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ssv_170379

Happy Birthday, Ukraine!

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Today is 23th birthday (independence day) of my homeland Ukraine, maybe for the first time celebrated and accepted so widely by it's own people.

Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!
Goodness for all involved and empathic.

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Congrats. It's nice to see that the people of Ukraine appreciate Doom so much, they used the logo for their flag. Good luck hiding out against the Ruskies.

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Umm, well, I did not expect such a deep reaction.

What really happened is that today most of people surrounding me has celebrated this day. Not because we're deeply historically skilled here (but yes, many people knows about that events and personalities even here, in Eastern Ukraine), but rather because we're all need some relief during tough times right now, some consolidating idea. And it worked, we've been happier this day. But now It's became obvious to me, that in others people eyes we do not have rights to be proud of our identity, because each of us kind of cursed and we've deserved our doom.

So I apologize to all those offended by my rejoicing. And afterwards I'll stick to Doom-related posts rather than joys of our people.

Requesting moderators to close topic.

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ssv_170379 said:

Umm, well, I did not expect such a deep reaction.

It's Doomworld. People here can get kind of worked up about politics. I was honestly expecting the reaction to be even worse. In any case, I hope you guys make it through these tough times and hopefully retain your independence.

ssv_170379 said:

Requesting moderators to close topic.

Though it's not self evident or documented in the forum FAQ, you can actually do this yourself if you're the topic starter. Though, honestly, it'd be a shame to see this thread closed; I see nothing wrong with its existence. By standards of political 'debate' on Doomworld, this has actually been relatively civil so far. Don't let the negative words of a few discourage you.

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oh wow a Ukrainian. What part are you in? What do you see happening around you? Paint a picture.

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ssv_170379 said:

Umm, well, I did not expect such a deep reaction.

See, Belial is Polish, so hints of Bandera's symbolism will strike a chord. Nothing is black and white though, so happy independence day. May your future be brighter.

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I'm from Zaporozhye (borders with Donetsk). No military action here. Goes mild mobilization. I personally know people departed to the East.

There are also pro-Russian people here, but now this is not as edgy theme as it was in the times of Maydan. I've seen couple of St George ribbons attached to bikes, and there's one person (of 8) in our department (my work is related to 2d-graphics, not politics), who likes Russian policy, but it is all on the level of kitchen talks, we're working fine all together.

Personally I did not voted for President Poroshenko, but many of my surrounding (me too) have a certain credibility towards a new government, because of Yanukovich's decreased popularity during years of his reign (do not voted for him either).

"Glory to Ukraine" and other slogans became very widespread here after winter events. People does not think about Shukhevych or Bandera here, rather glorifies those, who suffered during a last-years collisions, because there were massive Maydans in many cities including ours, which has been suppressed.

As for our own history, personally I do not know yet how to treat those events, because of diametric ideological differences in a different sources http://tinyurl.com/lx2wtpt vs http://tinyurl.com/qdmwjtt . Truth is: the more you go to the east of Ukraine, the less people knows their history. Eastern Ukraine is also historically Russian-speaking, (me too), but everyone here fluently understands Ukrainian as a state language.

For all this years Independence day was like "another day off", but this year many people started to accept this day, at least at a level of wearing national outfits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyshyvanka), waving with Ukrainian flags, hearing music with Ukrainian lyrics (http://sunshadow.com.ua/) and yes, greeting each other with a slogans.

Now Eastern regions only starting to perceive their identity, and there's many to be done to became not just an ex-USSR guys. Also, all this years there was forces, who proclaims that Western Ukrainians do not likes Eastern ones, because of Russian language, like a: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=3Sf9NLMy I have not been there, but my friends who was, said this is not true globally, but in some rare cases and places may became a problem.

So Ukraine is kind of divided by this attribute too, but facing perspective of a breakdown of the country, many of us starting to search for an ethnic roots.

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Thanks for some reassuring words.

Personally I did not oppressed anyone in my country on a language basis. Personally you guys did not invaded anywhere. But bad things are happening unfortunately. This is frustrating.

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So do people over there believe the Russian military is going to invade? Like full scale in the traditional sense.

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Well good luck to you and I hope the fighting didn't affect you directly, seeing how you're just 200km from Donetsk.

