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codeslicer

How Does Doom Compare to Doom II?

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Doom architechture may be an art but how you make that fun to play is most definitely a science. IMO as of late the former is stressed the latter is neglected somewhat.

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I personally don't think so - (slaughter)maps with challenging / clever setups are still coming out... Wait, the major releases of such maps were already a while ago. You might have a point. Still, I do think that modern mappers pay attention to the "scientific" part of creating fun, whenever they make effective traps etc.

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I prefer Doom 1 over Doom 2 because the music is moodier (and more fitting), the textures are more colorful and the places (while still abstract) somehow feel more believable. Yes, Doom 2 has more varied and ambitious level design, but it just lacks something intangible that makes Doom 1 feel more like an "experience" (for lack of a better word) than a game for a game's sake.

I guess it's sort of similar reasoning for why I prefer Thief 1 over Thief 2. Yes, the latter is objectively better, but I find the former subjectively better and it makes enough of a difference for me to like it more than the other for it.

That being said, Doom 2's monster, weapon and powerup additions are awesome. I do like how the PSX version of Doom 1 sprinkles those in. Does anyone else like it or is it blasphemy to have a chaingunner in E1M1?

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I think they're both great. Ling gives great reasons above why my experiences with D2 are slightly more memorable, though. Mapping for D1 is kinda hard with all the restrictions, under the hood, D2 added even more than the average player realizes - Super fast doors and lifts, monster-only teleports and other line types which make mapping much more creative. Like 40oz said, D1 is probably a better starting ground for newbie mappers.

Both games have excellent music. (okay, except maybe map02. What's elevator jazz doing in Doom?!)

Also, "not this thread again!" ;)

EDIT: D2 deathmatch is also much better overall, even when just using IWAD maps.

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I think Doom 1 has more of a survivor-horror feel. The maps seem more spooky and more serious. Doom 2 just seems like it's very fast paced and messy. There's no episodic endings and the maps are all thrown together like they didn't care. I personally would've liked to see more expansions like "Thy Flesh Consumed"; I like the high difficulty of "Thy Flesh Consumed". Doom 2 is great but I prefer Alien Vendetta or Final Doom TNT; some of the best maps IMO are in TNT (with some rare exceptions in Plutonia lol).

Sodaholic said:
That being said, Doom 2's monster, weapon and powerup additions are awesome. I do like how the PSX version of Doom 1 sprinkles those in. Does anyone else like it or is it blasphemy to have a chaingunner in E1M1? [/B]


I liked it!

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Linguica said:

Sorry fraggle all the new Doom 2 monsters are great. They nearly all enhance the gameplay along one or more of three axes:

Yep, I don't really dispute that. In fact, I actually said that they all extend the gameplay in new ways compared to Doom 1. My objection is purely a subjective, personal one: too much of them makes the game less fun and less enjoyable for me.

Great analysis by the way. To go with your theory, I guess it's the "general spatial awareness" side that I dislike. I mentioned in my previous comment how I dislike Plutonia, so I went back and tried playing through Plutonia MAP01 to remind myself what the experience was like.

The main thing I noticed is that I'm confronted with a lot of these kinds of enemies - Revenants, but particularly noticeable is the overabundance of chaingunners. As you noted, with chaingunners, "if you don't take care of them quickly, your health will be severely eroded". A single chaingunner can deal out a lot of damage on his own but if you're dealing with them one at a time it's not too hard to take them out quickly (see eg. Doom II MAP04 where in practice they tend to appear one by one). In Plutonia MAP01 you're quickly confronted with two chaingunners (top of the set of steps), a pattern that often repeats. With a situation like this you can easily be killed by one chaingunner while you're still reloading from having taken out the first.



So when you have multiple chaingunners like this, or when you're confronted by Archviles (flame attack) or Revenants (homing missiles), it's essential to be able to find cover to hide behind. And levels like the ones in Plutonia force you to do this all the time. It's a continual process of hiding and popping out to take shots. Doom II extended the game dynamic by introducing these monsters, and it seems that Plutonia changes it to be focused entirely around this different style of play. In a sense it's almost like a completely different game to Doom 1.

