Monster model packs comparison

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

I posted a topic months ago about the appearance of the various DOOM model addon packs that are available. I now decided to screenshot every monster ingame, using both the "revised standard models" and "revised Sitters and Abbs enhanced models", plus a few other models. I used the same camera angle for each standard + enhanced comparison. These images probably aren't really that useful, but I just thought it would be interesting to see how the modelers' interpretations of the sprites differ.

As I said before, however, I prefer the sprites...some of these models are really awful.

DoomGuy (Player)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j41meljxhwgx7fv/Player%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t64qq1j8mpgseoj/Player%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Zombieman
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mertzh6y2b7sp2c/Zombieman%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzz27nwfxasdqyo/Zombieman%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Shotgun Guy
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4h6baqlwvj7f6xn/Shotgun%20Guy%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cr03c6dcyl9wg0/Shotgun%20Guy%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Heavy Weapon Dude
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dlfyo06p4xxurz/Heavy%20Weapon%20Dude%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u6uai65xa4pmh9h/Heavy%20Weapon%20Dude%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Imp
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l89ldnnfluwnhpo/Imp%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2hwrsyhi0871xnu/Imp%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Demon
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ua853kpvuz48c14/Demon%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ieelq0e9997duzz/Demon%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Lost Soul
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0bzs7mwl45ucil/Lost%20Soul%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fqem2dpjgt1wvqv/Lost%20Soul%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Cacodemon
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3gas5s956iwf46/Cacodemon%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jjtm1tcjkf2nvx/Cacodemon%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Hell Knight
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnmwnzb6lm1bav8/Hell%20Knight%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/29s9cqlzo01l89b/Hell%20Knight%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Baron of Hell
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ra956wqvbx2u3ci/Baron%20of%20Hell%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/50qes2tyhrp4wi4/Baron%20of%20Hell%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Arachnotron
https://www.dropbox.com/s/re5h73rrudor7yp/Arachnotron%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/03wzzkrbkjhxe7e/Arachnotron%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Pain Elemental
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ws4x8ojdqljsduq/Pain%20Elemental%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fpa8l04375veumz/Pain%20Elemental%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Revenant
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2c0oh0hcjo2fpl5/Revenant%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3g4wzn6wr61y7e/Revenant%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Mancubus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0km1fk66ztw23f/Mancubus%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/onijx7vloqsplsr/Mancubus%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Arch-Vile
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sdhlo864zpo3h7a/Arch-Vile%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ky08i8pwyqt3ua/Arch-Vile%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Spider Mastermind
https://www.dropbox.com/s/caujbn68gdeu1ww/Spider%20Mastermind%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tduk3svxgdwduze/Spider%20Mastermind%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Cyberdemon
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v60yo8s8f7yahm4/Cyberdemon%20model%20-%20standard.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qz9n1wz09aqmzxs/Cyberdemon%20model%20-%20enhanced.png?dl=0

Some other models...
Demon - https://www.dropbox.com/s/n560ly56ymqorv6/Demon%20model%20-%20DOOM%20Remake.png?dl=0 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdcgiarkdyx7go1/Demon%20model%20-%20Skulltag.png?dl=0
Cacodemon - https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8zu1aqb8bs2r2p/Cacodemon%20model%20-%20Skulltag.png?dl=0
Cyberdemon - https://www.dropbox.com/s/e457wyqk0agsjmi/Cyberdemon%20model%20-%20DOOM%20Remake.png?dl=0

[scifista42]

Enhanced hellspawn usually look better to me. However, enhanced zombies look completely non-Doom, I prefer the standard zombies. I find both standard and enhanced imp similarly acceptable. Both arachnotrons and both SMMs impress me the most of all these models, due to their robotic legs that look better in 3D than as sprites.

Except maybe the spiders, none of these models appeals to me enough so that I wanted to regularly play Doom with 3D models - by far, not. I will always prefer classic Doom with sprites. (and pixelated graphics, too)

[Jaxxoon R]

Dude, where are you getting some of the fuglier models? The second demon looks like Crash Bandicoot. The Hell Nobles look like insects. First Zombiemen cannot even be described.

All I know is where they went.

[BaronOfStuff]

Jaxxoon R said:

--"Let's Play Stalked"--
All I know is where they went.

Exactly what I thought of when I saw the models. The Arch-Vile one in particular.

[TwinBeast]

Maybe some of them are more like those "Doom In Name Only" mapping projects?

The "Enhanced" Hell Knights/Barons look a bit like the Doom64 ones. But that head.. it's too squashed vertically, and they're missing some fingers. The "Enhanced" Cyber got same squashed head problem, and what's with that pointy head?

" " Imps should have bigger eyes like the other, and bigger head. And looks like the imps got some extra fingers. Toenails could be pointier/smaller.

