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AkiraZXE

Another Malaysia Airlines jet crashed, over Ukraine, likely shot down

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Seems roughly 300 people died in the crash/attack. Most of the details in the article. Maybe I'm just a bit naive, but I can't say that firing surface-to-air missiles at unconfirmed targets in an airspace where civilian planes might be passing through could ever end in anything but disaster, regardless of whether or not you're in the middle of "hostilities". Shitty that it ended up killing 300 innocent people over something like that. Whoever's responsible really fucked this one up.

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Supposedly it was flying too high to be in range of anti-aircraft weapons.

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The Russian military has surface to air missile systems capable of hitting a target 72 thousand feet in the sky. 33 thousand is a piece of cake. These rebels in east Ukraine have been getting heavy weapons from Russia in recent weeks, and training.

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From what I understand, the most probable version is that the separatists managed to capture an Ukrainian Buk carrier and used it willy nilly. They had success in shooting down some Ukrainian military planes just recently, so it's in line with that. Also Russians commented in the sense that it's Ukraine's fault, because it happened in their air space, but they didn't blame the Ukrainian army, so they probably know and just create a bit of smokescreen to cover up this massive cock-up by the separatists. All I can say: if it's confirmed, carpet-bomb them into the ground.

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Greyghost: The last thing we need is to intervene militarily. Look how well that did for Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam.

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Zed said:

Apparently the Ucranian Security Service has released an intercepted phone call where rebels discuss the incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw&feature=youtu.be

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

Of course, this is yet to be verified independently.


Aside from that, the separatists and Russian media sources have been actively censoring earlier reports of an An-26 shot down in the same area at around the same time. They have also been censoring all mentions of the separatists owning a Buk system (there was a tweet deleted that confirmed that, I believe). All these actions only increase the likelihood that the airplane was shot down by the separatists. Moreover, the separatists have been known to shoot down planes much more than the Ukrainian army, including one earlier this week in roughly the same place as this plane. Of course, this still isn't absolute proof, but it's pretty significant evidence against the separatists.

Really fucked up, as the airplane was flying way too high to be an An-26 or any military transport plane, so it shouldn't have been a target at all.

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Looks like Ollie and Slade didn't get to disable the AA missile launcher in this AU.

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For people who can read Russian, I'll leave a few pics here:






The separatists have since deleted the tweets and YT vids where they were bragging about having a Buk anti-aircraft system and having used it to shoot down a "second An-26" (that turned out to be a Boeing 777).

They had already shot down an An-26 and a Su-25 of the Ukrainian military. All signs point to them shooting down the airliner by mistake, believing it to be another Ukrainian troop transport; but they're frantically trying to put the blame on Ukraine as a form of damage control. Lots of conspiracy theories have emerged, backed by Russian media like RT, claiming it was shot down by an Ukrainian fighter, or by two Ukrainian fighters, or that Ukraine thought it was Putin's plane, etc. Those don't make sense, Ukraine has absolutely no reason to attack civilian airliners or make attempts on prominent Russian officials, not when they're doing everything they can to beat the separatist movement without giving Russia a pretext to invade.

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I saw this on /b/ yesterday. everyone was going "it's happening! world war 3 is coming everyone!"

you really think that's gonna happen? Another world war?

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reality 2.0 said:

I saw this on /b/ yesterday. everyone was going "it's happening! world war 3 is coming everyone!"

you really think that's gonna happen? Another world war?

You do realize the "it's happening" meme has reached a point where it's used ironically, right?

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I know it's used ironically technician.


I was just wondering, from the discussion /b/ was having, what are the odds of another world war happening in the future. Is that even possible?

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reality 2.0 said:

I was just wondering, from the discussion /b/ was having, what are the odds of another world war happening in the future. Is that even possible?

We only go to war with countries we can bully. Not necessarily win, mind you. If Pakistan didn't have nukes, I'm sure they would have suffered the same fate as Afghanistan. And rightfully so.

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reality 2.0 said:

what are the odds of another world war happening in the future.

It's inevitable, what we don't know is when and where it will start.

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Watching the Obama press conference. He said that it was Russia supporting rebels fired the SAM. So neither country takes the heat, just rebels. Not a country, just a select group.

My local news had said earlier that it was a common attack route for bombers and troop droppers.

Putin had a minute of silence for the plane.

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The USA and their lapdogs the EU are really desperate to lure Russia into drawing "first blood" (?) by directly intervening or framing them into the role of the "bad guys", but Putin is too smart for that. It's exhausting and "murky", yeah, but his best (actually, his only) strategic option is to patiently wait, only covertly giving support to the "pro Russian separatists", and just perform damage control until the USA and the UE get the message that they won't have an easy and quick victory here (as if the USA had a quick & easy victory ANYWHERE in the last 50 years....oh well, maybe in Panama? And that was literally in their own back yard).

I mentioned "first blood" even though a lot of blood has been spilled already, but that is just "zero blood". It's just the blood of the pawns, the agents, the agitators, the generally expendable, the unlucky and of those who were "collaterally damaged". Nobody is mentioning them now, and nobody will mention them in the future.

No, the "first blood" the USA is hoping to see is that of Ukrainians directly spilled under the orders of Putin and the Red Army, but that is not going to happen. It will always be a protracted, simmering, low-intensity conflict ripe with uncertainty and murkiness.

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That may be the case, Maes, but it doesn't change the fact that international opinion will sour toward Russia and opponents of Putin's regime will find much greater support. Seriously, who engages in proxy wars so carelessly, (besides the US, the great satan)

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TheCupboard said:

opponents of Putin's regime will find much greater support.


