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esselfortium

Back to Saturn X Episode 2 is out of beta! (v1.0.1 Aug 13, 2020)

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I don't think it's fair to bash a midi because it "sounds too much like Heretic" or "not enough like DooM" without taking into consideration that this project consists of gothic maps including some that are closer to Heretic's art style than to DooM's art style, and others that are just plain far from DooM's artstyle. These are ofcourse not your typical DooM midis, but then again this isn't your typical DooM mapset and it would be a pity to not use a soundtrack that attempts to capitalize and reinforce the change of theme. There are plenty of normal DooM mapsets out there with standard soundtracks, go play those.

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I'm not bashing it for being too much like Heretic, I only noted that one map's music does indeed sound a lot like Heretic and that it wouldn't be a problem if the level felt like Heretic or in another way appropriate as well.
My problem is precisely that I'm not feeling the theme of either the maps or the music. It just feels like "cool imagery" and "cool music" - neither gives me any mood or evokes any emotion, so no immersion at all. That's the result which troubles me in this.


Also, since I edited that into the last post after the new page appeared,

Antroid said:

Edit: I just realized what music these have been reminding me of somehow, even though most aren't that similar.
http://vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/snes/BL_st3_dragons.mid
http://vgmusic.com/music/console/nintendo/snes/JILostSexyWizard.mid
I love those tracks on their own, and they are from a game... Super Tetris 3. They fit awesomely in Super Tetris 3. I would hate to have them playing as background music for an FPS.

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Did you know that associations between music and not-music-things like emotion are entirely suggestions thrust upon you by other people? Like if you think the William Tell Overture is the "correct music for experiencing a tornado" then that is because Walt Disney gave you this association, and you haven't used your own brain at all.

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i don't agree with BTSX EP2's music being similar to the tracks you've linked to. i've finished the whole thing so far now, and i can't think of any instances where the music is like those examples, i.e. incredibly noisy, super-fast, and very happy/energetic in sound. i do agree with that such arcade-y music would be a terrible fit in Doom, though.

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Antroid said:

Doom's gameplay is not what makes me play it

I think we're done here. You haven't moved one inch closer to explaining to us what's actually wrong and you only created a huge wall of text that explores your vague feelings. And you admitted you don't even like playing Doom. This has been an utterly useless exercise in "Doom philosophy" and shitposting is shitposting even when you apologize for it. This-

emotional image of Doom or Doom 2 as a game

-is pretentiousness cranked to 11.

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Eris Falling said:

I can only conclude that you guys need to ditch the E3 soundtrack and fill every map with D_E1M1.

you mean D_RUNNIN.

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Doomhuntress said:

i don't agree with BTSX EP2's music being similar to the tracks you've linked to. i've finished the whole thing so far now, and i can't think of any instances where the music is like those examples, i.e. incredibly noisy, super-fast, and very happy/energetic in sound. i do agree with that such arcade-y music would be a terrible fit in Doom, though.

The ones I linked may be faster than the ones from btsx ep2, and I suppose there might not be much similarity in the end, but the ep2 music is exactly like these tracks for me in the important matter: it feels incredibly unfitting. If you take note of the parts and aspects of the early tracks that I mentioned putting me off, you can probably see the pattern there. I just can't put it into words because I don't know enough words.
Also those tracks evoke kind of the same retro-fantasy feel that ep2 sort of does for me.

dew said:

I think we're done here.

If you don't understand anything I say, why post about it? Heck, why pay attention to any of it? Just skip the wall of text and pretend there's nothing going on in the thread instead of hallucinating ("pretentiousness" and whatnot). stewboy asked me about the music and I tried to elaborate to the best of my ability. You're getting way too defensive in an exchange that doesn't even concern you.

The fact that doom gameplay alone isn't able to pull me in when all other aspects of the maps are not my cup of tea isn't "not liking playing doom" by the way.

Here are examples of my favorite Doom maps/wads that I think have fantastic atmosphere and I just love all around:
-Deus Vult the first (mainly map02)
-the Cheogsh series
-Unloved
-Doxylamine Overdose, Sonar, 5till L1 by Lainos
-A.L.T.
-the "the way id did" wads
-most of Alien Vendetta

Just so nobody thinkgs I don't like anything or don't like anything that strays in any way from the original Dooms.

