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Superluigieth1

Marathon.

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You know, that game from Bungie! I played it on iOS (CMON!) and it was fun. The level design looks like a 1995 DooM II mapper did it with DEU.
If you have played it, write about your experience.

EDIT: Quotes.

Clonehunter said:

Marathon sucked.


It was OK. OK.

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I have the Aleph 1 source port installed, though I'm sure it's outdated by now. I think I only made it about a third of the way through the first game. Definitely a lot heavier on the text and narrative side of things than Doom.

A mechanic that seems really quaint now is the run speed adding damage to your punches. I remember in the first level on the hardest difficulty it was a nightmare trying to survive due to a lack of ammo, and to make matters worse the game lacks quicksave. The only way through was to depend heavily on running punches, and it still took many attempts.

I'd say Marathon on Total Carnage is harder than Doom's UV, maybe roughly in line with Nightmare mode. Then again that's coming from a noob to the game who never played it when it was new.

It's definitely an interesting and well-made game. I hope I'm motivated enough to go back and play through the series some day.

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The first time i played a marathon game was trough aleph 1.
But the level design somewhat annoyed me so it ended up on a backup to not be played for a long time.
Although i wanted to play it as i like its concept.

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I've played it once, for some reason the mouse sensitivity is really weird for me. It's more responsive moving to the right than to the left. That and the choppy animation kinda turned me off it.

Sodaholic knows pretty much everything about it that any human being would ever want to know and more, I'm waiting for him to discover this thread.

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Linkrulezall said:

I've played it once, for some reason the mouse sensitivity is really weird for me. It's more responsive moving to the right than to the left.

Never noticed that, but the engine has other turning-related problems.

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Fun fact: There's this really long running criminal movie series in sweden called "Inspector Martin Beck". It once featured a story about an underground hacking network that played a game called "final doom" and competed with each other through "frags", both in game and IRL through decapitations on bums sleeping in the metro system. You get to see some in-game footage in the film and it's really weird. They launch the game and it says "final doom" with the marathon font. And when they play, they play marathon map01 with different sound fx.

Edit: I made a YT upload:

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Yes, the mouse controls are wonky. These settings VASTLY improve things, try 'em:

sens_horizontal="21845"
sens_vertical="65535"
mouse_acceleration="false"

You'll likely find the preference files in "C:\Users\[YOUR USER NAME HERE]\AppData\Local\AlephOne".

The idea is that you want to keep its awful internal "acceleration" (it actually slows things down it would seem) turned off, and have vertical sensitivity be 3x as high as the horizontal sensitivity, as that keeps it proportional to each other (vertical uses 3x resolution it seems, or at least moves exactly 3x as slow). So if you don't use the sensitivity settings above, keep in mind to scale it taking the 3x thing into account.

Linkrulezall said:

Sodaholic knows pretty much everything about it that any human being would ever want to know and more, I'm waiting for him to discover this thread.

I've actually been watching this thread quietly. I know Xaser quite likes the Marathon trilogy, maybe he'd have some interesting things to say about it.

While I probably know a lot more about Marathon than many people here, I'm no Marathon expert even if I know some of the story and many of the tech details. For example, I never really got that far in Marathon Infinity, that game is very demanding (though I'm slowly chipping away at it, it's a bitch when it comes to the storyline and split timelines).

Dumb tech details:

Marathon uses a "polygon" system which are basically sectors that cannot be concave, only have 8 sides max, and are purely portal based (no BSP). They explicitly connect by shared linedefs. Because of this, it can be easily exploited with a method called "5D space", which is when you connect a series of polygons and eventually have them overlap on the overhead map. This can be used for 3D space (think of it like Doom 64's false 3D, but done properly), or you can even have floor and ceiling heights conflict, creating physically impossible levels. Each polygon is treated like its own independently operated space; actor positions are first defined as which poly they're in, and monster movement is actually based on the shortest number of polys to the target, using the mid points of linedefs as path nodes (you must account for this when designing map geometry).

It's kind of odd how its units work. Marathon uses "world units" which are roughly equivalent to 88x72 Doom map units relative to player scale, and each world unit has 1024 sub-pixels. Textures are 128x128 square. Maps can only be 64x64x18 world units large. Map geometry can therefore have unnecessarily higher resolution vertex positions, but much potential detail is negated by the limited polygon shapes and the square textures.

Of course, the game was designed for 640x480, and thus uses square pixels at 30 FPS instead of Doom's 320x200 with 5:6 pixels at 35 FPS.

Oh, and enemy AI worked pretty differently from Doom's, and even some differences between Marathon 1 and Marathon 2. Marathon used some weird convoluted flags for polygons called "glue", "superglue" and "glue trigger". It was replaced by the more straightforward "zone borders", "monster trigger", "blind monster" and "deaf monster".

Generally, the engine tried to avoid large floating point as much as possible in its spacial calculations, typically being smaller integers.