" " Arch-Vile head is also kinda wrong. Would be a good idea to use the MARBFAC2 for some reference on the head/face. The fingers look like sticks. The older model is better even if it's lower poly with lower res texture.

" " Revenant is pretty cool, but could have thicker bones and the hands could have been modelled as fists.

" " Mancubus is also pretty cool.

" " Spiders have nice legs, but the heads are not.


Most of the "Enhanced" models have nice torsos, bad heads and bad fingers. Bad head can really ruin the model, as people have tendency to focus more on heads/faces, genitals, ass, breasts & nipples.

The older models look more like the sprites, and have a more consistent quality per model, although the quality for the whole model pack may be a bit inconsistent. Some models are really old and some new as part of some update process that was never fully completed.

If I play Doom with models, I'll use the older pack.

[PRIMEVAL]

Kudos to those who were able to make and animate the models, noble effort. Unfortunately they're not that appealing to use.

[Reisal]

Enhanced zombies look meh but some of the hellspawn look decent, such as the caco, pain ele, mancubus and spiders.

That third demon model looks atrocious and third cyber looks pretty good.

[fraggle]

Most of those look pretty awful to me. I've never seen a set of models that have been decent enough that I've felt the desire to want to play with them instead of sprites. All of them seem to deviate too much from the original monsters, or don't seem to reproduce the style or feel of the original monsters quite right. It's like there's something missing.

The Doom voxel project did an interesting job of bringing the powerup/item sprites into the third dimension, it made me wonder if there's more of a chance with voxel models than traditional 3D models. I haven't seen any monster voxel models though.

But maybe I've just been playing Doom for long enough now that it just doesn't look right if you try to change these things.

[Clonehunter]

The Humans in the first shots are hilariously fugly. The second ones look okay, but don't seem that Doom-ish. Especially the nonbald Shotgun guy.

[Graf Zahl]

fraggle said:

The Doom voxel project did an interesting job of bringing the powerup/item sprites into the third dimension,

Agreed, this was the first and only attempt that actually succeeded with making 3D-versions of the powerups.

fraggle said:

it made me wonder if there's more of a chance with voxel models than traditional 3D models. I haven't seen any monster voxel models though.

Too much work and not rectangular enough - I doubt it'd look good, and let's not forget that you got up to 29 frames per monster where each frame's voxel needs to match 8 rotations.

fraggle said:

But maybe I've just been playing Doom for long enough now that it just doesn't look right if you try to change these things.

Same here. I have to admit that I still haven't seen a single graphics enhancement mod that looked good.

The voxels are an exception because they didn't even try touching the actual resolution.

[Maes]

The problem with enhanced monster-anything is the amount of work required. Whether it's hi-res sprites, 3D models or voxels, all of them require quite a lot of work to get aesthetically pleasing, and, most importantly, to animate.

In the 7 years I've been on DW I've seen:

• At least 4 different "hi-res" 2D sprite projects. One of them wasn't even hi-res, as it was more of a true-color sprite recoloring. Most of them were done simply by using resizing filters on the original sprites, only one actually had redrawing. None of them went beyond the stage of producing a couple of demo poses for a monster or two, and the end result was inferior even to the worst of 3D models. Only the "true-color" project was a complete set, but that one was broken and wrong for its own reasons.
  
• Several 3D projects. Some are complete and in actual use, like the ones in jDoom or Risen3D. Others, like Niuhaka's Doom Ascension, look superior to anything that has appeared up to date but it's not been demonstrated to be functional, to the best of my knowledge. Some other still are parts of "Doom remake" projects, which usually only have one or two functional monsters.
  
• A single attempt to produce voxel monsters from 2D sprite sillhouettes, which worked quite satisfactorily on a Pinky metal statuette, but it's unknown how well it would perform with the actual Doom sprites and their inconsistent orientation and animation.
  

In anything, all of these methods have in common the fact that producing animated monsters is quite a lot of work, no less than 720+ odd frames/poses to work on, with the further complication of smooth animation/extra rotations, if one is so inclined.

Also, methods that rely on automatic rescaling/enhancement or picture capture require significant post-processing by hand, which makes working from scratch on models/drawings almost preferable.

[Linguica]

The progression of reactions to Doom graphical enhancements over the years is kind of funny. I remember way back in the day when GLDoom and Doom Legacy and jDoom were being developed and everyone was pumped for graphical enhancements. Nowadays I find the "filtered" look extremely gross and I would prefer big clear pixels any day.

[Blastfrog]

I firmly believe that it just hasn't been done right yet, not that it can't. The problem with these is that they're both rather amateurish and also take too many liberties. It'd probably be difficult to get models that look "just right", but I don't doubt that it's impossible.

If you use the sprites (as many angles and frames available) as reference images and tirelessly slave away at making them look as close as possible (probably using true perspective rather than orthogonal to tweak vertices), they'd probably look pretty good.