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Antroid said:

The ones I linked may be faster than the ones from btsx ep2, and I suppose there might not be much similarity in the end, but the ep2 music is exactly like these tracks for me in the important matter: it feels incredibly unfitting. If you take note of the parts and aspects of the early tracks that I mentioned putting me off, you can probably see the pattern there. I just can't put it into words because I don't know enough words.
Also those tracks evoke kind of the same retro-fantasy feel that ep2 sort of does for me.

i disagree. the tracks you posted definitely evoke a feeling of "bright, shiny arcade-cabinets in a dark, sweaty room", whereas the ones in BTSX EP2 feels like exploring an alien world, full of deadly dangers that wants to kill you, and in other places, like an adventure of sorts. some of the later tracks (and hell, even as early as map 4 here) evoke this feeling of melancholy, while others make you want to kick ass, while still holding a distinct daunting feel to it.

i think you're comparing apples with oranges here, taking tracks from an arcade game that only fits with the limited addiction of what the game provides. sure, Doom is an arcadey game too, in terms of flow and level construction, but it's not restricted to a single screen, and can encompass far more different moods because it's such a simple FPS game.

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Doomhuntress said:

i disagree. the tracks you posted definitely evoke a feeling of "bright, shiny arcade-cabinets in a dark, sweaty room", whereas the ones in BTSX EP2 feels like exploring an alien world, full of deadly dangers that wants to kill you, and in other places, like an adventure of sorts.

See, for me it's pretty much the exact opposite. The "tetris" tracks, while too fast to work for an FPS, or, say, RPG or something, have the very 90-s fantasy tv show sort of mood to them for me.
But that may have been exactly because the mode that they play in is all fantasy-styled and stuff, with knights, dragons, and castles in the background.
The music from the first eight maps of this wad on the other hand doesn't make me think of any situation, fictional or real, at all, doesn't create ANY mood (well, it usually starts, but then the current track develops further and it self-destroys), no matter how different from the original doom. Apart from map05's track. But I've said it multiple times already.
Has the deviousness of taste, opinion and other such nonsense struck again? Damn it all!

In the end, none of my "whining", "complaining", "shitposting" or anything was intended in ill-will against any of the authors, and I hope that nothing to the contrary is ever even suggested. I merely tried to explain why the end result didn't end up working for me - and even that only because stewboy asked (yeah so blame him for all the shitposting or whatever!).

Although it was kind of crazy (as in, thinking I'm going crazy) reading the megawad club thread. I mean they had their complaints about map04 for example which I agreed with, but many of the things said about other maps and the wad in general were pretty much completely opposite of what I thought. I don't think I'll ever get used to such opposite opinions existing about one single thing.

Anyway, unless anyone is brave (or crazy) enough to ask me something else, I guess I'm showing myself out again now - no point in continuing to repeat the same stuff. That and I don't want dew to have health problems.

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Ragnor said:

Why do that when TNT Map 2's unfixed midi exists?

To keep the OT going, I'm just going to ask whether or not I'm alone in my preference to the 'quiet' version for TNT02 as opposed to the wall of noise that it was intended to be (at least, in the context of that particular map).

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Snakes said:

To keep the OT going, I'm just going to ask whether or not I'm alone in my preference to the 'quiet' version for TNT02 as opposed to the wall of noise that it was intended to be (at least, in the context of that particular map).

You're one of the two.

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i personally can't stand how much of a brickwall certain tracks are in TNT. in particular, map 2 and map 8 are absolutely horrible in that regard.

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Doomhuntress said:

some of the later tracks (and hell, even as early as map 4 here) evoke this feeling of melancholy


I've been wanting to comment on the music for a while, and this comment made me do it. Personally I get absolutely no melancholic vibes from the music in map04. When I hear the track I can picture myself (or someone else) exploring some kind of 'alien planet' or whatever, WITH A SMILE ON THEIR FACE. I'm getting visions of that horrible movie...what was it called again...ah yes, Avatar.

MY problem with much of the music in E2 isn't that it's 'happy', that's not the correct word. I find it 'cozy' (or any other synonym that fits better, I dunno), and that's a big problem. It ruins the atmosphere (for ME. Can't stress that enough apparently).

Prime example of 'melancholic exploration music' for me is AV map08 (still wondering where that midi is from).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fij16Ry6QP8

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darkreaver said:

Prime example of 'melancholic exploration music' for me is AV map08 (still wondering where that midi is from).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fij16Ry6QP8

Haha, that doesn't evoke any melancholy in me. It actually sounds more like a JRPG scene where a dramatic past event is revealed and you are supposed to feel shaken. If this track isn't identified yet, I'd recommend fishing in those waters. Also SGM soundfont, ew.

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dew said:

Haha, that doesn't evoke any melancholy in me. It actually sounds more like a JRPG scene where a dramatic past event is revealed and you are supposed to feel shaken. If this track isn't identified yet, I'd recommend fishing in those waters. Also SGM soundfont, ew.


