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vdgg

Built demos cheat sheet

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Will be posting some useful(?) data.

Weapon characteristics below:

Weapon       Int1   Int2   Int3   FW=tic#1

Fist          17     -      22     #5 = punch
Chainsaw       4     -      -      #4 = activate
Pistol        14     -      19     #5 = fire
Shotgun       37     -      44     #4 = fire
SSG           51     57     62     #4 = fire
Chaingun       4     -      -      #1 = (possbl instant hit)
Rocket L      20     -      -      #9 = release rocket
Plasma         3     -      25     #1 = fire
BFG9000       40     -      61     #31 = release; 13 after hit = tracers
Int1 is the lowest possible interval between shots. In case of pistol,SG,SSG,Plasma and BFG this is normally achieved during play by holding the fire button. In a built demo it is easier to know these numbers and only apply "FW" every x tics (like every 14 tics for the pistol) and the effect is the same.
Thus,
01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
FW -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- FW --
is the same as
FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW FW
If the weapon is not fired by holding the fire button, there is a pause period: a shotgun can't be fired every 38,39,40... tics. This second lowest value is under Int3 column. Note the big difference between Int1 and Int3 in case of a plasma. It is often more efficient to keep firing and missing shots than to stop firing and start again.

Int2 is only applicable to SSG. For some reason, it can be fired every 57 tics, even though it can't every 56 or 58 tics.

Fist,Pistol,SG,SSG and chaingun are hitscans: in the very tic the weapon is fired/punch delivered, if a monster is hit it receives the damage at the same tic. The chainsaw can only be activated and damage can be dealt on tics 4,8,12,16,20,24... For example
1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007
 --   --   --   FW   FW   FW   FW   FW ...
Trying to activate the chainsaw on tic 1003 has the same effect as on tic 1004. On tic 1005,1006,1007 the same as on tic 1008, and so on.

The chaingun fires two bullets, so it can be argued that Int1=8 with first bullet fired on tic#1 and second on tic#5.

Will continue with weapon damage and monster attacking patterns.

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Just a heads-up because nobody replied. I'm interested in making TAS runs but not in the (very) near future. Probably when I get a lot of time and/or when I get older and can't make good speed runs anymore (well, not that it was that great to begin with). So this is the kind of stuff that I'd need. I hope that somebody will one day make a good manual/tutorial for TAS containing info such as this.

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Oops, it's been a year. Also, there's a small correction to the post above ("Fist" row).

Now, let's take a look into the famous DOOM Weapon Damage Information page by George Bell. It has been quoted quite often on these forums, also by myself, but contains small inaccuracies.

George Bell:

                  Cont              Damage
                  fire       Min   Max   Mean HP/
                  rate                        sec

Fist              120          2    20   11    22
Pistol            150          5    15   10    25
Shotgun            58         35   105   70    68
Chaingun          530          5    15   10    88
Chainsaw          480          2    20   11    88
Super Shotgun      42        105   315  210   147
Rocket vs Cyb     106         20   160   90   159
Berserk           120         20   200  110   220
Plasma            700          5    40   22,5 263
Rocket            106        148   288  218   385
BFG 9000           56       2060  4200 3100  2900

Correction:

Fist              124          2    20   11    23
Pistol            150          5    15   10    25
Shotgun            57         45   100   72,5  69
Chaingun          525          5    15   10    87,5
Chainsaw          525          2    20   11    96
Super Shotgun      41        170   245  207,5 142
Rocket vs Cyb     105         20   160   90   157,5
Berserk           124         20   200  110   227
Plasma            700          5    40   22,5 262,5
Rocket            105        148   288  218   385
BFG 9000           52,5       ?     ?    ?     ?
The first column is calculated as follows: 2100 / Int1 from the post above.
The minimum and maximum damage by George are mostly correct, except:
Shotgun and Super Shotgun minimum and maximum are much closer to the mean (source).
No idea about the BFG. I skipped it entirely, I find it sufficient for myself to know that it's way more powerful than any other weapon. The mean damage seems to be lower than 3000 (famous BFG vs. Spider Mastermind), but it really is irrelevant. You can kill 2 cybers with 3 shots at close with careful damage manipulation ALWAYS. For big groups of monsters you just need to observe the damage (-trace_givendamage) and number of kills (kills HUD) and rebuild the BFG shot until you're satisfied with the result.

OK, what we have above is the list of weapons in order of damage dealt. For us, humans, berserk is less efficient than that: you need to have sufficient health/be invulnerable if you want to fight with "continuous fire". SSG is often chosen instead by experienced Max players.