Lighting and texturing, of course, is another matter. I think the best solution would be to make ultra-highpoly models and bake them down into normal maps, and then have the engine somehow light them. Perhaps try to emulate the lighting conditions that the original clay models were done in, projecting the light from the player's perspective rather than relative to the environment (lights and camera position did not change, id just rotated the models on a turn table).

Honestly, most (if not all) of the monsters were models to begin with. It is not an impossible task to faithfully reproduce them in a way that would look good in-game and also keep true to the original appearance.

[DaniJ]

Agreed. If you want to see some quality 3D models that retain the spirit of the original sprites then I'd suggest checking out veirdo's work for Hexen. One should note that veirdo is using the exact same feature set as the above models, so clearly, its more a matter of artistic ability and time.

I'm very interested to see what people can do with a more modern 3D model renderer (MD5, skeletal animation, normal mapping, etc.).

[RUSH]

Boy am I glad the original Doom games weren't 3D

[fraggle]

Linguica said:

The progression of reactions to Doom graphical enhancements over the years is kind of funny. I remember way back in the day when GLDoom and Doom Legacy and jDoom were being developed and everyone was pumped for graphical enhancements. Nowadays I find the "filtered" look extremely gross and I would prefer big clear pixels any day.

I remember this as well. Legacy was amazing when it first came out; just having a Quake-style console and menus was somehow incredible. Everyone was so stoked for the GL ports as well.

DaniJ said:

Agreed. If you want to see some quality 3D models that retain the spirit of the original sprites then I'd suggest checking out veirdo's work for Hexen. One should note that veirdo is using the exact same feature set as the above models, so clearly, its more a matter of artistic ability and time.

Nice. These are really well done. I think Sodaholic is maybe right, that we just haven't seen this kind of thing done well yet. But it obviously requires a huge amount of careful effort and attention to detail to do right.

[Koko Ricky]

The reason high resolution sprites have not worked out is because you would need a team of experienced pixel artists and sculptors, which is unlikely in a mod community setting. As for 3D models, not only does the amateur nature of modding get in the way, but Doom's characters are much more complicated than Mario or Sonic, so the translation to 3D has to be handled with more subtlety. Additionally, Doom's reliance on purely sector-based lighting means that models will look flat unless a light emitting object is near them. It's wonderful that there have been such genuine attempts at models, but ultimately they're awkward and overly cartoonish.

[Stealth Frag]

That's one of reasons why my work (for example here: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/fan-fics-fan-pics/69471-model-of-imp/ )go so slow. I'm trying to recreate Doom textures and characters as close to original as possible, but thats much of work for one man.

[Vermil]

DaniJ said:

Agreed. If you want to see some quality 3D models that retain the spirit of the original sprites then I'd suggest checking out veirdo's work for Hexen. One should note that veirdo is using the exact same feature set as the above models, so clearly, its more a matter of artistic ability and time.

I'm very interested to see what people can do with a more modern 3D model renderer (MD5, skeletal animation, normal mapping, etc.).

Veirdo's models are very impressive. But monster models (certinally until the near future anyway, the mentioned modern mode renderer will change things) will suffer from issues that Veirdo's weapon models and other largely unanimated mobjs won't (i.e Veirdo hasn't done a monster yet).

For now, with a weapon model, you have the advantage of a generally unanimated, always viewed from the same angle etc mobj. With a bad guy, you've got to deal with it potentially jumping from X to Y state at any moment.

Basically, the monster monsters are the hardest IMO.

[TheUltimateDoomer666]

There are many more weapon models than monster models available for DOOM, since they're generally quicker to make and animate I would assume. There are the ones from the jDOOM resource pack, which have been occasionally edited and updated. Then there are the Risen3D addons which have different weapon models. The packs for Vavoom and Skulltag also each have different models of the weapons.

The Vavoom ones are the worst in my opinion.

Spoiler

Spoiler

[mouldy]

Worth remembering that the best 3d models in the world will look shit if they are animated badly. In most of the 3d doom stuff I've seen its the animation that really lets them down.

[Da Werecat]

GoatLord said:

Additionally, Doom's reliance on purely sector-based lighting means that models will look flat unless a light emitting object is near them.

Models don't need complex engine-side lighting to look good. For example, early Quake games only have some fake Gouraud shading, but it doesn't matter as long as your skins are adequate.

[Maes]

TheUltimateDoomer666 said:

Vavoom "shotgun"

LMAO, that surely redefines "trench broom".

[VGA]

Even if a model is good, it will look crap when animated.

Best approach is something like Smooth Doom. Now if only I could use voxel items with that...

[NiuHaka]

VGA said:

Even if a model is good, it will look crap when animated poorly.

There I fixed that for you. You're welcome.