DWMC Tangent: Camping/Traps Gameplay Discussion

[Seele00TextOnly]

Edit by esselfortium: I split off this tangent from the Megawad Club's BTSX E2 playthrough discussion, since it's gotten pretty involved and off-topic there. Feel free to continue the discussion here.

I will never understand why so many Doom players retreat at every opportunity. That's so boring. I suppose us playtesters should have constantly been reminding ourselves that half the players of the wad wouldn't actually be out to have a good time, and were instead bent on playing cowardly.

[Ribbiks]

-.-'

[Memfis]

If to have fun you need to pretend to be a dummy and willingly allow the monsters to get an advantageous position in every second fight then something is wrong perhaps, I'm just guessing.

[Tarnsman]

Memfis said:

If to have fun you need to pretend to be a dummy and willingly allow the monsters to get an advantageous position in every second fight then something is wrong perhaps, I'm just guessing.

That's not the argument at all. The argument is Doom is a game about speed and yet many players instead of using their speed to constantly charge a head elect to funnel everything back into mono-directional gameplay like they're playing Call of Duty. That's a play style choice. It's not playing smart, you have enough mobility in Doom that you can just play with reckless abandon.

[j4rio]

Tarnsman said:

That's not the argument at all. The argument is Doom is a game about speed and yet many players instead of using their speed to constantly charge a head elect to funnel everything back into mono-directional gameplay like they're playing Call of Duty. That's a play style choice. It's not playing smart, you have enough mobility in Doom that you can just play with reckless abandon.

So how is it expected of player to play a map? You may have high mobility, but don't forget you also have extremely low durability. You can die from 2 unlucky hits of higher tier monsters and I personally prefer that not to happen. Leaving something potentially deadly behind alive freely roaming is not exactly tactical and nobody with self-respect would really dwell on playing like that, especially when the map is still unknown to player and (s)he is clueless whether leaving something alive wouldn't backfire later.

[dew]

j4rio said:

So how is it expected of player to play a map? You may have high mobility, but don't forget you also have extremely low durability. You can die from 2 unlucky hits of higher tier monsters and I personally prefer that not to happen. Leaving something potentially deadly behind alive freely roaming is not exactly tactical and nobody with self-respect would really dwell on playing like that, especially when the map is still unknown to player and (s)he is clueless whether leaving something alive wouldn't backfire later.

Aye, I think we all agree the cacos on map10 don't work because of this. I also think Tarnsman was rather talking about corner camping a any old fight with weak weaponry, because living is scary and oh god what if girls teleport behind me. Wait, not that.

[Seele00TextOnly]

I'm not even advocating leaving things alive, that's more for speedrunners I would fathom. I'm just saying that charging into a room and taking the monsters on on their own turf is, I dunno, to me at least, fun. And I can't imagine spending the entire game taking aim down long corridors and hiding around corners scared of the big bad monsters. I just don't play scared; Doom isn't survival horror. It's arcade style action, dodging, speed, etc. That's how I look at it anyway. And yeah my playstyle means lots of dying, but I make up for that by saving on occasions. I realize saving is anathama to a large portion of the Doom players, but I figured that those same people weren't also simultaneously scaredy cats as a result. It would all be quite amusing if it weren't simultaneously so frustrating. Because our cowardly campers are also whiners on top of everything else, so they whine about how they keep getting to engage in their favorite hobby. So we get a thread half full of complaints from people that think gameplay is being locked in a room every ten feet for setpiece battles and everything else is just ~such~ ~busywork~; oh the chore of it all!

Edit: I concur with Justince beneath me, I too will miss all the 40oz fanfiction. It was quite the popcorn munching affair. God he is the most bitter person I've ever seen on the internet.

[40oz]

Seele00TextOnly said:

I will never understand why so many Doom players retreat at every opportunity. That's so boring. I suppose us playtesters should have constantly been reminding ourselves that half the players of the wad wouldn't actually be out to have a good time, and were instead bent on playing cowardly.