I should clarify that I'm not completely opposed to these kinds of monsters; it's not like I just ragequit any WAD as soon as I see a revenant or archvile. They are an interesting challenge that certainly makes the game more varied. I guess it's just excessive usage of them that drains me, and Plutonia to me is the epitome of that kind of design and gameplay. In the end I'll play what I find fun and what I enjoy; it's more than clear that there are plenty of people who are Plutonia fans and obviously enjoy or prefer this kind of gameplay. It just isn't for me.

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Sodaholic said:

I do like how the PSX version of Doom 1 sprinkles those in. Does anyone else like it or is it blasphemy to have a chaingunner in E1M1?

Heh, stupid surge of idea popped: What happens when you combine Doom 1 maps with Doom 2 monsters? Guess I should try that out. :V

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it's not like the PSX-exclusive encounters completely replaces the bestiary of the Doom levels. they're more like extra things thrown in for variety, like Sodaholic said. the only new enemies i remember being inserted right now are the Chaingunner and hidden PE in map 1, though, aside from the PSX-exclusive levels, which i believe is generally harder and filled with more monsters?

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fraggle said:

it's essential to be able to find cover to hide behind. And levels like the ones in Plutonia force you to do this all the time. It's a continual process of hiding and popping out to take shots.

This is why I've never really been a big Plutonia fan, and always saw TNT as the better of the two. Hell, this is the reason I look back on my older megawads with a degree of disdain..

This stupid ass trend is pretty much the bread & butter of modern FPS.... Zzzz...

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I definitely agree with Linguica's point that the Doom 2 enemies are far and large an improvement on Doom 1's.

Doom 1 has: two hitscanners (which both move slowly, only fire once, then move again), two melee-only enemies, a flying/charging melee enemy, and three fireball enemies (one of which flies). Plus the two boss monsters. There's not a lot of variation here. The baron is basically just a bigger, meatier imp; the caco is just a bigger, meatier imp that can also fly.

Almost all of the Doom II enemies are much more unique. Revenants and Mancubuses have unique attacks that need to be dodged in different ways. The arachnatron shoots a steady stream if it keeps eyesight, as does the chaingunner, making them different from other fireball/hitscanner monsters. The AV and PE are obviously quite unique. As mentioned, the hell knight is the only new 'boring' addition, and it was clearly added because they realized the Baron has too much HP for it's threat value. Which, is what I would say is probably the one problem with D2 monsters - overall, their health is too much, as almost every monster is somewhere between 2-4 SSG/rocket shots.

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Thought it might be cool to make a quick thing that suggests monster counts based on linguica's venn diagram at the top of the page. I got "general space awareness" and "immediate space awareness" the wrong way round in my labels but you get the idea.



Edit: ha, i just noticed the bottom left screenshot is the same as the bottom right. Oh well :0)

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codeslicer said:
I was talkIIIINNNG in general and not just level design.

True, although the overall level design part is arguably the one where there's more space to make comparisons in because in the rest, DOOM II tends to simply add over what DOOM does. That's what makes DOOM II the more popular game in terms of PWAD design. New level design relies on the game minus the original level design.

Some comments in that older thread also add to a more general comparison, though. (It's inevitable that level design will bleed into other aspects of the game and level design depends on these other aspects.)

In my longer post there, at the end I define DOOM as a more "exploratory game" and DOOM II as "the exploitation of its gameplay". This can be seen in the overall product (levels plus everything else) but it's also reflected in parts, such as the monster sets. This difference ends up in how each game (of part of the game, as DOOM and DOOM II are basically two parts of one game) are characterized by the community. DOOM attracts nostalgia and is stronger as a creative groundbase for anything that escapes immediate shooter action, while DOOM II is the chosen field for skilled players and technical enhancement of the game. DOOM is stronger at sustaining and building up the narrative of the game while DOOM II encapsulates its sheer here and now.