I've been to Kiev in April this year and I'd seen my share of red and black Right Sector banners with "Героям слава!" written on them, not to mention the militia guarding Yanukovych's villa in uniforms with matching red and black insignia.

Not a good pick for a national motto.

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imp1979 said:

So do people over there believe the Russian military is going to invade? Like full scale in the traditional sense.

That seems more unlikely with every passing day. Putin's "defending Russian people everywhere" policy got shredded after the rebels pretty much made themselves into international terrorists with the Boeing takedown. Also I cannot even imagine the shitstorm of sanctions, embargos and other sorts of economical hurts that would follow. I mean, Russian people still like to eat.

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imp1979 Yes, our news (today's by the way) consider this themes. As for people, Kremlin logic in not understandable from here, hence we can't predict something for sure.

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While an overt invasion seems unlikely, the covert invasion by mercenaries and little green men continues. There's been fights in Novoazovsk, a city near Mariupol that was never under separatist control.

Kremlin logic is easily understandable: if their agents who masquerade as separatists are defeated, send them reinforcement. If the agents are successful, then push them to expand forward. They might call it a day if they reach Transdniestria, but I wouldn't bet too much on it.

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It's official. Conventional invasion has taken place. About 5000 Russia soldiers with tanks and buk missile systems and armor have entered

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Yeah, this is pretty disgusting. Especially how Putin lies to everyone's face. He knows no one believes his bullshit, but he doesn't even are anymore. Let's cut off their banks completely by banning Russia from SWIFT and stopping the Visa/Mastercard systems.

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dew said:

Yeah, this is pretty disgusting. Especially how Putin lies to everyone's face. He knows no one believes his bullshit, but he doesn't even are anymore.


Pretty much this entire Ukraine affair has been a war fought on the basis of denying the obvious:

USA: We totally don't have agents on the field in Ukraine
Russia: We totally didn't send troops in Crimea
Ukraine: There totally aren't fascists in the new interim government and in the Maidan movement
Maidan movement: our movement is a grassroots one, totally not EU and USA sponsored, it does not have fascists as members, and has not accepted help from foreign consultants and agents.
EU: We are definitively not pursuing any agendas or being US's lackeys here

You just have to choose whose lies you like better ;-)

dew said:

Let's cut off their banks completely by banning Russia from SWIFT and stopping the Visa/Mastercard systems.


No worries, Putin is already implementing ties with Chinese and other alternative banking systems.

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dew said:

no one believes his bullshit

Such things depend on where you live. For example, I'm sure that many Russians actually believe his bullshit. On the other hand, people of the other countries have their own bullshit to believe.

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Frankly, I'd have been happy with just Crimea but it looks like he wants to divide the Ukraine, somewhat, down the middle. I'd argue that the west's sanctions actually escalated the situation. Just like with Afghanistan, the Kremlin has to now justify it's new found economical hardships to it's people with some kind of geopolitical benefit, like reuniting the Russian centric populated parts of the Ukraine with Russia. If the sanctions are hurting Russia as much as I've heard the news boast, Putin might as well commit himself.

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Well, I wouldn't worry about any divisions the Ukraine might suffer: the EU has proven to accept even divided countries with ongoing territorial disputes into its loving "embrace". Hell, it doesn't even care is one of its member countries is partially unrecognized! (Yeah, I'm talking about Cyprus, "Northern Cyprus" and Turkey here).

"BUT MEAS, L0L", I can hear you say, "NOBODY IN THE WEST GIVES A SHIT ANYMORE ABOUT CYPRUS, IT'S OVER MAN GET OVER IT". Which is exactly my point: under the right circumstances, the entire Ukraine story will become another forgotten, frozen conflict, which is better swept under the carpet, and the majority of the world will accept as a fait accompli.

So cheer up, Putin haters: there's a high chance that even a mutilated, grotesque parody-of-itself Ukraine will join the EU in the near future ;-) And any ongoing problems in the East? They can be happily ignored, just like the existence of places like Northern Cyprus and Transistria.

If you're not OK with that, well, then put your money where your mouth is and support your heroes (?) for a free (?) and European (?) Ukraine.

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Maes said:

No worries, Putin is already implementing ties with Chinese and other alternative banking systems.