What I'm not understanding is that you are expecting the player to play a certain way without taking effective action to prevent them from doing the opposite. Players will exercise every known possibility to win and interesting gameplay depends on the mapper fighting what they know. This is the reason why things like wall running and sr50ing and archvile jumping exist. When youre the level designer, you make the rules.

The idea that players can avoid monsters by retreating to places that are safe are a natural instinct for the player and there have been trivial mapping solutions to this for decades, starting with the Doom and Doom 2 IWADs. Closing doors behind the player being the most common. Theres teleporters, dropoffs, lifts, and other ways to block the player from returning to previously covered ground during times of intense combat.

UAC Ultra 2 suffered problems like this but I intentionally designed it for default cooperative support (opposed to survival coop) and nightmare difficulty, where running back and forth to previously covered areas wouldn't really help the player given the mechanics of nightmare modes gameplay, but I've even discussed solutions for incorporating both successful ultra violence and nightmare difficulty in the same maps in my uac ultra 2 blog.

EDIT: Respectfully, I understand the run and gun gameplay, and I'll upload my FDAs if you want to set aside the five or six hours it took me to play up to the point that I did, but I often do run recklessly onto the fray, until quickly taking a ton of damage from monsters early on and few valuable weapons and very little ammo. It killed me many times and made the playthrough of most maps needlessly stressful, as I desperately reconned the maps for the parts that made it fun. For the maps that got poor reviews, these parts were either scarce or nonexistent.

if the maps opened up with a megaarmor, guns, and a ton of ammo up front, id have the resources I need to successfully run out blindly shooting at everything, but many maps are so starved of ammo that it felt like the mappers really didn't want to let me do that. In the context of call of duty, its like being told to fight before your health has fully regenerated.

[Cynical]

Seele00TextOnly said:

I'm not even advocating leaving things alive, that's more for speedrunners I would fathom. I'm just saying that charging into a room and taking the monsters on on their own turf is, I dunno, to me at least, fun. And I can't imagine spending the entire game taking aim down long corridors and hiding around corners scared of the big bad monsters. I just don't play scared; Doom isn't survival horror. It's arcade style action, dodging, speed, etc. That's how I look at it anyway. And yeah my playstyle means lots of dying, but I make up for that by saving on occasions. I realize saving is anathama to a large portion of the Doom players, but I figured that those same people weren't also simultaneously scaredy cats as a result. It would all be quite amusing if it weren't simultaneously so frustrating. Because our cowardly campers are also whiners on top of everything else, so they whine about how they keep getting to engage in their favorite hobby. So we get a thread half full of complaints from people that think gameplay is being locked in a room every ten feet for setpiece battles and everything else is just ~such~ ~busywork~; oh the chore of it all!

Intentionally playing badly isn't "fun". When I play a map, I want to use the best tactics I can, and I want the map to support this. If a map can't support this, it's not a good map, period.

BTW, there's plenty of maps that have "oh crap, hold the breech!" fights that are incredibly exciting. Have a look at the "key" fights in Deus Vult II map 23 (especially the Cleric war), the advancing wall-of-imps at the start on the east side of Deus Vult II map 21, the imp battle near the "Donut" in Sunder map 12, the finale of Plutonium Winds map 16, the mass Imp/Vile battle about halfway through Speed of Doom map 14, and there's tons more that I just can't think of right now. "Hold the breech, and avoid getting pushed back" is a classic fight archetype, and it IS choke-camping -- albeit, choke-camping enshrined in a level's design.

There's nothing wrong with camping/chokepointing itself. Boring camping is a problem, though, and it's a problem that stems from weak level design.

[Tarnsman]

Run and gun is not playing badly. Unless you are terrible at playing Doom camping is not a tactic. It is very easy to dodge nearly everything thrown at you (even if it's behind you and you can't see it), you're not playing Call of Duty, use your mobility as a defense. It's nice when a map throws you a trap that limits your space and requires you to think on your feet but if that's all the map does it becomes boring as shit.