When we take damage manipulation into account, this will look very different:
                  Fire                 Manipulated
                  rate                 Mean   HP/sec

Fist               91                    18    27
Pistol            105                    15    26
Shotgun            57                    85    81
Chaingun          467                    12,5  97,5
Chainsaw          394                    16   105
Super Shotgun      41                   220   150
Rocket vs Cyb      95                   150   237,5
Berserk            91                   180   270
Plasma            700                    24   280
Rocket             95                   278   440
  • For fist, I assumed we always roll 16,18,20 HP will equal probability, at a cost of more slow punching (every 23 tics).
  • For pistol I assumed the rate of every 20 tics and always forcing RNG to deal 15 HP.
  • Shotgun and SSG: I set arbitrary manipulable damage of 85 and 220 HP, respectively, while maintaining continuous fire. An alternative would be to sacrifice continuous fire in order to get maximized damage. It's not worth it, for SSG let's say a shot every 63 tics, damage 235 HP, HP/sec would be only 129,5.
  • Chaingun: impossible to get 15 HP every time, but a mix of 10-15 HP with two shots every 9 tics is very possible. This makes the chaingun a monster weapon, much faster than the shotgun, only 1/3 slower than SSG! (these weapons are less prone to damage manipulation).
  • I really haven't used the chainsaw that much, it's probably difficult to get high damage... But doesn't take time to "reload". Let's say we get 16 HP on average, but we stop sawing every 3 opportunities out of four. This way we get HP/sec = 105, higher than normal.
  • For rockets I sacrificed 2 tics (1 shot every 22 tics) to get a consistent high damage output of 150 HP.
  • Plasma almost can't be manipulated: you have to keep continuous fire, so you may make an initial delay of 1,2,3,4... tics and see if you roll higher values, especially at the beginning, if you're about to use many cells. I slightly increased the mean damage from 22,5 to 24.
So in the end: except fist being slightly faster than pistol, the order remains unchanged. However, the differences in power are significant. Notice how close berserk is now to plasma.

This is just a draft, but it shows which weapons get much more efficient in TAS: rockets, berserk/fist, chaingun. Also BFG, not shown in the table. The consistent 700-800 HP from the plasma ball is another handicap.

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Optimizing 'Chaingun damage' sounds so crazy. I never used XDRE before but interesting to hear.
For example Hell Knight is completely blocked my way. I have two guns: Chaingun and Super Shotgun.
Aaaaand how much it can saved time if i use Chaingun and what a difference in time between?

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Even when shooting 15 damage pellets with the chaingun, SSG is 0.8 seconds faster against a hell knight.

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This seems like a good enough thread for me to ask this question. I understand RNG manipulation can take some time, especially the longer a run is, but are 200 damage Berserk punches that difficult to manipulate? Cacos, in theory, can be downed in 2 punches and Barons in 5 (I think), but in many TAS runs there are often a lot more punches thrown than that. I can see getting 5 max punches on a Baron being a massive headache, if it's even possible, but 2 on Cacos is something I thought I would see more frequently yet many runs settle for 3 punch Cacos. Of course, having never attempted a TAS there may be something fairly obvious to experienced TASers that I'm missing, but I have often wondered this.

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degree23 said:

but are 200 damage Berserk punches that difficult to manipulate?

Not difficult, just annoying. If you never tried i can describe this process.
For example Doom2 Map22 Tyson. You use command like '-trace_thingshealth' to see how many health it has (baron) and trying kill him from 5 punches.
Hit once: it got 20 damage. Wonderful. Use new segment and try again. Hit. 100. aaaarrrr. New segment. 160... then 60 then 100 then 20 then 40 then 160 and maybe after 20 new segments you will get 200 damage.
It's a stupid random. On this random you can spend whole day and more. I guess this why not everywhere such super optimization. More easy kill by RL from 4 shots.

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Made my previous post more readable and added numbers for the chainsaw.

Regarding the hell knight blocking. If possible, lure him out :) If not possible, it is a non-brainer, but let's calculate the difference. We get:
SSG - fire on tic #4, #55, #106. Dead after 105 tics + you have to wait a couple more tics until the hell knight corpse stops blocking you
Chaingun - following my model, every 9 tics the HK gets 25 HP damage. You will need around 20 rounds of double shots, 9*20 = 180 tics. Much slower.

For caco in 2 punches, I got it easier than before in my last demo. You know, you have to get that 200 HP punch first. If you get it, it's quite easy. For a baron, 6 punches is already quite a feat, for example 6*160 HP is not enough to kill it. You need a bunch of 180's or 200's. I never bothered with 200,200,200,200,200.

As a side-note, j4rio managed to kill a mancubus with 3 punches non-assisted, which should happen once every 1000 times... In a Vile Flesh MAP14 demo if I remember.

Now, I'll post duration of some events, this post will be modified.

  • Player teleportation: On tic #1 the player is frozen, can shoot but can't move. On tic #20 the player gets released.

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vdgg said:

  • Player teleportation: On tic #1 the player is frozen, can shoot but can't move. On tic #20 the player gets released.

I got some info about it. If you get hit in frozen condition - you will be released immediately.
That thing i noticed when worked on MM2 D2ALL in MAP04. Chaingunner attacked me in teleport moment and after hit i had ability to move.
In extreme case you can launch rocket in teleport destination and there you will not stuck + got some speed from splash damage if exist such opportunity. //it's just another crazy idea

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This "unstuck" trick is a really common thing, every experienced TASer had used it. In my plutonia run, there are two unstuck tricks in a row on map27.
P.S: Every type of damage, including damaging floors, will give you ability to move.

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Please don't pollute an info dump thread with pointless banter and obvious statements.

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