You mean those living outside of Russia, right? Those can do as they please, they are harmless. Oh you meant inside Russia...well, I guess Putin's approval rating will go to merely 69% from 70+% it is now :-p

Actually, there's no good reason NOT to support Putin's policy if you are Russian: the ONLY alternative is having him (or a puppet put in his place) bend over backwards like a second Gorbachev or turn Russia into a second Ukraine. No, thanks. Or do you think that by denying Putin, Russia will suddenly be accepted as an equal by the USA and the EU? Showing weakness at this point can be much worse than a slipping approval rating.

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Yes, all those people living outside of Russia, next to Russia, and all the journalists the Russian police have silenced. There can be no disagreement if there is no argument in the first place, right?

Russia is already looking strong because they helped negotiate a chemical weapons disarmament in Syria. Now they are looking absolutely careless by funding separatist yahoos who like shooting down planes just for kicks.

By the way, I really miss DarkJediRevived188 or whatever he was, he provided an interesting pro-Russia counterpoint argument.

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GreyGhost said:

It's inevitable

No it's not. Another war in such size and scope would necessitate the use of nuclear weaponry and the various power structures that exist have far to much to lose in that scenario.

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I'll believe that Russia is actively funding the separatist when someone can give me evidence that can be verified by several independent parties that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt, Russia is funding them. In tell I see such proof, i'm going to continue to call the idea of Russia funding the separatists a bunch of political propaganda being drummed up by the corrupt mainstream media and the US government.

The simple truth of the situation is that the Russian government has way to much to loose at this point. There recent trade deal with China and the trade deals with the rest of the BRICS countries are way to important for Russia to jeopardize over the current mess in Ukraine. If anything it's those trade deals that are making the US gov push for a war with Russia. Because Russia is working with several countries to do away with their dependence on the Dollar and moving to curve the US gov's influence internationally.

Also if any of you think the US is so involved in the current crisis in Ukraine because the US government really give a shit about the people of Ukraine. Keep in mind the the son of the current US Vice President Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, was given a job as a CEO in Ukraine's largest oil company only a couple of days after Joe Biden's first visit to Ukraine after this whole mess started. That should tell you everything about the US governments involvement in Ukraine. If anything the US gov looks at Ukraine as another US military base and another guaranteed vote in the UN.

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TheCupboard said:

Now they are looking absolutely careless by funding separatist yahoos who like shooting down planes just for kicks.


That they are funding "separatist yahoos" is undeniable, as it's part of the inevitable strategy Russia must follow to avoid being annihilated. And the strategy consists of funding said yahoos....but do no more than that, and see how far the other side and its supposed allies are willing to go. It's the smartest move to do, as the ball, so to speak, is in the opponent's court. It's the EU, the USA and Kiev that are in Zugzwang, not Russia.

But as to who shot down the plane, that's debatable. Kiev could be just as guilty (and much more probable to have done so, as only Ukraine's regular army has access to SAM missiles with 30k+ ft. range, not the separatists.

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There's a much different meaning to "being annihilated" and simply allowing a border nation to conduct its own conflict of who should rule, whether they are pro-Russia or not. Just because Russia used to be big and strong doesn't mean they are required to intervene in the affairs of their neighbors. Even the US wouldn't intervene in a Mexican civil war for danger of causing unrest and a refugee problem.

But as to who shot down the plane, that's debatable. Kiev could be just as guilty (and much more probable to have done so, as only Ukraine's regular army has access to SAM missiles with 30k+ ft. range, not the separatists.


Russia has been fomenting the separatists every step of the way. Why shouldn't they have access to the best SAM missiles that money can buy, considering Russia is the largest arms dealer in the world based on its past history. I thought Russia was fighting in order to prevent its own annihilation.

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Quast said:

No it's not. Another war in such size and scope would necessitate the use of nuclear weaponry and the various power structures that exist have far to much to lose in that scenario.

Not necessarily, the next world war might just be a continuation of the sort of low to medium level regional conflicts that have been going on since the end of WW2, except there'll be more of them. If most of the fighting is done by proxy with the major powers avoiding direct confrontation, the war might remain nuke free, though one nut with a nuke who believes he's doing God's bidding might be all it takes to turn the conflict into a "use 'em or lose 'em" nuclear free-for-all.

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Maes said:

But as to who shot down the plane, that's debatable. Kiev could be just as guilty (and much more probable to have done so, as only Ukraine's regular army has access to SAM missiles with 30k+ ft. range, not the separatists.

It is possible that Ukrainian army could pull that stunt too. Gives some good guy-points if it falls on the area controlled by separatists. Along with information that they have SAMs too.

But... Why separatists removed the pictures of the BUK? They deleted those pictures, tweets and videos. But nothing is safe in the internet. If they didn't shot down, why take them down? With that done, they look guilty.

Oh well. What they say about the first victim of war?

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CorSair said:

It is possible that Ukrainian army could pull that stunt too. Gives some good guy-points if it falls on the area controlled by separatists. Along with information that they have SAMs too.

Impossible. As you can see, the Ukrainians didn't gain anything tangible immediatelly, because Russia is still around the corner, pushing weapons to the separatists, only this slowly snowballing international support to smash the separatists instead of negotiating peace, because screw the terrorists. Now if they did it and got busted over this, oh wow, the circus that would've ensued would eclipse the sun. RT (=Putinpress) would be having a field day, trumpeting to the world about Fascist Poroshenko and Russia's need of liberating Ukraine with force.

And trust me - Russia would know, because they have a history of knowing.

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