Doom is like driving on an empty road with no speed limit. It's fun to be able to go as fast or as slow as you want. It's also fun to occasionally have to bob and weave through obstetrical but it you clog the road with that for the entire drive, then it's no longer an exciting moment. That's why Death Destiny maps are so fucking boring. That's all it is 100% of the time and the maps aren't usually small enough for it to be a small concept map where that works.

[Cynical]

Tarnsman said:

Run and gun is not playing badly. Unless you are terrible at playing Doom camping is not a tactic. It is very easy to dodge nearly everything thrown at you (even if it's behind you and you can't see it), you're not playing Call of Duty, use your mobility as a defense. It's nice when a map throws you a trap that limits your space and requires you to think on your feet but if that's all the map does it becomes boring as shit.

Doom is like driving on an empty road with no speed limit. It's fun to be able to go as fast or as slow as you want. It's also fun to occasionally have to bob and weave through obstetrical but it you clog the road with that for the entire drive, then it's no longer an exciting moment.

Camping isn't a tactic? That literally makes no sense. Maybe you meant to write "it's not a necessary tactic", in which case I want to know how you survived the western wing of DVII map 23 without trying to bottle the Clerics up on the narrow staircase.

BTW, claiming that the only options are "camping friendly" and "doors-shut battles every 10 feet, Ribbiks-style"(note, this isn't meant to be a knock on Ribbiks's maps; SWtW is very good) is an obvious false dichotomy. Go play Hell Revealed map 15, Scythe map 29, Scythe 2 map 26, Vanguard map 02, or basically any map from Unholy Realms's second or third episodes.

[Tarnsman]

Cynical said:

BTW, claiming that the only options are "camping friendly" and "doors-shut battles every 10 feet, Ribbiks-style"(note, this isn't meant to be a knock on Ribbiks's maps; SWtW is very good) is an obvious false dichotomy. Go play Hell Revealed map 15, Scythe map 29, Scythe 2 map 26, Vanguard map 02, or basically any map from Unholy Realms's second or third episodes.

You can camp the fuck out of all those things you just listed. (Particularly anything in Unholy Realms or Vanguard which are extremely susceptible to the good old, plow to a corner and turn around and hold mouse one method) As for DV2 Map 23? You have to camp that fight and it's beyond boring as shit as a result. It's the epitome of "hold down mouse one on what is in front of me" Huy Pham agrees that's why he's revamping DV2's gameplay. Camping isn't a tactic in single-player Doom the same way that UVCrab isn't a tactic. It's so perfunctory and unneeded in normal Doom game play unless you force the player to do it or you really want to do it, there is generally no reason to do it.

[j4rio]

Tarnsman said:

It's nice when a map throws you a trap that limits your space and requires you to think on your feet but if that's all the map does it becomes boring as shit.

I think maps that just refuse to trap player by any means become boring as shit for me much sooner than maps consisting of constant traps.

[Cynical]

Tarnsman said:

You can camp the fuck out of all those things you just listed. (Particularly anything in Unholy Realms or Vanguard which are extremely susceptible to the good old, plow to a corner and turn around and hold mouse one method) As for DV2 Map 23? You have to camp that fight and it's beyond boring as shit as a result. It's the epitome of "hold down mouse one on what is in front of me" Huy Pham agrees that's why he's revamping DV2's gameplay. Camping isn't a tactic in single-player Doom the same way that UVCrab isn't a tactic. It's so perfunctory and unneeded in normal Doom game play unless you force the player to do it or you really want to do it, there is generally no reason to do it.

Ok, now I'm curious -- how the hell are you camping HR15, the map that doesn't even give you a weapon without running deep into the map? How the hell are you camping Scythe2 26, where if you try to wait for the Viles and PE's to come to you, you'll run out of ammo because they'll turn the entire map into Lost Souls and monsters you've already killed, and there's not enough ammo for you to deal with that sort of situation?