Clonehunter said:

Marathon sucked.

Ah, come on, man. You just don't appreciate it as the art piece that it is. So it isn't Doom, so what? It's not trying to be. Sure, it's very similar in design (monsters, mazes, guns), but it ultimately has different design goals.

Player and monster movement play by very specific rules that are easy to learn once you get the 'feel' for it, and its combat is more strategic. It's truly old-school design and not an arcade romp, but what's wrong with old school design as long as it's not irredeemably bullshit? It's got its questionable moments in a couple of levels (can anyone say "Colony Ship for Sale, Cheap!"?), but its nowhere near the level of an unfair text adventure. Its design comes more from Pathways Into Darkness than Wolfy or Doom. And frankly, PiD WAS bullshit, Marathon was the proper execution of its overall design philosophy even if it did make a few compromises for more fluid mobility and combat (and really, it's better without the cramped and slow spaces, it was PiDiful).

It's more of a thinking man's game. It's less focused on visceral fun; but rather storytelling and complex (for a '94 shooter) problem solving. Its "5D space" really makes for some more complex level design, even if the level boundaries are smaller than Doom's.

If it's not your cup of tea, fine, no problem, but it's a very good trilogy despite the few flaws that it has that can easily be overlooked and even gotten used to by those that appreciate its design. Different isn't always worse; fuck convention, just accomplish what you set out to do, even if it's more niche as a result (commercially, this is a different matter, but I'm talking artistically here).

Now, I will say that Aleph One could use a few tweaks to improve user experience, but I love the games so much that I try to work around those limitations. If I could get off my lazy ass, I'd finish my "Aleph Two" fork that has better mouse control, and I'd like to eventually do framerate interpolation, automated glance usage (faster strafing, don't show up as easily on the radar when turning while standing still, basically what Halo 1 did with streamlining Marathon's movement system design that most people don't even notice was actually in there), and the main menu + options menu without exiting the game in progress (as it is in Doom/Quake/most ever other shooter out there).

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Three facts about Marathon.

1. It has slower (than in Doom) movement speed with slightly counter-intuitive physics.
2. It has more switch-hunting than Doom.
3. It has terminals with a lot of text. Some of them are acting like switches. Some of them are giving away information about other interactive objects.

An interesting thing about these properties is that they make the players think that they're thinking. :)

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The one time I tried it ages ago it turned out to be an unplayable mess.

Weird movement and ridiculous map design are unacceptable and you can't be serious defending them with the "oldschool" angle.

As far as obscure old FPSs go I'll take Cybermage and Amiga's Alien Breed 3D over this shit anytime.

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Shit games don't have communities that are still somewhat alive after 20 years.

Although I have to admit that the first game's level design haven't aged very well.

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Da Werecat said:

Shit games don't have communities that are still somewhat alive after 20 years.

Religion says otherwise.

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Reading about Marathon and knowing Microsoft's history, I have a feeling Bungie was bought to take out a competing platform's game maker. Like they did with Rare.

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Very interesting information, Sodaholic. I have only played a little bit of Marathon (a fair part of it back in the nineties on a Mac at my friend's house), but it seems like a game that warrants a playthrough sometime soon.
I fondly remember being frightened by the Drinniols (which we called "trolls" back then) ...and gunning down BoBs.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right, geo.

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An interesting thing about these properties is that they make the players think that they're thinking. :)


Ha! Now that's a line worth stealing.

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The 3D Marathon games are somewhat crappy particularly in level design as it falls short of the majority of other 2.5D games, however the second 3D Marathon is a little too complicated and complex with its first map.

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Da Werecat said:

Your religion says something about shit games? Interesting.

It is a mac game, of course it is a religion.

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Sodaholic said:

Stuff


Game breaking text walls and awful layouts can only be related to the Art Museum's display of a canvas painted with several splotches of color that the artist did when he was drunk, and then tried to pass it off as meaningful. The game does have atmosphere with its slower combat, and one enemy who I think could teleport or something. But it was still incredibly boring. And again, the actual design of the levels were awful, not to mention that texturing job. Nothing really matched and looked as someone had just thrown textures wherever they felt it was necessary with no rhyme or reason.

Now, I haven't gone past the first game, so maybe the others are slightly better. If I find the time I'll probably try those two out.

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Clonehunter said:

Game breaking text walls...

Not every game has to be a non-stop action.

...not to mention that texturing job. Nothing really matched and looked as someone had just thrown textures wherever they felt it was necessary with no rhyme or reason.

I hope you realize that you just described Sandy Petersen's maps. :)

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Da Werecat said:

Not every game has to be a non-stop action.


No it doesn't, but those text walls don't even work in that context.


I hope you realize that you just described Sandy Petersen's maps. :)


Never said Doom was perfect :P

Where's that "Abstract Hell" macro?

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Completed Marathon, completed Marathon 2: Durandle and have no idea what the fuck to do or what the hell was going on in Marathon: Infinity.