Stepping out of immediate playability (the role and difficulty of the monsters in combat) but in line with it, the monster set and texturing in DOOM is also more stylized toward a mix between hell (or dark fantasy) and classic science fiction. In DOOM II, the new monsters tend to have a grittier and weirder aspect, perhaps more mundane yet gross, toward a cyberpunk theme. DOOM seems more epic and timeless, whereas the DOOM II texturing and extended monster set make it more like a contemporary nightmare.

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Doom II to Doom -> Bigger. Badder. But not always better. New soundtrack is ok and very welcome but some levels are way too big (especially the city ones). It's noticeably harder and more challenging. Don't know where to put Evilution but for me, Plutonia is the hardest IWAD. Haven't checked Youtube for solution / help but I needed it sometimes with TNT or Doom 2(especially the secret levels... oh I have forgotten about Doom & Doom 2 books that I have - all is well-known on the Doom Wiki but those were the times when major games got their "hint books". And both of them were translated to Polish. Wow). Doom 2 is, IHMO, a good extension and challenge. But as few people here said, the original episode splitting is much better than Doom 2 one big episode. And Final Doom(s) - just an add-on pack for vanilla Doom 2 (though standalone). I don't know what to say more. So I'm hitting "submit reply" now :P

Edit: and chaingunners, chaingunners everywhere! Team TNT must love 'em!

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Magnusblitz said:

I definitely agree with Linguica's point that the Doom 2 enemies are far and large an improvement on Doom 1's.

Doom 1 has: two hitscanners (which both move slowly, only fire once, then move again)


Tut tut, you've left out the old Spider Mastermind!

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Doom's E1 and E3 had fucking superb architecture and design. Doom II didn't have some of its better levels until halfway through the game, whereas Doom started out with good levels. E2 is a mix bag with more dumb than good, imo. E4 I believe came after D2's release, and you can tell with some of the bigger height variations (Doom was oddly flat in some levels, whereas Doom II had levels with very big open areas and tall, vertical architecture and whatnot. Doom II however improved the bestiary, giving us many staple monsters, and, of course, the SSG. They even had the SS guards as a unique enemy as opposed to a re-skinned chaingunner. As such, modders could easily paint over him for an enemy that strength wise in between a Zombiman and Chaingun Dude.

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As for Doom II levels, I hate the City ones. I feel they're boring. And so big. You're supposed to clean out YOUR city and I live in a small town :)

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RadTang said:

As for Doom II levels, I hate the City ones. I feel they're boring. And so big. You're supposed to clean out YOUR city and I live in a small town :)

Hehe, I don't think that D2 city levels are bigger than a small town. I kind of agree with your point, though - D2 cities are sometimes really unintuitive and demotivating and look/feel weird. Mainly MAP19, then 13 and 15, and even 12, 18 and 20 have their strange parts.

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scifista42 said:

Hehe, I don't think that D2 city levels are bigger than a small town. I kind of agree with your point, though - D2 cities are sometimes really unintuitive and demotivating and look/feel weird. Mainly MAP19, then 13 and 15, and even 12, 18 and 20 have their strange parts.


I don't remember them well (the City levels). One of my favs is 8th - Tricks & Traps. Mainly for that awesomely funny infighting. But ending is pretty lame and quite easy (unlike final maps in Final Doom). The Wolf 3D levels are nice addition though they could remaster them a bit (Doom has way better engine than Wolf 3D). True players and followers of ID would still recognize them.

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Personally I have mixed feelings about the SSG, it's fine for single player but I feel it throws off the balance some for multiplayer. Also doom 1 has better music, level design, and atmosphere IMO, but the difficulty of doom 2 is appealing. I always figured the lack of difficulty in doom 1 could be explained by the fact that wolfenstein was the only other "real" FPS game at the time so the genre was still brand new, but then again I was like 1 at the time so I can't say anything for fact.

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terminus12 said:

Personally I have mixed feelings about the SSG, it's fine for single player but I feel it throws off the balance some for multiplayer. Also doom 1 has better music, level design, and atmosphere IMO, but the difficulty of doom 2 is appealing. I always figured the lack of difficulty in doom 1 could be explained by the fact that wolfenstein was the only other "real" FPS game at the time so the genre was still brand new, but then again I was like 1 at the time so I can't say anything for fact.