Also, I strongly disagree with that fight in DV2 23 being "boring". Given that I've seen it mentioned by multiple people as one of the best fights ever in a PWAD, I doubt I'm alone in that. Knowing that Huy wants to change it gives me that much more motivation to make sure I keep a copy of 1-u squirreled away, though, and makes me that much less confident in the 2nd edition (and I was already predicting 2nd edition to be weaker than 1-u).

[dew]

j4rio said:

I think maps that just refuse to trap player by any means become boring as shit for me much sooner than maps consisting of constant traps.

I think this opinion was debunked a long time ago by Legacy of Suffering and its insufferable tedium. Also you're creating an extreme case, because BtSX maps still utilize traps and lock-ins, just not at every other step as some prefer.

I will say I stopped listening to anything Cynical has to say, because that guy is a fucking moron with no clue what he's talking about. His use of "examples" is self-serving bullshit with no consistency and the guy cornered himself into a "loud white noise"-type guy. I'd recommend mappers to avoid his feedback and never bring him on board as an internal tester. He contradicts himself all the time and he will just make your life needlessly hard without the proper gains. Beware!

[Tarnsman]

Cynical said:

Ok, now I'm curious -- how the hell are you camping HR15, the map that doesn't even give you a weapon without running deep into the map? How the hell are you camping Scythe2 26

Because you can go up to the encounters in the map and then proceed to find a corner and marry it? Dragging stuff around a corner while backtracking into your tent is camping buddy.

[Cynical]

dew said:

I think this opinion was debunked a long time ago by Legacy of Suffering and its insufferable tedium. Also you're creating an extreme case, because BtSX maps still utilize traps and lock-ins, just not at every other step as some prefer.

I will say I stopped listening to anything Cynical has to say, because that guy is a fucking moron with no clue what he's talking about. His use of "examples" is self-serving bullshit with no consistency and the guy cornered himself into a "loud white noise"-type guy. I'd recommend mappers to avoid his feedback and never bring him on board as an internal tester. He contradicts himself all the time and he will just make your life needlessly hard without the proper gains. Beware!

Yeah, I have no idea what I'm talking about. That's why the Resurgence public betas are still making changes I suggested back when the wad only had 22 maps + one secret map, right?

[Memfis]

I'm not sure how fair it is to blame people for the lack of consistency in their comments on gameplay. I believe that any player can find similar situations fun at some times and not fun at other, and it all may depend on their mood when playing, on the used midi, on being a tester of the project, on being a hater of the mapper, etc, etc, etc. I doubt that anyone from this forum would be able to write down a comprehensive list of their gameplay preferences that wouldn't contradict some of their opinions. In that sense, talking about the gameplay on such a deep level as we are doing here is meaningless quite frankly, and of course trying to actually "prove" something is just plain laughable.

[dew]

Cynical said:

Yeah, I have no idea what I'm talking about. That's why the Resurgence public betas are still making changes I suggested back when the wad only had 22 maps + one secret map, right?

What are you trying to accomplish here, little man? Trying to get between me and Joshy? I'll cut you, bitch.

Anyways, your map number spam was beyond ridiculous. What does sc29 have in common with fucking dv2-23? And somehow vg02 gets thrown into the mix as well? And hr15? That makes no sense at all, you ridiculous little troll. There is no consistency in your argument, there is just strawmanning.

[40oz]

Memfis said:

I'm not sure how fair it is to blame people for the lack of consistency in their comments on gameplay. I believe that any player can find similar situations fun at some times and not fun at other, and it all may depend on their mood when playing, on the used midi, on being a tester of the project, on being a hater of the mapper, etc, etc, etc. I doubt that anyone from this forum would be able to write down a comprehensive list of their gameplay preferences that wouldn't contradict some of their opinions. In that sense, talking about the gameplay on such a deep level as we are doing here is meaningless quite frankly, and of course trying to actually "prove" something is just plain laughable.

