Doom [4] reveal first impressions

[Agentbromsnor]

Touchdown said:

Because QTEs and takedowns are not the same thing. Takedowns are contextual actions that require pressing a single button. QTEs are cutscenes where you have to go through a sequence of pressing buttons highlighted on a screen to progress.

Also, takedowns / executions appear in pretty much every modern action game. It's not BDs invention.

I really can't tell the difference. I get that some QTE's are part of cutscenes, but this hasn't been the rule anymore for most recent games.

[Touchdown]

These are QTEs (or this) - the player is locked in a cutscene with no regular control of the character and has to press buttons displayed on the screen to advance the pre-determined cutscene.

These are takedowns - in the right context (like unspotted, or from behind) the player presses a single button (dedicated TD key or a melee key like in DOOM) to dispatch an enemy.

Takedowns do not require you to press a combination of keys and only take control for the short duration of the animation.

[Agentbromsnor]

Touchdown said:

These are QTEs (or this) - the player is locked in a cutscene with no regular control of the character and has to press buttons displayed on the screen to advance the pre-determined cutscene.

These are takedowns - in the right context (like unspotted, or from behind) the player presses a single button (dedicated TD key or a melee key like in DOOM) to dispatch an enemy.

Takedowns do not require you to press a combination of keys and only take control for the short duration of the animation.

I already explained to you that QTE's are not always part of cutscenes anymore. They traditionally are, but this is not some sort of 'rule'.

Both traditional QTE's and takedown QTE's reinforce the same lazy artificial gameplay (IMO), hence why I generally consider them to be the same.

[Touchdown]

Can you give an example of the 'takedown QTE' then? I don't think I have seen anything fitting that description. (unless you mean every takedown, like the ones in Far Cry 3 - in that case, I disagree as this has nothing to do with the concept of QTE)

Either way, from what little I've heard, takedowns / executions in DOOM happen through doing a simple melee and depending on the context (position of the player and the enemy) different animation plays. So it won't resemble any kind of button-smashing QTE.

[Agentbromsnor]

Touchdown said:

Can you give an example of the 'takedown QTE' then? I don't think I have seen anything fitting that description. (unless you mean every takedown, like the ones in Far Cry 3 - in that case, I disagree as this has nothing to do with the concept of QTE)

Either way, from what little I've heard, takedowns / executions in DOOM happen through doing a simple melee and depending on the context (position of the player and the enemy) different animation plays. So it won't resemble any kind of button-smashing QTE.

I'm curious. How would you identify the QTE's in games such as Resident Evil 4 (and pretty much every RE game after that)? Are they "takedowns", or are they just regular QTE's?

To me, it's just odd that you're trying to distinguish different types of QTE's. To me, and pretty much every other gamer I talk to, a QTE is a moment in a game that requires the player to quickly press a button (sometimes random button), usually to avoid a negative consequence.

Regardless of how it is executed, I don't think this type of artificial gameplay should be encouraged. I'm not going to judge Doom 4's form of QTE's yet since so little has been revealed of it. I won't mind it that much if it's not too obtuse.

[Koko Ricky]

I don't think it's a QTE, it's either automatic or an optional one-button push. I don't think id is stupid enough to make it a QTE.

[Touchdown]

Agentbromsnor said:

I'm curious. How would you identify the QTE's in games such as Resident Evil 4 (and pretty much every RE game after that)? Are they "takedowns", or are they just regular QTE's?

I haven't played that. I tried to find Re4 QTE on YT and all I got was a knife fight that fits swiftly into my definition of a QTE: a cutscene where you occasionally press a button.

Agentbromsnor said:

a QTE is a moment in a game that requires the player to quickly press a button (sometimes random button), usually to avoid a negative consequence.

You're right. Except this is NOTHING like takedowns in games like Far Cry 3 (except for the boss fights), Metro Last Light, Dishonored, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, BioShock Infinite, etc.

The game does NOT require you to do takedowns. You don't have to quickly press a button because YOU decide when to perform a takedown. It's not a random button because each game has a dedicated takedown button (or two: lethal and non-lethal). And you do this to dispatch an enemy, not to avoid pre-determined consequences.

Seriously, I'm lost here. I've even linked videos and they are totally different yet you still claim they're the same. I don't get it.

[Agentbromsnor]

Touchdown said:

I haven't played that. I tried to find Re4 QTE on YT and all I got was a knife fight that fits swiftly into my definition of a QTE: a cutscene where you occasionally press a button.

