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scifista42

No Imps + No Keys Project - or better not

What do you think about the project?  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think about the project?

    • Good idea, I'm in.
      10
    • Bad idea, I'm in. ;)
      1
    • Good idea, but I'm not interested to be involved.
      10
    • Bad idea, get out.
      20
    • I'm not so sure about this, but I'll be interested to see how it eventually turns out.
      11


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You know what? Given the bad poll results, and the fact that there are many more interesting community projects currently around, let's cancel this. It would be better than yet another long-lasting sorrows and annoyance for everyone and specially the leader (me) involved in yet another random project.

If you (by any chance) have maps in progress and wanted to submit them, use them for another project - that should be absolutely no problem in this case. :)

I'm sorry.

ORIGINAL POST:

Let's make a community mapping project, consisting of (pretty please) serious maps with no keycards and no imps (and also no nazis) present.
Inspired by discussions in these two threads.
If you wish to contribute, please pay attention to the rules.


Rules:

1. No homages. That means, don't make tributes to particular room design in any IWADs or notable PWADs, because original design is valued here.

2. No slaughtermaps. Let's focus on classic gameplay here.

3. No trollmaps / jokemaps / other inserious maps, they won't be accepted. Please put an effort to make a good map.

4. Don't use any keycards OR skullkeys in your map, as well as no coloured trims (normal or skull), traditionally used to mark locked doors. Also, no imps and no nazis. You can use keens, but preferably so that they're not visible and cannot be heard (i.e. for some remote 666-tag special gimmicks), and be reasonable with them. I don't recommend using them at all.

5. Map for Doom 2, limit removing - that means a vanilla format without being bothered by VISPLANE/DRAWSEG/other engine limits.

6. Custom music allowed. Custom skies not allowed. Texture pack - stock D2 textures + d2text by NiGHTMARE (make sure you grabbed the fixed version)

7. Map difficulty: Casually challenging. Hard on UV, but still managable by a non-expert player (not necessarily on the first try). Pistol start compatible.

8. Map theme: Any.

9. Map length: At least medium-length.

10. Don't claim special map slots yet (MAP01, MAP07, MAP15, MAP30-32), those will be made in the end if we get enough maps. Don't assume your map to become MAP01 (or another special slot), make a map possibly fitting into any generic slot.


Project management rules:

1. Anyone can join and contribute a map.

2. There are no sign-ups for mappers. You become part of the project as soon as you post a map (even a map in progress).

3. Nobody claims map slots. Just post the map. The best maps will be released together in a pack and their order will be determined in the end.

4. Poor-quality maps might be rejected from the final release. Don't worry, together we will continuously do quality control, playtest maps and discuss / advise a possible improvement. If you submit a map, no changes will be done to it without your permission, but I expect your cooperation at (possibly) improving and polishing the map.

5. You can sign up as a playtester. Then, you are expected to post a feedback response about the submitted maps, right in this thread.


Playtesters:
scifista42


Mappers + maps:
joe-ilya - cpubase.wad


Get going!

P.S. Sorry for not providing screenshots or anything, I haven't mapped anything for this project yet. I create the project as a sort of "proof of concept", and to see if it can attract people and if I can manage it. I've set the rules to be "liberal", there are no deadlines, no time presses and no waiting for particular people to finish their maps. Contribute if you feel like it. Still, I'd like to see this going alive, whatever time it might get.

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I think this will result in a hilariously inconsistent set of levels due to each mapper coming up with their own trigger marking system.

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Well, you could argue that it adds variety ;) If I somehow find time I'd like to submit a map..

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Memfis said:

I think this will result in a hilariously inconsistent set of levels due to each mapper coming up with their own trigger marking system.

I'd think that would only become a problem if lots of distant switch-operated doors are used as a functional replacement for keys, which seems like it would be defeating the point of the exercise. There are lots of ways to use triggers to move progression along and allow access to new areas without needing key markers to do it.

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scifista42 said:

Poor-quality maps might be rejected from the final release


Might be? Why is it so hard on this forum to say you're gonna throw out bad maps? They're bad! They belong in the garbage.

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I can't see the appeal of this one, I'm afraid. The limitations don't compliment each other and neither seem likely to shake the foundations of an author's approach to level design. The removal of keys and key markers might cause some authors to rethink their approach in providing visual or audio cues for key objectives, but this seems scant reasoning around which to base an entire megawad. The removal of imps, likewise, might cause some to focus on creating more thoughtful encounters with lower monster counts, and to remove some of the more intermitting filler content that pads out non-threatening and lifeless combat between points of interest, but there are plenty of other lower-tier monsters to satisfy this trend and plenty of other ways to teach the designer more positive qualities in monster placement without removing a perfectly viable monster from the selection table.

A limitation project needs to reshape the designer's approach with the aim of either encouraging new qualities vital to good level design, or impressing the player with an ability to circumvent the difficulties imposed by the rule set. In other words, for fun! I'm not sure that either of these ideas will do these things, although I'd happily eat my own words/shoes/hat/duffel coat if they did.

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Agree with Alfonzo. Much like the 'let's do another TNT megawad', I also don't quite see the appeal here - too open-ended. I'm sure 90+% of the maps will just be normal maps, except with some slightly-more-obtuse switches instead of keys, and hitscanners/demons instead of imps.