A lot of my distaste for MAP06 came from how lethargic MAP04 made me.

I'm no fan of camping or whatever either. In fact, I was tempted to write a plea a few months ago (in the form of a doomworld thread) to people who record FDAs to stop playing like a tactical sniper. Too many times I've seen their demos play through a map and examine every insignificant misaligned texture for a secret, pistol snipe imps from afar, and tiptoe every where, sometimes intentionally never shoot anywhere and successfully break teleport ambushes that way. These people, however, have notoriously low death counts in first plays in wads that I've even yet to complete after multiple attempts. They seem to have an immediate aversion to dying and starting over and without a doubt, they've chosen the most statistically efficient option. I find myself to be more of a risk taker, diving head first to avoid the risk of breaking a trap and not seeing it the way it was intended or whatever.

Set piece encounters were a very powerful way to put that type of gameplay to rest (albeit, overpowered for the type of gameplay btsx should want), so there's a lot to learn here.

[Cynical]

dew said:

What are you trying to accomplish here, little man? Trying to get between me and Joshy? I'll cut you, bitch.

Anyways, your map number spam was beyond ridiculous. What does sc29 have in common with fucking dv2-23? And somehow vg02 gets thrown into the mix as well? And hr15? That makes no sense at all, you ridiculous little troll. There is no consistency in your argument, there is just strawmanning.

I should ask you, what are you trying to accomplish? You're the one who brought up my internal playtesting efforts, and I can only assume you were talking about Resurgence, since all of my other playtesting has been at least partially "open".

You're the one who's trying to start shit here by the looks of things.

And the answer is that few of those maps have much to do with each other at all (although if you don't see what HR15 has in common with SC29, I'm not sure I can help you). DVII was mentioned as an example of a map with fun camping encounters; HR15, SC29, VG2, and UR were mentioned as examples of non trap-oriented maps without lots of camping. Scythe2 29 was mentioned as another example, specifically because it's a very different map to those mentioned above, but still manages to not get "door-campy" without locking you into places constantly.

[Demon of the Well]

Like everything else, camping as a design choice for an encounter is sometimes reasonable/compelling, sometimes not. By the same token, camping as a player's tactical choice is not always a mark of cowardice or a lack of adventuresome spirit or anything so absurdly lofty as 'missing the fundamental point of the game', that's preposterous.

'Eureka Signs', the map that was being discussed when this tangent was created, has both encounters that CAN be camped (e.g. the current cacodemon swarm setup in the underground pool/library area) and encounters that, by design, essentially MUST be camped (e.g. the two viles + zombies + spiderbaby that rise up out of the water beyond the wooden gate in the blue key area, right before the map 'loops' for the first time). This is a natural--and in no way categorically invalid--function of its essentially linear design. The discourse on the subject here has reached a point where the question of who is responsible for the player having fun in a given map has been posed as an absolute dichotomy (that is, it's either almost entirely up to the player, or almost entirely up to the mapper), which is frankly absurd.