[/B]

Then you haven't looked very long. RE 4 has a couple of moments where QTE buttonpresses occur during the action, not to mention bosses have them too. So yes: Quick Time Events.

Touchdown said:
You're right. Except this is NOTHING like takedowns in games like Far Cry 3 (except for the boss fights), Metro Last Light, Dishonored, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, BioShock Infinite, etc.

The game does NOT require you to do takedowns. You don't have to quickly press a button because YOU decide when to perform a takedown. It's not a random button because each game has a dedicated takedown button (or two: lethal and non-lethal). And you do this to dispatch an enemy, not to avoid pre-determined consequences.

Seriously, I'm lost here. I've even linked videos and they are totally different yet you still claim they're the same. I don't get it.

Look. It's okay to like this sort of thing, but don't start playing silly word games with me just because you prefer to call certain QTE's a different way. Besides, I know I can choose to 'takedown' an enemy, but what if the roles are reversed? If an enemy attacks you which requires a button press, is that not a QTE? Do you now see how pointless this stupid word game is?

Regardless, I know some modern games that have that, and it fucking blows.

[Touchdown]

Last try. If this fails, I'm done with this discussion because I don't understand your reasoning at all.

From Wiki:

"In video games, a quick time event (QTE) is a method of context-sensitive gameplay in which the player performs actions on the control device shortly after the appearance of an on-screen prompt. (...) QTEs generally involve the player following onscreen prompts to press buttons or manipulate joysticks within a limited amount of time. (...) Such actions are either atypical of the normal controls during the game, or in a different context from their assigned functions."

From Wiktionary:

"(video games) An interactive cut scene-like sequence in a video game where the player has a limited time in which to push a button, or sequence of buttons, displayed on screen."

From Urban Dictionary:

"A method of "gameplay" developed for video games, a 'quick time event' is a section of a game where you are only required to press specific buttons when they show up on screen."

From Giant Bomb:

"A Quick Time Event is typically a form of interactive cut-scene, where main control of the on-screen action is replaced by a lengthy animation with limited user interaction. (...) Although the intention is to make cut-scenes more interactive..."


Takedown is an alternative to a simple melee attack. That's it. Instead of swinging a knife, you see a throat-slitting animation. THAT'S IT. You don't wait for a prompt; you initiate it yourself, like a normal attack. It's not any different from flipping a light switch with E or firing a gun with RMB, you press Q and you kill an enemy. It's NOT an event during which the game tells you what to press.

Now, as for dodging, if there's a dedicated dodge button, then it's not QTE. If the game tells you during a sequence to smash a button or something like this, that's a form of QTE. If smashing a button will shake off an enemy that clings to you, that's a context-sensitive action because smashing a button in a different situation will not have any effect. Therefore it's QTE because it only works as a replacement for an action that doesn't have a dedicated button.

However takedowns do have dedicated buttons AND they're player-initiated, not enforced. Takedown is an animated melee. Nothing more.

[Agentbromsnor]

Touchdown said:

Last try. If this fails, I'm done with this discussion because I don't understand your reasoning at all.

From Wiki:

"In video games, a quick time event (QTE) is a method of context-sensitive gameplay in which the player performs actions on the control device shortly after the appearance of an on-screen prompt. (...) QTEs generally involve the player following onscreen prompts to press buttons or manipulate joysticks within a limited amount of time. (...) Such actions are either atypical of the normal controls during the game, or in a different context from their assigned functions."

From Wiktionary:

"(video games) An interactive cut scene-like sequence in a video game where the player has a limited time in which to push a button, or sequence of buttons, displayed on screen."

From Urban Dictionary:

"A method of "gameplay" developed for video games, a 'quick time event' is a section of a game where you are only required to press specific buttons when they show up on screen."

From Giant Bomb:

"A Quick Time Event is typically a form of interactive cut-scene, where main control of the on-screen action is replaced by a lengthy animation with limited user interaction. (...) Although the intention is to make cut-scenes more interactive..."


Takedown is an alternative to a simple melee attack. That's it. Instead of swinging a knife, you see a throat-slitting animation. THAT'S IT. You don't wait for a prompt; you initiate it yourself, like a normal attack. It's not any different from flipping a light switch with E or firing a gun with RMB, you press Q and you kill an enemy. It's NOT an event during which the game tells you what to press.

