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MidnightMage

Was the Icon of Sin a cop out boss?

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Zulk-RS said:

Personally, I always dreamed a Doom-II boss to be:

A fast moving grounded hellspawn (like the Archvile) that has a modified version of one attack from every in-game monster with high health

This part sounds good to me, that's how I'd like to see the final boss, too. (Not another overpowered weapon after BFG, though.)

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Well, it surely wasn't a usual texture. It was much bigger than usual and it even had a hot spot that would shoot spawners. I genuinely thought it was a unique level design feature. It would even take damage from that hot spot and finally spawn explosions.

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I think DOOM 2 needed another boss creature besides the Icon of Sin. Cyberdemon for episode 2, and Spider for 3.

In DOOM 2 we have spider and cyber but they never work as real bosess. I think a new monster at the end (or near the end) of the city part, perhaps presented in 2 or 3 units, and then used again once (in one unit) in the middle of the Hell part. This would satisfy these who wanted a big monster to fight in the good old way, yet without making an OP creature.

And of course I think Final DOOM deserved a couple new monsters. It'd be great to have more official monsters in vanilla DOOM. Even today I'd pay for a proper DOOM 3 in vanilla engine.

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I don't think there could be a worse boss than IOS. Think about it, what could be worse than a hole in a wall and raising-lowering a platform to get a shot in, because of no freelook/autoaim.

Crap. Exactly crap.

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Vegeta said:

I think DOOM 2 needed another boss creature besides the Icon of Sin. Cyberdemon for episode 2, and Spider for 3.


Technically, the Mancubus and Arachnotron were boss enemies, if you consider their death is required to progress.

But yes, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've always been surprised Doom2 didn't have more 666/667 tag stuff. And again I'll say the Cyber Demon on Map29, or maybe the Arch Vile on Map11 etc etc

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For me the Arachnotrons, Mancubus, and Archvile worked in the same way as barons in DOOM. Icon of sin worked as Spidermastermind, and we needed a middle boss. But not one that appears just once, something that reapeared again in the middle of the hell part or in a secret map.

The cyber in map29 would have worked better if it had a 666 tag on the exit.
Some of the spiders and cybers that appear in multiplayer only needed to be in single. Specially the cyber in map13 in reference of the DOOM 2 box art.

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I don't think it was a cop out solution. I genuinely think id Software wanted to try something new and unusual. After all, they could have gone with a typical high-hp-high-damage boss as they had up until Doom 2.

I agree with Fraggle though, that making the limitation of the engine (the inability to aim vertically) the highlight of the "puzzle" wasn't the smartest thing to do.

I remember a review of Doom 2 in a Polish gaming magazine. The reviewer wrote that "the last level can't be beaten if you use cheat codes". I assume he didn't bother with beating the whole game and warped to the final level instead. Then, he probably jumped on the platform and thought that it going too high was some sort of "penalty" for cheating. That's how illogical it seemed.

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Patrol1985 said:

I don't think it was a cop out solution. I genuinely think id Software wanted to try something new and unusual. After all, they could have gone with a typical high-hp-high-damage boss as they had up until Doom 2.

They avoided all the sprite work, new sounds etc.

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The lack of new high level foes in Doom2 (i.e they all have less health than a Barron) along with a common weapon capable of killing quickly (as opposed to the rarer rockets and cells for the BFG9000), was probably deliberate.

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I always hated it. I could never reach the platform even if I hit the button from as far away as possible and ran backwards straight towards the lift. And then when I noclip'd up onto the platform, all the one million billion random monsters would hit me with their projectiles and I would fall off.

It's not like I could really dodge them, or take out the monsters first either.

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I personally think that he would have been better as a midboss because the atmosphere you get is sort of unsettling sort of like a climatic scene is coming on its way. But since it was the final boss, it didn't do a good job.

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VGA said:

They avoided all the sprite work, new sounds etc.


Considering all the hard work they put into Doom 2 - including sprite work and sounds for quite a significant number of new monsters - I doubt it was a matter of suddenly getting lazy.

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When I first time entered Icon of sin room I was waiting some towering enemy that would walk/crawl, then I noticed the wall spawning demons and realised this was the end boss. At first I thought it was lame but later grew to like it.

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So it seems that the majority of people are not cool with Icon of Sin bosses being used in original megawads, yet we all know, with grim inevitability, that every single megawad released from now until the end of Doom will still have the obligatory IoS battle which most of us are just going to skip.

Tl;dr - for the majority of us, a megawad ends on map 29. Map 30 is just something we look around with -idclip and -iddqd with no intention of ever playing it or visiting it again.

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I never like the Icon of Sin. I found it annoying way back when and I never completed the level until years later.

MajorRawne said:

So it seems that the majority of people are not cool with Icon of Sin bosses being used in original megawads, yet we all know, with grim inevitability, that every single megawad released from now until the end of Doom will still have the obligatory IoS battle which most of us are just going to skip.


That made me think what if I can get it to just shoot out viles....

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Jaxxoon R said:

I always hated it. I could never reach the platform even if I hit the button from as far away as possible and ran backwards straight towards the lift.


You do realise that you're supposed to hit the switch, wait for the platform to raise and then lower it like a normal lift, right?

I'm not trying to be a smartarse or anything, sorry if it seems that way, heh.