Looking at Eureka Signs as an example, as a whole I would say it's fairly balanced in this regard. A couple of fights are apparently designed to be chokepointed, but they are brief and the numerical minority; many of the marquee battles employ measures designed to keep a player from just having to man a threshold and hold down the fire button, often accomplished in this case by deploying monsters that attack from the rear to try to force the player forward into occupied territory, or at least make it more difficult to stick to one particular spot without accepting some attrition. Granted, given the generally spacious quality of the map in many cases it's still not particularly difficult to retreat and camp some of these battles from a previously cleared area if you really want to; bearing in mind that there's always room for tweaks to tighten things up a bit, in many of these cases I'm inclined to say "It's the thought that counts" and chalk any privation of entertainment up to the player's approach (which skews the issue a bit in that I think most players who do this constantly during casual play genuinely enjoy playing that way, ala JohnSuitepee, while some might call it into question much more fervently because that's how they interpret their role as a source of feedback for an in-dev project). On the other side of the coin, when there is no real concerted attempt to ever throw the player a curveball or to try to force them out of their comfort zone at all, I'm inclined to say it's the mapper not really holding up his/her end of the bargain (though it's easier to get away with this on an individual map level if it's a part of a larger set that has other maps with very different styles of action). A similar thing is when field testing by different players with different playstyles, all of whom have no prior experience of the map in question, consistently shows that almost everyone doesn't have an intended/anticipated reaction to an encounter (e.g. the cacoswarm in Eureka Signs, apparently), in which case it's probably a good idea to get the hood up and tinker around some more, rather than simply handwaving the discrepancy aside by holding that everybody's just playing it like a wuss or to spite the intended design for the sake of doing so.

I guess what I'm saying is that the interplay between the way a mapper maps and a player plays is a two-way street, and for optimal results to be achieved, the two parties have to be willing to meet each other halfway, so to speak.

[WH-Wilou84]

Tarnsman said:
It's not playing smart, you have enough mobility in Doom that you can just play with reckless abandon.

Provided you play with saves or you have unlimited time on your hands, that is.
When recording a FDA ( and particularly on these relatively large BtSX E2 maps ), a player will try his/her best to avoid dying, because dying means restarting all over again. Considering this, it's then 'smart' to use our survival instincts as much as possible and retreat to a safer zone instead of staying too close to a chaotic firefight and taking unneeded risks. As j4rio said, Doomguy may be fast, but he's extremely frail.
And who knows, maybe ( maybe ? ) our definition of fun isn't the same as yours ( and OP's )... ? Maybe we can find some sense of enjoyment and achievement in surviving a long map in a FDA, even if we played cowardly ?
Doom is a game that caters to so many different tastes, there's no golden ruleset as to what is 'fun' or 'boring' and what is not.

Tarnsman said:
That's why Death Destiny maps are so fucking boring.

A matter of taste, I suppose.

Anyway... What's the big deal here ? Some people don't like BtSX, whether they have valid complaints or they decided that they won't like it no matter what because of old grudges and whatnot ?
Who cares... You guys should not try to please everyone, because you just can't :)

[dew]

Cynical said:

stuff

I'm calling your opinions on Doom maps poor and lacking in reasoning.

DV2: I think the entire wad is overrated a lot. Especially the spam maps, which are insufferably repetitive and overlong. map23 is a glorious piece of turd that takes like 20-30 minutes to clear and the entire experience is constant switching between spam & camp. It may appeal to slaughterfans, but it has no place in a map design argument, because there is none. map21 is much better, but I still don't see how a hard slaughter map is relevant to whatever you are trying to prove regarding the first 10 maps of BtSX e2.

HR15 is a gimmick map. I might as well tell you to go play BtSX e2map17. The entire map is a gimmick, what is your point here?

Scythe 2 map26 is most definitely a map based around corner camping and ammo starvation, so I don't get this one at all.

Scythe map29 became Scythe 2 map29 between posts, but alright. That map locks you in the RK temple and its noodly design directly requires you to hug walls and camp corners while you plink overstrong monsters to death with whatever ammo you still possess.

And UR uses a wide variety of traps, shock ambushes and lock-ins... but you can still troll a lot of the design with overly careful playing.

You'll have to spell it out for me, what is Vanguard 02 doing in the list again?

I have played all these maps, you know? You can't fool me with your fake knowledge. Also most of your examples are either very hard maps from very hard mapsets or very hard maps from the end of mapsets with a steep difficulty curve. This is extremely unfair from you.

[j4rio]

dew said:

I think this opinion was debunked a long time ago by Legacy of Suffering and its insufferable tedium. Also you're creating an extreme case, because BtSX maps still utilize traps and lock-ins, just not at every other step as some prefer.