Now, as for dodging, if there's a dedicated dodge button, then it's not QTE. If the game tells you during a sequence to smash a button or something like this, that's a form of QTE. If smashing a button will shake off an enemy that clings to you, that's a context-sensitive action because smashing a button in a different situation will not have any effect. Therefore it's QTE because it only works as a replacement for an action that doesn't have a dedicated button.

However takedowns do have dedicated buttons AND they're player-initiated, not enforced. Takedown is an animated melee. Nothing more.

You're just sidestepping my arguments now; I just gave you a few clear cut examples of QTE's that do NOT fall into your 'standard' of what a QTE is 'supposed to be', yet anybody with two eyes and a brain can tell you that it IS a QTE.

The quotes you presented generally actually sum it up pretty well. This one in particular: "A Quick Time Event is typically a form of interactive cut-scene". 'Typically'. I.e: NOT 'necessarily'.

Even if some of those mags did confirm to your standards, that doesn't make them right per say. This looks like a rather poor attempt at playing a numbers game in order to try and win an argument.

A game does NOT require there to be a cutscene in order to present the player with a QTE. Why is this is so hard to understand?

Touchdown said:
"If smashing a button will shake off an enemy that clings to you, that's a context-sensitive action because..."

Bull fucking shit. Context-sensitive my ass. Stop making little categories that have little to no clear definition of their own. If it acts like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck. If a game presents you with a prompt asking to mash a button, either during gameplay OR cutscenes, it's a QTE.

Touchdown said:
"However takedowns do have dedicated buttons AND they're player-initiated, not enforced"

Still haven't replied to my question about enemies pinning the player down. There's plenty of modern games that have enemies who can pin you down, and have you enter a QTE (sometimes multiple buttons). You're not directly in control of that.

[Touchdown]

Like I said, I'm done here. I'll just reply to this little gem:

Agentbromsnor said:

Bull fucking shit. Context-sensitive my ass. Stop making little categories that have little to no clear definition of their own. If it acts like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck. If a game presents you with a prompt asking to mash a button, either during gameplay OR cutscenes, it's a QTE.

That's exactly what I said. You just cut out the quote to take it out of context. I'll show you:

"If smashing a button will shake off an enemy that clings to you, that's a context-sensitive action because smashing a button in a different situation will not have any effect. Therefore it's QTE because it only works as a replacement for an action that doesn't have a dedicated button."

See?

[Krispy]

As a bystander, I'd just like to say that I resent the fact that you two or three people derailed this thread with your petty arguments.

[Koko Ricky]

I second that. We only got into this debate because Doom 4 has fatalities, but it's pretty clear from the demo that the player performs these attacks on his own volition rather than responding to a prompt. This semantics game of whether it not it constitutes a QTE is irrelevant, since it's been established that the most annoying possibility--being promoted to bit buttons as a gameplay element--has already been eliminated.

[raymoohawk]

goatlord did you see new monsters in the presentaion?

[William Blazkowicz]

Where the maps open and resembled something from TUDoom, Doom II, or Final Doom? Or where they the more extremely grey, corridorish levels of Doom 3? And lastly, did it have reloading and have new wep. designs?

[DooM_RO]

William Blazkowicz said:

Where the maps open and resembled something from TUDoom, Doom II, or Final Doom? Or where they the more extremely grey, corridorish levels of Doom 3? And lastly, did it have reloading and have new wep. designs?

...Did you read any of their posts?

[Koko Ricky]

I didn't see any reloading on the weapons, except possibly the double-barreled shotgun. The maps were difficult to define as far as openness, since the player already knew where he was going and didn't stop to explore. But they're a lot fucking bigger than Doom 3's cramped spaces, so it looks like exploration will be a big part of gameplay (I hope). There were no new enemies shown except for one or two new former humans that kind of looked Quake-ish.

[MajorRawne]

Just been reading the initial posts. Doom 4 sounds far better than anything we could have hoped for considering how off-track Doom 3 was. Ironic how Doom seems to be resurgent now id Software's original team is gone. The last time a game sounded worth waiting for was the X-Com remake.

