NJ Man Displays ISIS Flag in Front of Home

[Kontra Kommando]

http://pix11.com/2014/08/13/new-jersey-man-hangs-isis-flag-outside-his-home/

People have the right to express themselves. But this certainly merits concern from the community. The same scrutiny should done for assholes that fly other types of hateful flags as well.

EDIT:

According to the latest update by the News, the man claimed he had it up there for 10 years. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He definitely has the right to fly his flag; I never disputed that. All I was saying is that others have the right to their concerns as well. Perhaps now that we are all a little less ignorant about what the flag means, (it was part of his religion) we can understand that it is yet another case of a symbol being bastardized by extremists; much like the Hindu swastika.

[Fulgrim]

I don't agree with it. But, that does not mean I'm going to get my boxers in a bunch because my neighbors fly a ISIS flag, a Nazi flag or a rebel flag. Because they are just flags. Just like all other inanimate objects, they only have as much power over you, as you choose to give them. Also, getting freaked out about this and saying it merits concern from the community clearly shows all the stupid misguided Muslim propaganda is doing its job, turning once rational people into a bunch of irrational nut jobs. Who will run for cover when every they hear the word Muslim. Just because the guy displays an ISIS flag, it does not mean he is going to become a suicide bomber and blow up the nearest McDonald's.

[AkiraZXE]

That article links to its source, which is here. Apparently the flag wasn't associated with the ISIS until recently, and then it's a coincidental association rather than an explicit one. Could be wrong since I know little to nothing about flags, but it seems to be the case here. The guy apparently had no idea the flag had been used by the ISIS, and apparently nobody else did either until they posted his fucking address on Twitter. That's probably the worst part of this, actually. Aside from the fact that he can fly any flag he wants so long as he doesn't do anything actually harmful, you don't go publicly calling somebody a terrorist supporter and putting their address on the internet. Even worse if you're wrong.

Anyways, the guy didn't know what the flag may or may not have meant, nor did anyone else, and it should have been left at that. Then this asshole comes through town, sees the flag and tries to stir up shit which could (and may still) have ended with some sort of serious crime committed against an innocent man because of an idiotic public. It really concerns me that this dude just wanted to fly his damn flag which he thought meant nothing, in innocence, and there are people who are seriously still going to judge him for it.

[geo]

Uh boy.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't ISIS taken over Iraq is it? ISIS has restored facilities and stuff.

I heard that the US will now be arming Kurds. Guns solve guns.

[FTM]

lol at the comments in the first link

[Cupboard]

The guy has a right to express his religion. Who cares if some yahoos also use the symbol? He picked the right country to fly his flag for *cough* 10 years *cough*.

[Springy]

Akira_98 said:

The guy apparently had no idea the flag had been used by the ISIS, and apparently nobody else did either until they posted his fucking address on Twitter.

Disgusting, that sort of thing may be acceptable in America but elsewhere action would have been taken instead of jumping to conclusions about the flag in question. Don't get me wrong, of course it will warrant some form of concern but you can't just assume that a piece of material is being displayed in a hateful manner without some form of hard evidence. Which of course leads us to the point of how will it be proved that the flag is being used as a symbol of hate? All you can really do is go by word of mouth.

[Clonehunter]

Isn't this basically like how the Nazis took a symbol for piece, turned it 30 degrees, and and now it's a hate symbol?

[geo]

Clonehunter said:

Isn't this basically like how the Nazis took a symbol for piece, turned it 30 degrees, and and now it's a hate symbol?

I thought it was Egyptian symbol for power.

[Fulgrim]

geo said:

I thought it was Egyptian symbol for power.

According to the wiki: Swastika, a symbol of auspiciousness in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

There are many statues of Buddha with a Swastika on his chest. For example the largest Buddha statue in the world has a swastika on his chest.
http://www.1000lonelyplaces.com/tourist-destination/tian-tan-buddha-on-lantau-island-hong-kong/

TheCupboard said:

The guy has a right to express his religion. Who cares if some yahoos also use the symbol? He picked the right country to fly his flag for *cough* 10 years *cough*.

Exactly, he had the freaking flag displayed for ten damn years before anyone said anything about it. Now all of the sudden its a big deal. If anything peoples negative reaction shows nothing but paranoia and ignorance.

[dew]

TheCupboard said:

The guy has a right to express his religion. Who cares if some yahoos also use the symbol? He picked the right country to fly his flag for *cough* 10 years *cough*.

Now wait a second. That black flag doesn't represent his religion or a country of his origin. As far as I understand the symbolism, it represents the caliphate, an Islamic state under the Caliph and the Sharia law. It is most definitely a show of hostility and belittlement to the country he lives in and it is most certainly something incompatible with democracy. On the other hand, it is not exclusively the flag of ISIS as they use pre-existing symbolism.

The guy may be innocent in this case, but I wouldn't defend him too much, he's still most probably a bigoted as fuck hardcore muslim. Or a theoretical wannabe of that.

