filled with minority whores who are subjugated to white fantasies, from anyone who is white. The only way you can win is by screwing all of your employees while trying not to contract any viral diseases, while shooting up casinos filled with Native Americans and fighting off a street gang that's 100% black and who have heavy, near-unidentifiable accents that sound like slaughtered english and slirs.

[reality 2.0]

clonehunter, you're talking about the Grand Theft Auto franchise.

Also, what the fuck is a "white fantasy", I have a lot of fantasies, I do wonder which one would fall under what you're definition of "white fantasy" is.

[Scripten]

Phobus said:

That's a weakness in this whole "rape culture" thing right there. Yes, the woman is the objective, but you could just as easily say that you're saving her for some sort of financial rewards or just because you're a good person... Or, in the version I prefer, because Mario doesn't actually care about the outcome of his actions, as long as they're fucking with Bowser's plan. But hey, what would I know, my intelligence is crippled by having a penis and therefore my logic is inferior.

You're kind of missing the point still. It's pretty much irrelevant if there's implied sex and the reward. The main point isn't that the player is a rapist or some deluded shit like that. It's that she's a woman, thus she's only really useful as an object. Sure, Mario may just be saving her because she's the government head. It'd just be nice to see a king or hell, maybe a prince in there, too. I guess Toad kind of counts?

@Tarnsman: I suppose the best way to put this, from personal experience, is just that it'd be nice to play games with my girlfriend without having to ask which dude she'd prefer to be. And there's still just the fact that, good writing aside, the go to stereotypes paint everyone but the gruff white dude as either incapable or expendable. It's not like it's impossible.

@Clonehunter: I think there's something like that out there. Isn't that basically Postal?

[Clonehunter]

Postal (2) has some similar plot threads, but I'm sure the Dude is largely unaligned politically and he doesn't ever get a whore house as far as I know. Same with GTA series, which is more Cars related and drugs until CJ stepped up and recreated Boys 'n' tha' Hood or whatever. Then there was the Russian guy and V. (Hey, if the guy is Russian is he still white?)

[mrthejoshmon]

Clonehunter said:

Stuff

"Fox News' biggest hard on ever" would be the title of that game, hands down.

-

Also, why is it that when people discuss something to do with any form of morality what so ever it turns into a (rather entertaining to watch and often fun to get involved in just for lolz) rather heated argument involving actual insults?

[Kontra Kommando]

Clonehunter said:

(Hey, if the guy is Russian is he still white?)

Most Russians are fair-skinned Caucasoids, so I would say yes. Though, technically, only Anglo-Saxons and Germans from Saxony originally had this title when it was coined.

[reality 2.0]

because politics are serious business, mrthejoshmon.

[an_mutt]

Thread name: "Why do females/gays/non-whites have to be in video games?"

by 'hardcore_gamer'

lol

[Scripten]

This has actually been a relatively respectful topic save for a couple of people getting angry a few times.

[reality 2.0]

color me shocked membrain, I saw the thread when it was created this morning and was expecting it to be post hell'd within 20-30 minutes. I was genuinely surprised when I got home around 3pm and the thread was still up.

[Clonehunter]

I think the Cacowards should have an entry for Best EE Thread of 2014. The accompanying picture would be a golden Alleged Baby Jesus killing a Kitten.

[Phobus]

Membrain said:

You're kind of missing the point still. It's pretty much irrelevant if there's implied sex and the reward. The main point isn't that the player is a rapist or some deluded shit like that. It's that she's a woman, thus she's only really useful as an object.

Not really - you have to save her because she can't save herself. It could easily be a guy or an inanimate object and it wouldn't make any difference, but historically, fairy tales involved princesses needing saving, because they're a VIP that is unlikely to have any hope of fighting back, due to being young and having a courtly upbringing. The Mario series is basically just fairy tales and those have certain expectations. Yes, it'd be no real big deal to have a woman save a man in this scenario, but they're running off of a cliché that goes far back beyond the whole gender argument. Other examples will be following on from these tropes because that's what people grow up with. This isn't sexism so much as it's just unimaginative premises for games.

@dew: :D

[Technician]

Kontra Kommando said:

Its really not that bad of a discussion when you dissect it. You should have expected this much attention though, since it covers people of all races and genders.

We're mostly white, cis, males with the exception of a couple of notable members, and they're not even here. Much like our guaranteed fedora-tipping in theology/evolution threads, we're just taking the opportunity to shine our progressive badges.