I found that Marathon was unforgivably ugly and just downright horrendous to look at, not even the HD texture and sprite packs could stop it from looking nasty. However the game itself was rather enjoyable... Except for all the Bob related missions and Phoraphobia (?), those maps can get fucked.

Marathon 2 was a lot better looking but the environments you were put into lacked any clear theme or competent character, some of the new ideas were interesting though. The gameplay was also somewhat enjoyable (with the XBLA version having a very enjoyable singleplayer survival game mode) and even more challenging due to the new enemies and other gimmicks (Frog blast the vent core!).

Marathon Infinity (from what I saw) was the best looking Marathon out of the lot, however I can't get past the first map due to it being an overcomplicated cluster fuck of random rooms and pointless crap.

EDIT: Isn't Marathon now freeware from Bungie's official Marathon website? If so can we post links?

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I did try to play the Aleph One port yesterday after reading again about the fuzz (and some comment of how horrible Doom was in comparison of Marathon). It's my second try. I tried to start from the first one, because the most interesting for me might be the supposedly story with computer panels. I want to play and finish the trilogy just for the history, and to see what the fuzz was all about.

But the graphics and level design, even if they argue it's better, for me it's very bland, definitely worse than doom. Very boring rectangular rooms, textures that doesn't match, enemies/weapons that feel ugly/plastic. There is something revolting in it, and I am pretty if one made a WAD with similar graphics/level design, it would take tons of negative reviews just because of that.

But I'll give it a try, if I can find out how to invert mouse Y axis. I didn't find any options on the Aleph One menu. Maybe I should check the config file. And that X/Y acceleration, it will be very helpful, I did noticed that the movement was weird with mouse and easily made me motion sicknessed even. All these fact already made me quit the game yesterday, it doesn scream to me "Play me!!!" but the opposite "Avoid me!". But I'll give it the benefit of doubt when I solved the mouse invert problem and weird mouse movement.

Maybe it's because I never played it when it was first released. I never had a Mac ever to even know this game existed. Now with modern eyes it looks like a mediocre doom clone to me, and definitely not better than Doom.

Oh and for me it's ok if people come and say "There was Marathon besides doom, it had some elements that Doom lacked" but all I get is people say "Doom is overrated. It's horrible. It's boring. Mararthon has everything better, from graphics, textures enemies, to better shooting, better level design and story". Yep, I hear that sometimes from Marathon fans. While the story plot with the computer panels and other elements are more rich than Doom mindless shooting, visually and level/enemy design seems pretty bland to me. It might be better in two things that doom for the time (mouselook and story) but it seems to be lacking in all the rest.

Oh and for the comparison, others tried to do more story oriented gameplay too, for example Strife. I didn't even know this at the time, I did try to play it recently and it DID keep me hooked. Strife succeeded even after so many year to make me wow with it's world (dialogues, changing environments, atmosphere, three finales, visual style and all that). I hope marathon won't disappoint me if I ever managed to get into.

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Optimus said:

...but all I get is people say "Doom is overrated. It's horrible. It's boring. Mararthon has everything better, from graphics, textures enemies, to better shooting, better level design and story".

I like Marathon but this is simply not the case, the level design, shooting, graphics, textures and enemies are god damn horrendous compared to Doom.

The guy who thought getting stuck in a corridor because your brain dead AI "allies" can't comprehend the concept of getting out of the way and then proceeds to get stuck there (for pretty much all eternity) was good design has clearly lost it.

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Marathon fans about Doom:
Marathon totally wrecked Doom! Doom is so much worse! Marathon has great story elements, and Doom hasn't! Marathon's gameplay is also totally better, because it has story elements attached to it! By the way, did we mention that Marathon has a great story?

Doom fans about Marathon:
who

Optimus said:

But I'll give it a try, if I can find out how to invert mouse Y axis. I didn't find any options on the Aleph One menu.

Controls -> Mouse -> Invert Mouse checkbox.

mrthejoshmon said:

The guy who thought getting stuck in a corridor because your brain dead AI "allies" can't comprehend the concept of getting out of the way and then proceeds to get stuck there (for pretty much all eternity) was good design has clearly lost it.

Those missions where you're asked to protect civilians are so ludicrous. We should be thankful that nothing actually depends on how many people are killed, aside from a few terminal messages.

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Da Werecat said:

Those missions where you're asked to protect civilians are so ludicrous. We should be thankful that nothing actually depends on how many people are killed, aside from a few terminal messages.

And then you get those missions in Marathon 2 where you have to aid the BOBs who then get stuck in the corridor and killing them or shooting them to try and get your way to get through that corridor results in a hail of gunfire heading towards you (Which destroys you almost instantly on harder difficulties) as well as Durandle himself often scolding you for it.

Well, they are not as bad as the Marathon 1 BOB encounters but they are still terrible.

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