I didn't really accuse btsx of that. At least definitely nowhere near all of it. The extreme case was also on purpose, to oppose the other extreme.

I'm actually very open minded about the term "trap", it doesn't have to be anything more than a single hitscanner popping from behind a wall instead of him just being simply visible in case of purposefully easy maps.

[Cynical]

dew said:

I'm calling your opinions on Doom maps poor and lacking in reasoning.

DV2: I think the entire wad is overrated a lot. Especially the spam maps, which are insufferably repetitive and overlong. map23 is a glorious piece of turd that takes like 20-30 minutes to clear and the entire experience is constant switching between spam & camp. It may appeal to slaughterfans, but it has no place in a map design argument, because there is none. map21 is much better, but I still don't see how a hard slaughter map is relevant to whatever you are trying to prove regarding the first 10 maps of BtSX e2.

DV2 map 21 isn't a slaughtermap, aside from the central cathedral battle, which wasn't the part I mentioned (the part I mentioned was a battle with a shotgun vs. a group of imps -- the one that comes after you touch the first Pentagram if you go to the left first).

Claiming that map 23 has no map design is absurd.

Scythe 2 map26 is most definitely a map based around corner camping and ammo starvation, so I don't get this one at all.

Ammo starvation, yes, but if you just try to corner-camp every encounter, it's really easy to get stuck in a position where you can't win because the AVs have rezzed a wall of stuff at a chokepoint and you can't get through to them without running out of ammo (this happened to me the first time I played it back when it was released, so it sticks out in my memory a lot).

Scythe map29 became Scythe 2 map29 between posts, but alright. That map locks you in the RK temple and its noodly design directly requires you to hug walls and camp corners while you plink overstrong monsters to death with whatever ammo you still possess.

I meant Scythe 1 map 29, not Scythe 2 map 29, which I've never beaten and thus will take your word for what happens in it.

You'll have to spell it out for me, what is Vanguard 02 doing in the list again?

What, are you claiming that it's a map that locks doors behind you every few steps?!?! Or are you claiming that you're choke-camping a lot in that open layout?

EDIT: I just realized, I think I've been getting my map numbers confused. On "HR15", I'm referring to the E2 urban sandbox level with view out to the skybox immediately outside the playable bounds (which it just occurs to me probably isn't map 15, since the secret exit is in the weird octagonal map). So that's probably a part of the confusion here. Whoops.

[j4rio]

^

Whatever the hell you're trying to prove with naming a bunch of random maps, your point is vague, to me even nonexistent. There's a difference between being cynical and being an annoying ass for the hell of it.

[Demonologist]

dew said:

I will say I stopped listening to anything Cynical has to say, because that guy is a fucking moron with no clue what he's talking about. His use of "examples" is self-serving bullshit with no consistency and the guy cornered himself into a "loud white noise"-type guy. I'd recommend mappers to avoid his feedback and never bring him on board as an internal tester. He contradicts himself all the time and he will just make your life needlessly hard without the proper gains. Beware!

Now, don't you think that it is you who's overstepping his boundary here? With all respect (and I do have respect for you, believe it or not, though sometimes you try really hard to spoil it as it seems) - taking shit on a personal level and switching to direct insults is not the thing a mature person (and especially a mod) would pull off in a reasonable discussion, even if this discussion is stillborn. Seriously.


But at least I could thank you guys for giving me several minutes of good laugh while taking a coffee break in my office routine. Haven't you got anything better to do? Go play some Doom instead, and play it the way you like.

[Devalaous]

Yet again, the Tarnsman/Dew/J4rio trio messing up threads.

[j4rio]

The above post has me so deeply offended. The scars on my soul may never heal anymore due to those foul words of the most despicable kind passing over my tearful retina. I do hope your effort of successfully destroying all my hopes and dreams will not go without proper punishment, and will get you at least a few seasons of solitude in the losers forum. Jerk.