---------------------
Anyway, I personally never understood, not even after reading all these posts, all the hate against the Baphomet (yes, I am one of those people who insist that Icon of Sin is just the level name).
I mean, I sadly found out about the Baphomet before fighting it
myself, :( so I didn't get that thrill most people get from facing off against a mysterious boss for the first time.

But I've always thought it was pretty nifty and pretty damn cool; it allows for the boss to be not a sprite, but as big as the renderer allows - by making the boss (in a way) the level itself, it suddenly opens up a lot more doors.

I dunno, I just thought it was cool seeing a massive, looming thing in front of you, murmuring satanic echoes. I also... and please don't hurt me... thought the method of killing it was pretty neat.

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I also don't understand all the wall texture hate. A lot of things in old games looked flatter than they should.

Exploiting the game's limited controls in an annoying way, on the other hand...

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I always thought it was pretty cool, but the random texturing ruined the map's look. Alien Vendetta's Point Dreadful is a classic IoS done right; that thing feels threatening and utterly evil. The music, looks, and the edited sound file make a wonderful atmosphere.

I do agree that the concept gets old at times. I love Perdition's Gate and Hell to Pay's IoS "fights", which both play out as "escape a rapidly filling facility before the place blows up" maps.

TNT Revilution's finale is my attempt to do something new with the IoS concept, so I hope it pleases at least some people. Everyone so far that knows the concept has generally said "holy fucking shit!" so I'm probably on the right path. The whole thing is doomed if we cant get some good custom graphics for it though. Probably what worries me most about the whole project.

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I played both the original Doom and Doom II back before the days of Youtube and fast internet, so I got the pleasure of facing off all of the bosses blind. That said, I wasn't horribly disappointed with IoS. It wasn't exactly what I was expecting, and I think it could have been done better, but that didn't make it bad or un-enjoyable for me.

The music was fitting and eerie, and coming through the teleporter to see an object that filled most of the screen was pretty cool. Firing a rocket into the hole was a satisfying feeling for me too. I think if anything, I was just bothered that there was NO animation. I think they could have at least animated the eyes, or given the map more height and have a texture of his body chained up or something, and then have the "wall" lower down when he dies, as though he is falling.

Ragnor said:

The whole thing is doomed if we cant get some good custom graphics for it though. Probably what worries me most about the whole project.


There very talented folk here in the forums, as there has been for years, but if you have yet to find an artist to come up with a design, get a hold of me (email or social media would be best since I don't frequent the forums nearly as much as I did 14 years ago), I would love to help. You can see some of my artwork at jeremysart.com for examples of what I am capable of.

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Also there have been several Baphomet custom texture threads.

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The best part about the final boss is that when you win, the kill percentage goes way overboard, as if "its thrashing limbs are devastating untold miles of hell's surface". I think it's much more satisfying than the anticlimactic cast finale which comes shortly after. That's just a one-time-only joke and unfortunately very little customizable in megawads. In fact, the real cop-out of Doom 2 is the cast finale, compared to the Doom 1 non-shareware episode endings.

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printz said:
In fact, the real cop-out of Doom 2 is the cast finale, compared to the Doom 1 non-shareware episode endings.


I suppose it would have been nice to have the intermission screens like Doom 1 had instead of a generic texture, they could have showed the Doom marine battered and bruised emerging from a pit in the ground, while star-ships descended back down to the city in the background.. and THEN the cast finale.

It would be interesting to see a collaborative effort sans "Doom II: Enhanced", with minor modification "correcting" some of the things most Doom fans dislike about Doom II, ie: split it into three episodes accessible from the main menu, reduce size of/ redesign some of the city levels, add intermission artwork based on the unfolding plot, more interesting/ satisfying final stage. ... replace midi for map02.. ..etc.

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Avoozl said:

And there's been many misconceptions of it being a Baphomet.


The name 'Baphomet' comes from Plutonia's full manual story: http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/2290/manuals/manual_en.pdf?t=1405615428

For reference the Plutonia story on the Doom Wiki is abridged and doesn't include the reference: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/The_Plutonia_Experiment

Plutonia's intro story refers to an unknown bad guy called the 'Baphomet' and compares it to and separates it from the Spider Demon/Mastermind (which was Doom1's boss).

Plutonia manual story: While the Spider Mastermind and Baphomet seemed to no longer threaten, who knew what else lay Outside? Waiting. Watching. Preparing.


Another part of Plutonia's story also mentions the Cyberdemon by name:

Plutonia manual story: A cyberdemon, halfway through, was snipped in two when the Gate closed.

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My opinion is that there's the germ of a good idea in there, but the execution sucks.

Countless modders have proven that you can achieve breathtaking things through creative use of Doom's 2.5D geometry and two-sided lines. If you said to Scuba Steve or the Batman Doom guys, "make a level where a huge demon head has crashed through a wall and is spitting monsters at the player", I'm confident that they could build something way more impressive and real-seeming than the Icon of Sin.

In fact, that would be a fun idea for an editing competition: Imagine you're an Id employee in 1994 and you've been assigned to create an end level for Doom 2 featuring a giant demon. What would you come up with? The winner being the most impressive and imaginative execution of the idea.

Edit: Typos.

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fraggle said:It's almost like the game is attempting a form of self parody, making fun of its own self-imposed limitations.[/B]

That's a good analysis, fraggle. For me it definitely was a big let down that the final boss was just a wall texture. Also, the final room just being a giant, square room, too, wasn't terribly exciting. I also always thought final levels should take place in fiery/hellish scenes, not giant, dark, slimy rooms.

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