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Linguica

Things id got wrong

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ClumsyDoomer said:

- Same music tracks have different names (D_STALKS, D_STLKS2, D_STLKS3 for example)

I'm very glad for the way it is - otherwise there wouldn't be an easy way to add custom music different between maps that originally share the same MIDI in the IWAD. I would find it annoying if MAP02, MAP11 and MAP17 music always had to be the same track in all custom megawads ever made, plus all the other shared tracks.

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ClumsyDoomer said:

- Lost souls have too much health
- Damage randomizer (especially with berserk)
- Same music tracks have different names (D_STALKS, D_STLKS2, D_STLKS3 for example)


I feel like the SSG negates the common complaint about Lost Soul HP, and the different randomized values make Deathmatch a lot less repetitive.

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ClumsyDoomer said:

- Same music tracks have different names (D_STALKS, D_STLKS2, D_STLKS3 for example)

That's only a "wrong" thing if you want to make the WAD as compact as possible; but on the moddability standpoint it's a right.

Or they should have done like Raven did in Hexen and have a MAPINFO-like lump.


Which, to be honest, they should have.

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As for moddability, wasn't it possible to let the map author specify the music track in a map file or in MAPINFO-like lump? That would make the WADs smaller and keep them moddable.

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Mapinfo lumps weren't used in Vanilla Doom, but whoever was the first person to think of the idea was a freakin' genius. Makes defining map names and all that.. Oh, just so damn easy when compared to fucking around with Dehacked!

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Doomkid said:

I feel like the SSG negates the common complaint about Lost Soul HP, and the different randomized values make Deathmatch a lot less repetitive.



that's right. the randomizer is a great idea. it leads to scenes like killing a demon in one blow, then having to punch an imp 3 times, despite the demon having twice the hp. but overall it succeeds in making the game more unpredictable. doom had simple, but nevertheless effective solutions.

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ClumsyDoomer said:

As for moddability, wasn't it possible to let the map author specify the music track in a map file or in MAPINFO-like lump? That would make the WADs smaller and keep them moddable.


As I said, this didn't happen in the Doom engine until Hexen.

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scifista42 said:

I'm very glad for the way it is - otherwise there wouldn't be an easy way to add custom music different between maps that originally share the same MIDI in the IWAD. I would find it annoying if MAP02, MAP11 and MAP17 music always had to be the same track in all custom megawads ever made, plus all the other shared tracks.

Yeah. It's already a problem with Doom 1 megawads. For example, the very final boss level (E4M8) will always have the same calm music as the relatively early E2M5, no way to build suspense from music alone.

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I think the lack of a "Quick 180 Turn" was a small and forgivable oversight, something Duke Nukem 3D's design team noticed.

I think they should have kept one of the rifles and gave it a slower firing rate than the pump-action shotgun and kept it as an E2 weapon with the PR and BFG. Essentially it could have been a more concentrated version of the shotgun in terms of power, but tactically it would have been useful for picking off Demons at a distance but not being too powerful to make Cacodmons and Barons irrelevant.

The lack of a speed-boost power-up is odd considering how fast the Marine already moves, it would have been a good power-up for Doom II but I can see not having it in the original Doom.

The pre-release Lost Soul's hitscan attack would have made for an interesting enemy, I think, a hitscan flyer that is tough enough to handle a few blasts but not too tough to be frustrating in groups. I think it would have made more sense for Doom II than the original, though I suppose they could have worked as an E3-only enemy.

The lack of a 25% armor boost equivalent to the medikit puzzles me, you have a 1% bonus, 100% and 200%, nothing to give a small addition to your ratio without giving a full-on green or blue armor.

They should have made the spectre effect a tag instead of its own thing, so they could have selectively used different types of spectre-fied monsters. Imagine being ambushed by a spectre Cacodemon in E2M1 for example, you'd know you'd have to keep an eye out for the visible versions and invisible versions. I would have only used demon spectres in the Shareware and never tagged the zombies so that spectre Imps, Cacos and Barons, etc. were a full-game surprise.

The success of Deathmatch and Coop in Doom 1 should have lead id to add CTF to Ultimate Doom and Doom 2, IMO, but that isn't a huge deal, especially considering the open-source nature of Doom. Still would be nice to have Vanilla CTF, though.

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Naked Snake said:

The pre-release Lost Soul's hitscan attack would have made for an interesting enemy, I think, a hitscan flyer that is tough enough to handle a few blasts but not too tough to be frustrating in groups. I think it would have made more sense for Doom II than the original, though I suppose they could have worked as an E3-only enemy.

It's worth pointing out that the pre-release Lost Souls did not use a hitscan attack; rather, an infinite range melee check of sorts. If they have a direct line of sight with the victim, the attack always connects and cannot be obstructed by another thing. This effectively prohibits pre-release Lost Souls from starting infighting.

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BlueFeena said:

It's worth pointing out that the pre-release Lost Souls did not use a hitscan attack; rather, an infinite range melee check of sorts. If they have a direct line of sight with the victim, the attack always connects and cannot be obstructed by another thing. This effectively prohibits pre-release Lost Souls from starting infighting.


Ah, that's cool, that makes them even more dangerous than I realized. This behavior actually would make them quite a threat when combined with actual hitscan monsters like the Zombies and projectile-spewers like Imps, since they could float around, "charge up" their attack so they don't spam it, then release it and hit you, kind of like an archvile in a way.

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Naked Snake said:

Still would be nice to have Vanilla CTF, though.

CTF with 4 players would be a little dull.

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Linguica said:

CTF with 4 players would be a little dull.


I'm kind of retarded and forgot the max player limit was 4. I thought it was 8 on a LAN 4 over modem for some reason.