Like, what? The most optimistic estimates say Russia could get an independent banking system running IN FIVE YEARS. Wake up, the west owns the financial system entirely.

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I had read it would take 2 years, but that's not the point.

The point is that, so far, no country has ever been cut off the banking system entirely. Not even the ISIS terrorists or the Taleban regime of Afghanistan at the peak of "Enduring Freedom", and no communist regime even during the worst McCarthyism. Even in those cases, sanctions were strictly "ad personam".

What bothers me most from this entire story is the emergence of some people who I'd call "Eurohawks", claiming that the EU will pwn Putin with its 4 mln (LOL) army (yeah, we're talking about the same toothless EU of old ladies and bureaucrats that can't do shit for Cyprus and Turkey).

As far as delusions go, this takes the cake, IMO. For some reason, the worst Eurohawks seem to be people from Eastern Europe and the Dutch. Some sound so convinced as to give an arm and a leg if that would help Putin's downfall.

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Maes said:

As far as delusions go, this takes the cake, IMO. For some reason, the worst Eurohawks seem to be people from Eastern Europe and the Dutch. Some sound so convinced as to give an arm and a leg if that would help Putin's downfall.

lol the Dutch? Really? If they wanted to be hawks, they shouldn't have bought a turkey.

European armed forces are laughable. Germany has 109 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, only 8 of which are operational. The United Kingdom spent billions to build the stupidest flagships ever; I really can't get over how stupid the CVF design is, goddamn they are terrible boats. France still has some remnant of a capable force, but between constant budget cuts and the ongoing clusterfucks in Africa, there's nothing to spare for another theater. Then don't get me started on the rest. Belgium no longer has any tank, eastern countries still use soviet-era materiel, and Washington managed to convince like one third of EU countries to commit to the phenomenally retarded F-35 project, which will drain the entirety of the defense budget of these countries for a decade and won't be available for two decades. And when it'll finally be there, it'll be already obsolete because radar technology progresses faster than stealth technology, and it never was really stealthy to begin with. Plus with operating costs of $32K per hour of flight, nobody will be able to afford to fly it anyway. Pilots will only train in simulator.

EU military might is a joke. The EU can deter aggression against itself (France and UK has their own independent nukes; Belgium, Italy and others have US nukes that they are allowed to use in case of emergency) but otherwise, nada, nothing.

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Simply put, the EU as a whole has subscribed to the idea of the "small, modern, flexible army", which translated into "armies" which are only good for bullying 3rd world rebels, the so-called "internal enemy" and failed states, not to start full-scale wars against a conventional (and quite large, by any standard) enemy.

Plus, there's no unified EU army at the official level: it's just a bunch of independent countries which just happen to work together under the rules of extra-EU alliances (UN peacekeeping, NATO "obligations" etc.), rather than under some unified EU command.

I really don't get where the "Eurohawks" draw their bravado from. The very least, they could be nice and tell the rest of us what they are smoking. Must be pretty strong stuff ;-)

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hardcore_gamer said:

Am I a terrible person for almost exploding in laughter after having read this?

Evil incarnate. Hitler would be proud.

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Maes said:

Simply put, the EU as a whole has subscribed to the idea of the "small, modern, flexible army", which translated into "armies" which are only good for bullying 3rd world rebels, the so-called "internal enemy" and failed states, not to start full-scale wars against a conventional (and quite large, by any standard) enemy.

Not even that. Only UK and France maintain some expeditionary capacity. The rest are purely defensive; if they want to intervene outside of national boundaries they have to call US Airlift Command to be their cab.

Maes said:

Plus, there's no unified EU army at the official level: it's just a bunch of independent countries which just happen to work together under the rules of extra-EU alliances (UN peacekeeping, NATO "obligations" etc.), rather than under some unified EU command.

There's actually this but it's not much.

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Gez said:

There's actually this but it's not much.


That seems to fall neatly under the "bullying 3rd world countries and failed states" category. I forgot to add wannabe border police duties such as FRONTEX (not that they are any good at what they are supposed to do....or are they?).

And as for the "internal enemy", there's the infamous EUGENDFOR, for which there are rumours that it's already deployed undercover in "hot spots" within the EU, posing as "special units" of national police forces, and suspected to be involved in crushing assemblies, protests, riots, strikes etc. with less legal problems than the national police.

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