Lol I can see what you mean, but in my ears it's perfect for 'epic exploration maps', and I do find it melacholic. I tend to like 'melancholic' and 'dark and mysterious' midis best, and I would have loved to hear more of that in BTSX because it would fit the maps really well imo.

I do like other stuff aswell, like SoD map31 is one of my favorites, and it suits the map perfectly!

Well, enough music talk from me, it's not what this thread is about I guess..

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Minor glitch in map15/beta 2: thing 297 - teleport destination is too close to a cliff (sector 1254). If a monster with big radius (ie: manucbus) teleports, it gets stuck. I'm not 100% sure this is the reason, because I swear I saw a pinky stuck as well, but most of the time they teleport correctly.

Anyways I spent hours and days on this map, amazing replayability. And layout beats map13!

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Not Jabba said:

That's from Lands of Lore 2, in the Huline Temple. I always loved that music.


hah! cheers. iirc the origin of that midi has been unknown for quite a long time. I think that leaves map09 and map30 as the only unidentified ones now.

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Are there any plans for a flac/mp3 release of the BTSX E1 & E2 tracks, rendered with the appropriate wavetables? I ask because I generally prefer to play without music, but all the recent discussion has me interested, and it would be nice to listen on a proper loudspeaker system, rather than my shitty DOOM machine.

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durian said:

Are there any plans for a flac/mp3 release of the BTSX E1 & E2 tracks, rendered with the appropriate wavetables? I ask because I generally prefer to play without music, but all the recent discussion has me interested, and it would be nice to listen on a proper loudspeaker system, rather than my shitty DOOM machine.


You can always just extract the midi files directly from the wad (for instance, with slade) and listen to them through a midi player, or encode them to mp3 files yourself if that's what you want. I use xmplay for playback and it can also do the encoding (flac/mp3/whatever) (with appropriate soundfont).

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esselfortium said:

MAP05 is the first hub map; you'll revisit it later on and see other areas. The *C versions of some of the hub maps are source-port versions that are edited for coop compatibility. In singleplayer they should be indistinguishable from the vanilla versions, but they correct some major issues with multiplayer.

Can you give some details about the issues, the fixes and why they require multiple versions of the same map(s) intended for specific ports?

Gating the version of a map to use according to whether or not a port supports the ZDoom-extended MAPINFO lump seems pretty horrid to me.

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DaniJ said:

Can you give some details about the issues, the fixes and why they require multiple versions of the same map(s) intended for specific ports?

Gating the version of a map to use according to whether or not a port supports the ZDoom-extended MAPINFO lump seems pretty horrid to me.

I believe there are some line-of-sight blockers in the singleplayer/vanilla version, which cause giant HOM walls in coop for players that happen to be on the wrong side of them. There are also some 3D bridge effects which make use of raising/lowering sectors that become inappropriately visible when multiple players are present -- those are replaced with Boom silent teleports in the multiplayer version.

It's not an ideal solution, but the vast majority of Doom multiplayer takes place on a few ports that all support MAPINFO, so it was the most effective solution we could find without simply removing the non-coop-friendly effects from the hub maps entirely.

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The upcoming Doomsday 1.15 features support for MAPINFO so I'm not concerned about this from the perspective of "being left out".

What concerns me most is that this sets a precedent for this sort of thing that I personally see as being extremely unhelpful from the perspective of cross-port compatibility.

This solution makes assumptions based on the current state of support which obviously can and will probably change in future. Is there really no better solution here? Why aren't the same fixes also applicable in single player?

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The same fixes aren't applicable in singleplayer because they only manifest when multiple player viewpoints in different locations need to be accounted for. In singleplayer, all of it happens out of view and isn't an issue. BTSX coop already demands a modern port for limit removing (archvile jumps can create lots of extra visplanes, and BTSX coop tends to add plenty of viles :P), so using Boom features and a MAPINFO lump to hack around its coop issues wasn't too much of a stretch.

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BlackFish said:

While we're on the topic of music, MAP13 sounds like Dream Theater's "Lost Not Forgotten".


DING DING DING!

:D

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But the altered versions of the maps will be used in single player also and you assume that if MAPINFO is supported then BOOM is supported also. Therefore, it won't work as you expect in Doomsday post 1.15 because what is otherwise a limit-removing mod is transformed into BOOM compatible simply because we implemented MAPINFO support.

Having varying requirements for the mod which depend on which port you try to run it in, which in turn depend on assumptions that are only valid at the time the mod is released is extremely unhelpful.

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