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Naked Snake said:

I suppose they could have worked as an E3-only enemy.

Or E4. Or at least some new content (other than maps) for E4.

That's something I feel id got wrong. There are no new resources to speak of for the add-on episode. A new enemy or boss would have been nice. How about some textures? No? Music then? No? A new intermission screen, a few map title graphics and a sky doesn't really cut it IMO. Hell, even putting one of the Doom2 monsters in somewhere might have been OK (the code was already there and they had the sprites and sounds already done). I think sticking a mancubus or two in near the end (or even a bunch of them as the final boss fight) might have worked. That could even be regarded as a prequel, of sorts, for map07 of Doom2.

Episode 4 was very disappointing in that regard IMO. By the time it came out, there were already loads of PWADs available that brought far more new things to the game than E4 did. I remember being very underwhelmed by the lack of new stuff in E4 the first time I played it. Perhaps that's why, even today, I still regard it as a cheap add on and not really part of the main game. The maps are technically proficient but, overall, the episode leaves me cold.

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I agree but IMO the biggest flaw of E4 is the order of the maps. The first two should've been put in the middle.

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Krazov said:

But intermission screen would be nice.

Yes, a proper map picture with locations like the other episodes would have been nice.

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Switch to the Fists and you'll see that Doomguy isn't wearing gloves "That's strange" Since he's showen like wearing them in almost every other weapon ...

Spoiler

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dethtoll said:

I always just figured he takes them off for those brass knuckles he's got.

With those doctor gloves ? Seriously .. why doesn't he just wear his brass knuckles over them ...

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dethtoll said:

Those gloves are pretty obviously leather or something. Not skin-tight medical gloves.

Since Doomguy is a Marine ,i Suppose normal Soldier gloves should help him out =3 ..

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Enjay said:

Or E4. Or at least some new content (other than maps) for E4.

That's something I feel id got wrong. There are no new resources to speak of for the add-on episode. A new enemy or boss would have been nice. How about some textures? No? Music then? No? A new intermission screen, a few map title graphics and a sky doesn't really cut it IMO. Hell, even putting one of the Doom2 monsters in somewhere might have been OK (the code was already there and they had the sprites and sounds already done). I think sticking a mancubus or two in near the end (or even a bunch of them as the final boss fight) might have worked. That could even be regarded as a prequel, of sorts, for map07 of Doom2.

Episode 4 was very disappointing in that regard IMO. By the time it came out, there were already loads of PWADs available that brought far more new things to the game than E4 did. I remember being very underwhelmed by the lack of new stuff in E4 the first time I played it. Perhaps that's why, even today, I still regard it as a cheap add on and not really part of the main game. The maps are technically proficient but, overall, the episode leaves me cold.


You know, you're right and I never really considered the fact that Ultimate Doom missed a big opportunity to add Doom II content to the original Doom as well as providing new content for the 4th episode.

Aside from the beta Lost Soul, I could see adding a miniature Cyberdemon enemy with weaker rockets, adding another enemy with splash damage projectiles. An enemy like that combined with the Doom II cast would have made a tough episode even tougher.

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Linguica said:

CTF with 4 players would be a little dull.


I have annual 4player LAN ctfs with my cousins, its always a lot of fun, particularly because were all playing in the same room. Online anonymity would be boring.

dethtoll said:

I agree but IMO the biggest flaw of E4 is the order of the maps. The first two should've been put in the middle.


I like those maps because y
they help stimulate the illusion from the very beginning that its going to be VERY hard without being Doom 2. Much like how E1M1 sticks shotgun guys everywhere on UV to display an obvious contrast in skill levels compared to many other maps in the same episode.

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DMGUYDZ64 said:

Switch to the Fists and you'll see that Doomguy isn't wearing gloves...

I always thought that was intentional for one, possibly two, reasons:

1) He has the knuckle duster on when punching instead of the gloves (Also, maybe he can't get it over the gloves? :P ).

2) Quite literally "the gloves are off" and this is going to be serious business.

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Naked Snake said:

You know, you're right and I never really considered the fact that Ultimate Doom missed a big opportunity to add Doom II content to the original Doom as well as providing new content for the 4th episode


They kinda did: there's an unused (?) flaming barrel sprite, a spawn cube sprite, and all of Doom II's codepointers, which means that Ultimate Doom maps could use all of Doom II's actions and DEH mods could even access the SSG slot (though I only know of one that does, The Quest For The Necronomicon.

boris said:

And if they really want to make money by selling engine licenses... they really suck at it. There's (according to the Wikipedia article) a whopping 6 games (including Doom 3) which use id Tech 4. There are more for id Tech 3, but it still pales in comparison the games using something like the Unreal Engine.


That's a fair point, if you only look from Doom 3 onwards. But don't forget how many Quake I/II/III licensed-engine games there were before that, particularly before competitors like Half Life and Unreal really took off and started displacing idTech engines as a prime choice for new AAA games. Their core business having lost steam to the competition is nothing new, but it's par for the course in the business.

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Maes said:

But don't forget how many Quake I/II/III licensed-engine games there were before that, particularly before competitors like Half Life and Unreal really took off and started displacing idTech engines as a prime choice for new AAA games. Their core business having lost steam to the competition is nothing new, but it's par for the course in the business.

Half-Life is derived from a combination of the Quake, Quake 2, and QuakeWorld engines. It is very much id tech; there's even a credit to "id Software technology" on the original WON disc.

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Krazov said:

Aesthetics of E4 compensate everything for me. But intermission screen would be nice.

Second. E4M6 is sometimes an arseache to navigate, but is also at least gorgeous to look at.

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