On custom maps, it's possible to block SSG to single only (via flagging it so it won't appear on that map on multiplayer). Doom 1 is not too difficult but these extra monsters are really noticeably on UV. There's only a few levels with same monsters quantity - like E2M9. Nice map and quite difficult. 4 barons at once. It only gets worse when you escape through the doors - 10 cacos. If you survive, there's fat reward. The level is small, smaller than E1M1 and very simple in design but it's enjoyable and still nice. Even it's creator thinks that's awesome (Sandy Petersen).

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I see them as one game, because I kind of came into Doom about when Doom II had come out. But I've come to appreciate the descent into Hell that Doom 1 offers. But some of the level design in Doom 2 seems even smarter. Then I'll often think there never needed to be any more enemy variety than there already was in Doom 1, but it's hard to argue with the coolness of some of the added monsters in Doom II. I saw that as more of an expansion pack. Just new levels. I didn't see what all the hoopla was, and didn't like the double barrel much.

I wish they'd collect some of the fan favorite user-made levels for future releases on other platforms (like a Steam pack or on Playstation/Xbox/Wii).

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For someone new to Doom or someone who has not played through either game, you could easily look at them and say there is no difference, same game different levels... But in actuality it's really hard to compare the two, they are two totally different experiences complete with their own atmosphere.

Doom feels very arcade-y. It is flatter, much faster paced, and heavier more adrenaline pounding soundtrack.

Doom II on the other hand, is definitely a bigger, slower, more puzzle oriented game.

They are both GREAT experiences. I like that Doom II takes what made Doom great, and give it more variety. I never really cared for the SSG however, since it really just eats up valuable shotgun ammo, and takes too long to reload. Just my opinion! But I do love all of the extra baddies.

As far as a go-to-game, I find myself playing the original Doom more often BECAUSE of its more lightning fast pace and break-up of episodes.

Perhaps a future mod idea could be shortening some of Doom II's levels (especially the city ones) or making some of them more linear, changing some of the textures to something more colorful, and breaking up the levels into 3 episodes that can be accessed individually from the menu?

If one thing is true though, I have always wanted to see a "true" sequel to Doom II, complete with more enemies, bosses, weapons, level settings, textures, and music.

Also, on a side note, I agree, I do like that the PSX Doom has Doom II baddies sprinkled throughout. This is more inherent when played at the highest difficulty (which is how PSX Doom should be played!) It helps keep you on edge!

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Jeremy said:

I never really cared for the SSG however, since it really just eats up valuable shotgun ammo, and takes too long to reload. Just my opinion!

With triple damage for double the ammo it's actually saving valuable shotgun ammo.

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Belial said:

With triple damage for double the ammo it's actually saving valuable shotgun ammo.


Yes ! Demons (Pinkies) dying from 1 good shot. Instead of 3 normal (it may happen that they die from 2 normal shotgun shots). But SSG is also risky - Imps and former humans / shotguys die from just 1 regular shotgun shot (though you can use SSG to dispatch a bigger group of them). And you may not always want / have time to switch weapons.

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Belial said:

With triple damage for double the ammo it's actually saving valuable shotgun ammo.


I can agree with that in scenarios where you are face to face with a horde of baddies, good for clearing out those notorious monster closets or other tight spaces.

But for run n' gun, definitely not my weapon of choice.

This is what makes Doom such a timeless game, everything is a science, and the game was designed to be very well balanced. A clever Doomer strategically alternates between weapons depending on scenario and amount of expendable ammunition. I just find that I use the SSG about as often as the Rocket Launcher or BFG, special occasions ;-)

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Doom is a much more conceptual, finished game, with more coherent maps, "story" and bosses. Doom 2 has great new monsters and the SSG, but if we are talking about the game itself, Doom is much better.

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The later episode level design for particular maps in Doom seems to be either rushed or simply not as creatively done, however Episode 4 seems to be a bit of an exception maybe because it was released much later and not in a rush.

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