[ducon]

ISIS flag? I thought it was this:

[geekmarine]

I don't really give a damn what the flag stands for, or what his intentions were. What matters to me is when someone starts saying the authorities need to get involved. It could be an open display of contempt for the United States, but he still has every right to fly that flag. Of course, others have the right to criticize it - but saying the government needs to step in is going too far. Eh, but what do I know? We talk a big game about freedom in this country, but we're pretty damn quick to shut it down when it's the freedom to express something that makes people feel uncomfortable.

So yeah, could be a symbol of his hatred of the United States for all I know, I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on it, but while others have a right to say they don't like it, I don't believe the authorities should have the right to make him take it down.

[Kontra Kommando]

This is how I look at it. If you show off something that has intrinsically negative connotations to it, others will raise concerns. Does it mean he definitely is a terrorist, or an ISIS supporter; no. However, it does raise the possibility. There in fact have been a number terrorist cells in New Jersey, some of them in parts of the state I go through. As a matter of fact the terrorists that flew the planes into the world trade center lived in Paterson, NJ, beforehand.

The thing is, it was not the authorities that had initially got involved. But rather the community had called on the authorities, because they felt concerned about it.

[Technician]

His land, his right. He could be flying a swastika for all I care. But ISIS is a movement that needs to be dealt with before it gets worse. And it will. Besides, the flag, or should I say slogan, has been hijacked by the organization.

Fuck that moon and star has been hijacked from being a Turkic exclusive symbol to Sunni Islamic symbol.

Kontra Kommando said:

This is how I look at it. If you show off something that has intrinsically negative connotations to it, others will raise concerns. Does it mean he definitely is a terrorist, or an ISIS supporter; no. However, it does raise the possibility. There in fact have been a number terrorist cells in New Jersey, some of them in parts of the state I go through. As a matter of fact the terrorists that flew the planes into the world trade center lived in Paterson, NJ, beforehand.

The thing is, it was not the authorities that had initially got involved. But rather the community had called on the authorities, because they felt concerned about it.

Yeah, the terrorist is really going to single himself out in a country that can detain you without warrant for being a suspected terrorist.

[Aliotroph?]

That circular ISIS logo looks like a mission patch from a generic sci-fi TV movie.

I'm suspicious of anyone who flies flags outside their house.

[Technician]

Aliotroph? said:

That circular ISIS logo looks like a mission patch from a generic sci-fi TV movie.

I'm suspicious of anyone who flies flags outside their house.

It's probably American made, much like the term ISIS. I'm sure this black flag is all they use to identify with.

[Aliotroph?]

3M: we don't make totalitarian logos - we make totalitarian logos better.

[FireFish]

Aliotroph? said:
I'm suspicious of anyone who flies flags outside their house. [/B]

Then do not come to western europe when there are gigantic soccer matches going on. in every village and every town... FLAGS EVERYWHERE !

[Cupboard]

dew said:

Now wait a second. That black flag doesn't represent his religion or a country of his origin. As far as I understand the symbolism, it represents the caliphate, an Islamic state under the Caliph and the Sharia law. It is most definitely a show of hostility and belittlement to the country he lives in and it is most certainly something incompatible with democracy. On the other hand, it is not exclusively the flag of ISIS as they use pre-existing symbolism.

The guy may be innocent in this case, but I wouldn't defend him too much, he's still most probably a bigoted as fuck hardcore muslim. Or a theoretical wannabe of that.

Way to go, enlightened internet warrior.

Absolutely it represents his religion, I don't see an edict that reprimands him from displaying it. I'm sure that you can find numerous (recent) sources that attribute the the black flag with ISIS but the fact remains that the source of the conflict is is entirely man-made.

[Doomkid]

If he can't fly that flag, why can Christians have a flag of a cross, Slayer fans have a flag of Slayer, Doom fans have a flag of Doom, etc? This isn't physical violence or something of that ilk, so it shouldn't be illegal. To have suspiscions of the guy is totally normal and well justified.

Then again I hate seeing Nazi flags, which aren't all that uncommon for bands to have at punk gigs in small towns in Aus. Our old band was metal, but every now and again punk groups would invite us to play at their shows. Maybe the hammer & sicle on the drum kit gave them the wrong idea or something? No idea, but when we got to the place and saw the bands swastika drum set we were taken aback to put it lightly. We just played our set, had 1 beer each and cruised - Didn't wanna stay around there.

Anyway I got way off track. The point is just because I hate something doesn't mean it should be illegal. If it isn't a group planning an attack or it isn't violent or something, the government/the law has no place in it.

[dew]

TheCupboard said:

Way to go, enlightened internet warrior.

Absolutely it represents his religion, I don't see an edict that reprimands him from displaying it. I'm sure that you can find numerous (recent) sources that attribute the the black flag with ISIS but the fact remains that the source of the conflict is is entirely man-made.