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Perhaps it needs to be a little more refined. The main element that is taken away from a lack of keys nonlinearity - This should be called the "Linear Map Pack".

There will also be an emphasis on strategic placement of hitscan monsters, since there are no imps. The challenge is to place them in a way that is fun, difficult enough, but not frustrating.

My opinion is: This only needs to be refined slightly. It's nice that it's not trying to emulate the style of TNT or Plutonia or ID or whatever, but is rather hoping to achieve it's own style altogether.

The maps aughta have a very 'arcadey' feel to them!

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I don't see why an entirely new maps are needed to achieve "no keys/imps"

Just edit previous maps, and make the necessary adjustments.

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Alfonzo said:

A limitation project

I don't consider this to be a limitation project because you can literally make the exact same layout whether you use keys or not and have it behave exactly the same. And there are plenty of monsters to replace imps with, so it feels like a regular community project with a couple rules, which is cool and I might make a map for it.

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ToD and I seem to have the same interpretation of the rules but different reactions: seems to me like a fairly standard affair since the rules don't affect much, but in contrast, I don't really feel the urge to map for it. The premise isn't interesting enough to fire up the creative drive.

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Can't say I'm excited to play a map with no imps or keys. Seems an incidental detail rather than high concept. For example, the project I'm working on, I've made 7 levels so far and 3 of them have no keys, even 1 of the remaining 4 can be completed without picking up a key.

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So basically "Place S1 Door Open Stay where you would normally put a key" project.

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Alfonzo said:

The limitations don't compliment each other and neither seem likely to shake the foundations of an author's approach to level design. [...] A limitation project needs to reshape the designer's approach with the aim of either encouraging new qualities vital to good level design, or impressing the player with an ability to circumvent the difficulties imposed by the rule set.[/B]

Magnusblitz said:
Agree with Alfonzo. Much like the 'let's do another TNT megawad', I also don't quite see the appeal here - too open-ended.

purist said:
Seems an incidental detail rather than high concept.

I agree with these views, kind of. But I didn't want this to be a "high concept" or anything overthought like that. Just a wad idea to see how a couple of simple guidelines (while almost everything else is up to the mapper) can affect mapping, and how some possibly interesting maps can come out of it.

Memfis said:

I think this will result in a hilariously inconsistent set of levels due to each mapper coming up with their own trigger marking system.

Magnusblitz said:
I'm sure 90+% of the maps will just be normal maps, except with some slightly-more-obtuse switches instead of keys, and hitscanners/demons instead of imps.

Doomkid said:
The main element that is taken away from a lack of keys nonlinearity - This should be called the "Linear Map Pack".

xnv said:
So basically "Place S1 Door Open Stay where you would normally put a key" project.

No, I don't think your assumptions are right - they're just possibilities how to handle the limits. Everyone can come up with his own ideas how to do it, and that's a great thing. As I said, a LOT of freedom is left for the mapper.

Doomkid said:

Well, you could argue that it adds variety ;)

esselfortium said:
[B]There are lots of ways to use triggers to move progression along and allow access to new areas without needing key markers to do it.

This, exactly.

kraflab said:

Why is it so hard on this forum to say you're gonna throw out bad maps? They're bad! They belong in the garbage.

Alright. I meant to say that very bad maps will be rejected and moderately bad might be if the author refuses or cannot improve them. While at the same time, we'll all try to not let that happen, doing the playtesting etc.

yakfak said:

Why the hell can't we use nazis? =P

Because they don't fit in seriously-meant maps.

arkore said:

I don't see why an entirely new maps are needed to achieve "no keys/imps" Just edit previous maps, and make the necessary adjustments.

No way. Players (such as me) are tired of seeing ripoffs and homages and same-y places all over again in slight variations. Original content is always superior.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their views.

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Captain Toenail said:

Maybe it's just time for a standard boom format community megawad with some cool new textures?

Community Chest 5?

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Avoozl said:

No keys sounds somewhat boring to me.

On the contrary, "2-or-3-keycard progression all the time" sounds kinda boring to me.

By no slaughtermaps, I mean to avoid monster hordes and stuff like Ribbiks or Dannebubinga or Mouldy make, and instead to make the kind of gameplay such as in classic megawads, Community Chests, BTSX, maps by Memfis or Didi etc. Why :( ? The classic-like style(s) still have their fans, and some people despise slaughtermaps (or "don't prefer" them, like me).

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I've long thought that the idea of eliminating keys had legs - I like to progress through a level through affecting significant changes within it, rather than simply opening a previously locked door. I can appreciate its use in games like Keen and Wolf3d, since there were little to no real opportunities to dramatically alter the levels within those games, but id's carrying it over into DOOM, where there's the potential to create such opportunities, always a struck me as a bit dated, and something of a missed trick.
The 'locate key, unlock door' objective structure is, for me, somewhat tiresome, and I think it's a shame that it's so ingrained into the way we tend to approach mapping for DOOM.
So, as far as I'm concerned, this is a great project idea (although I would miss SGing imps), and I hope something comes of it - will follow with interest :)

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