One thing that jars: why do long-term Doom fans find it weird that there's no reloading? Have they forgotten how Doom works? :P

[Carny Goat]

The modders, gamers, and everyone in this community have given this classic a legendary standing that can't seem to possibly be topped. You guys have done far more than what the industry could ever dream of in the given time the source code came into existence. Whatever comes from Doom 4, it will either make or break this industry as Doom to me has always been the flagship of not only FPS gaming, but development and innovation concerning the usage of ongoing and evolving technology.

If it's truly something we can build on, Doom 4 could be something we can "do it all over again" with. Why should we settle for anything less than what has been delivered? This could very well be the last game under the Doom Franchise, the final bow from a struggling company and it's new heathen overlord Bethesda. I don't expect much else but a final hurrah. Let us believe, but not hype, in the spirit that has given us so much joy and inspiration over the years that is Doom.

Other than that speech, my doubts are still pretty high, I don't have much to go on but someone's description, reports of company disputes, a single CGI trailer, and maybe a few leaked screenshots? Doom 4 has a lot riding on it. And it doesn't help that they keep quiet about it.. Skepticism, protect me if all else fails..

[Koko Ricky]

As someone who has been building up their expectations for six years, I was anything but disappointed by the reveal. What little was shown has too much going for it to be a dud. The action, violence, atmosphere and precise, fast movement that defined the original was ever present. What's still missing is how dynamic the maps will be and how demonic/awesome the monsters will be. I'm personally feeling optimistic id has us covered.

[raymoohawk]

man, i really hope doom 4 turns out good, i actually liked doom 3, but nowhere near as much as the originals. so what about the monster sizes? where they similar to the originals or where they larger?

[Koko Ricky]

Seemed like the manc and hell knights were bigger.

[Jaxxoon R]

it's qte no it's context sensitive no takedown no

[Touchdown]

Just a random comment, but I've heard that one of the reasons id didn't want to publicly show DOOM was that a lot of the graphical stuff was about to go through an overhaul (don't have a good source for that info, but it supposedly comes from id guys who were at QC), stuff like lighting and particles. It makes sense considering id team got reinforced by Tiago Sousa as a Lead Rendering Programmer in July this year. If you don't know who he is, well, I'm sure you've seen some of his work: Far Cry, Crysis 1-3, CryEngine 1-3. I'm not sure how far they can push Tech 6 with 1080p/60fps on consoles but with Tiago at the helm they can't go wrong.

[Koko Ricky]

They claimed at the reveal that neo-Doom would be using idtech6, which is still so early in development that its wiki page is sorely incomplete. What I'm guessing is that it was using a beta version of idtech6 that will receive a major overhaul in the next few months/year. Also, as to the QTE war the reveal's "fatalities" have stirred up: There were no on-screen prompts. So it's either a single button push, or something that automatically engages when a dying enemy is in point-blank range.

[Carny Goat]

Well you got me excited when you said Doom 64 feeling in some areas.
I think that has my attention as that is one of my favorite atmospheres.

[Touchdown]

GoatLord said:

They claimed at the reveal that neo-Doom would be using idtech6, which is still so early in development that its wiki page is sorely incomplete. What I'm guessing is that it was using a beta version of idtech6 that will receive a major overhaul in the next few months/year.

Yep, that's what I think. The wiki, btw, is full of nonsense. Carmack mentioned 'Tech 6' years ago and speculated it might do voxels and raycasting but the current Tech 6 is not necessarily that. In fact, it's probably completely different from what he initially wanted to do.

GoatLord said:

Also, as to the QTE war the reveal's "fatalities" have stirred up: There were no on-screen prompts. So it's either a single button push, or something that automatically engages when a dying enemy is in point-blank range.

Like I said before, Pete Hines has confirmed that these executions are a simple melee, single-button used for melee. I assume you have a separate button for melee (as opposed to selecting fists) and if an enemy is damaged enough, a melee will result in a finishing move (see BioShock Infinite for an example). The animation however is dependant on the context. What that means is that if an enemy is close to a wall, the player will smash his head against a wall. If the player is jumping down, he will stomp an enemy. Etc. The game decides which animation to play based on the 'context' but for a player it's a simple melee attack.

[snapshot]

Linguica said:

Finishing moves on enemies? So Doom 4 is ripping off Brutal Doom... we come (sort of) full circle...

http://youtu.be/XxmNX0BtgkM?t=23s

Hmm,Yeah ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlXv_SkUQ8M

[DooM_RO]

Holy shit...the comments section. My brain....

[snapshot]

DooM_RO said:

Holy shit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KLzp5LTHgo