Cmon, I'm not that shallow. First of all, I've never questioned his right to display that flag. Your country defends that right with a zealous conviction for quite a long time now and I respect it. Actually, I rather admire the entire total freedom of speech principle, because it comes with a lot of downsides that Europe won't stand and chooses to ban hateful speech and expressions. I don't think the Caliphate flag in particular is illegal anywhere in Europe, but a Nazi flag would be. You can think what you want about that, but don't judge. Your culture is not that superior to give you the right, thank you.

Second of all, I strongly doubt it represents his religion. The traditional colour of Islam is green and the non-green flags tend to run with red. I can't think of any black-themed Islamic flags except for this sick piece that somehow only gets tied to the worst kind of extremists - Al-Qaeda, ISIL, Boko Haram, Somalian pirates, Ansar Dine. It represents jihad and the forced assimilation of the world. The guy can do whatever is legal within your system, but my sympathies towards his values are extremely limited.

[myk]

Panislamism, the Islamic State (IS) included, is the result of the systematic destruction of panarabic movements and initiatives by the US and its allies or subordinates.

US military action against IS is and will be driving fighters toward neighboring countries, so the intensification in the Syrian conflict and of attacks against Kurds aren't a surprise. Back when France entered Mali it was also partly a side effect of the chaos and violence created from the destabilization of Libya. The current conflict in Gaza is tied to all this because Israel is ultimately concerned about an alliance between Hamas and Fatah.

The general bent of US and Western policies and media in respect to IS is like Dr. Frankenstein dealing with his own monster like a pitchfork and torch-wielding villager.

[geekmarine]

The thing is, his values aren't what's being challenged, his right to fly the flag is. If you've got a problem with his values, or what you think the flag represents, that's fine, you're free to voice your opinion. Using the government to strongarm him into taking it down, though, goes against the very foundation of this country. Then again, too many zealots these days don't seem to get that point. They don't really understand why speech can't be barred simply because, say, you personally find it offensive.

[Technician]

Doomkid said:

If he can't fly that flag, why can Christians have a flag of a cross, Slayer fans have a flag of Slayer, Doom fans have a flag of Doom, etc?

If you'd looked closely you'd see no one had a problem with that star and crescent flag, it was people's problem with the flag associated with a terrorist group.

dew said:

Second of all, I strongly doubt it represents his religion. The traditional colour of Islam is green and the non-green flags tend to run with red. I can't think of any black-themed Islamic flags except for this sick piece that somehow only gets tied to the worst kind of extremists - Al-Qaeda, ISIL, Boko Haram, Somalian pirates, Ansar Dine. It represents jihad and the forced assimilation of the world. The guy can do whatever is legal within your system, but my sympathies towards his values are extremely limited.

Black, green and white were flags flown during the Arab expansion. Muhammad flown the "black standard" during his conquest so that's why it's popular with Jihadists.

[dew]

myk said:

Panislamism...

I agree. The entire situation was mostly cooked and served by the West's incessant meddling. And instead of strongly supporting moderate Islamic countries like Morocco, Syria, Indonesia, Egypt or Iran (used to be the best of them!), the West just throws money at the dirty weasels of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Qatar. Oil is more important than world peace after all and the sheiks support the fall of the West by funding the terrorists in silence, not by mostly empty open threats like Russia or Venezuela.

[Nomad]

Is it really much different from hanging a confederate flag?

[Doomkid]

Technician said:

If you'd looked closely you'd see no one had a problem with that star and crescent flag, it was people's problem with the flag associated with a terrorist group.

Aren't all religions technically known terrorist groups though? ;)

[Maes]

Kontra Kommando said:

People have the right to express themselves.

Kontra Kommando said:

But this certainly merits concern from the community.

I never understood how such phrases could coexist in the same sentence. It's akin to saying "You have freedom of speech, provided that it doesn't offend me or otherwise hurt my interests or sensitivities", or worse yet "Sure, express yourself freely but then brace yourself for the consequences". In my book, that is not really "freedom of speech and expression".

More in general, I don't believe that you can have conditional freedom of speed, freedom of expression or democracy. In those casses it should be called something else, like "reasonable tolerance" or "don't ask don't tell", but not full "freedom" or "democracy", because it ain't.

[geekmarine]

It's not really a contradiction - you have freedom of speech, but so does everyone else. You can say whatever the hell you want, but you gotta remember that anyone who disagrees with you has the freedom to loudly declare that you're wrong.

The real point of freedom of speech is that the government can't throw your ass in jail for saying something they don't like, and other people can't use the power of the government to silence you. You just gotta remember that being criticized and being silenced are not the same thing. Someone can't make you take down your flag, but they're free to run a story in the paper about how your flag is a terrorist symbol (assuming, of course, that this is, in fact, true - if not, well then you just committed libel).

But I don't really see the contradiction if other people are allowed to voice their disagreement with you (as long as it's only voicing disagreement, and not making up lies or threatening with physical violence).