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azrael1982

Azrael's second level - for Brutal Doom

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This feels like a well made 1995 map, mainly because of the texturing. It plays excellently without Brutal Doom, in case you were wondering. I would say don't change your style, since I personally love 90's-style maps, but that would be selfish. All I would really reccommend is that you work on your texturing and detail, and maybe widen a few halls here and there - The layout is fine as it is though, this is fun to play right til the exit.

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I think it got a bit too difficult in parts, which did get a bit annoying pretty fast...too many tight areas with too many enemies...the open bits were fun, but I didn't like being in the interiors very much at all. Maybe I'm just out of tune today.

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Doomkid said:

This feels like a well made 1995 map, mainly because of the texturing. It plays excellently without Brutal Doom, in case you were wondering. I would say don't change your style, since I personally love 90's-style maps, but that would be selfish.

I agree with this so damn much.

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I've only played the map without Brutal Doom. I agree that it feels extremely oldschool / 90's-like, and in a surprisingly good way. There are multiple factors making so: Messy texturing and detail usage, "stringy" parts of layout, cramped areas intersect with large ones, dense (while unorganized) thing placement at times, spam-spam-spam-your-front-side type of gameplay... There's probably more. You should be aware of them, but it's up to you whether you want to improve in those regards, or keep it as your style. This kind of style can be appealing to certain players (mainly oldschool lovers), but disgusting to others (mainly modern-day players).

I've enjoyed the map. It wasn't even that long as I've anticipated, seeing the monster count - that's good, long levels might easily get tedious, specially those oldschool-styled. There were stealth monsters which I personally hate, fortunately they were just demons (in a large area) -> okay. If there weren't wall textures used on floors and flats used on walls, this would have been a vanilla-compatible (limit-removing) map - as it is, it requires a ZDoom-based port to be played.

So, there's just one major advice I can give you - don't rely on Brutal Doom. Classic Doom is great for itself and its gameplay. ;)

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Well, whatever the naysayers of Brutal Doom may think, it is your free will and decision to make a map for Brutal Doom.

It seems a lot of maps, be they made for Brutal Doom or Normal Doom, they tend to work both ways regardless...so I find the divide between the two play styles rather pointless...just pick one and play! So if on the odd occasion a map doesn't work well with or without it, you'll get over it it won't kill you.....will it?

That being said, I went back to your map and played it again. I have tried and finished it with Brutal Doom and without it and I can say this is one of those maps that works well with it or without it. I stuck with it and have gained more appreciation for it, although I still don't like some of the small areas still, the over all map is fun to play. It is nice and challenging and visually yeah, pleasant and rather good looking.

I have made some videos of me playing your maps just for the comparison, I will upload them and link them later....but spoiler them so people don't have to see. Also please excuse the "unprofessional" nature of my videos...YouTube is just for fun for me.

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As others have said, it feels very old-school, in a good way. Yeah, the texturing and general design is a little odd, but hey, this is Doom. Gameplay is medium-hard for me without Brutal Doom. With Brutal Doom it's almost impossible (at least for me), given the abundance of hitscanners and imps (which tend to be far more dangerous with the mod), but I'm sure it can be done. By the way, I noticed a little bug: the first two arachnotrons are stuck, and present no danger to the player, and the one before the exit seem to be stuck on a mancubus, but I'm not sure about that. Good work. Oh, and I didn't find the secret.

Xegethra said:

Well, whatever the naysayers of Brutal Doom may think, it is your free will and decision to make a map for Brutal Doom.

It seems a lot of maps, be they made for Brutal Doom or Normal Doom, they tend to work both ways regardless...so I find the divide between the two play styles rather pointless...just pick one and play! So if on the odd occasion a map doesn't work well with or without it, you'll get over it it won't kill you.....will it?


While I agree with the fact that he's free to map for whatever port/mod he wants, this map is a great example of how gameplay differs vastly with the mod. I don't have anything against BD, but designing a map like if it was the only mod out there may not be the best idea (what if someone wants to play it with Beautiful Doom, Bad Guns, Aeons of Death, Zen Dynamics... you get the point).

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Well you can't cater a map for all mods really, but if you have one in mind whatever it is there is still nothing wrong with trying to make a map compatible with that particular mod.

Not everything is compatible with everything, never has been never will be....

But still I haven't tried out a vast majority of mods, but in the case of Brutal Doom I find it works well with most maps...not all of course but most. If there are other mods that this map can work well with then there is nothing stopping any player from loading up that mod with it and having a look. It's not massively heart breaking if it doesn't work with such and such mod, if a player must use mods then find the best one for it I guess.

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I agree with that, but my point is precisely that it's better to design with vanilla/limit-removing in mind, because that way it will almost certainly work decently with Brutal Doom AND other mods as well, giving the wad a chance to reach a wider audience. Now, curiously that doesn't seem to affect this particular wad really (I tried it with Beautiful Doom + Bad Guns and it works great, for example).

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Thank you very much for ALL your comments, they are extremely valuable for me. Next time I will include tags "oldschool" and "90's" in my prospective level description (or something alike). Moreover I shall pay more attention to detail and rooms' architechture, though I don't want to change my style in a profound way. It's a matter of nostalgia - a matter of having played Doom, when I was barely a teenager. Thank you for the bugs' report, I will look into it, however, the archs seemed to work ok with me (port ?). Just one secret, it's easy to find it. :)

Regarding Brutal Doom, I can clearly see, that some people either love it or hate it, perhaps due its excessive gore, even for Doom fans, and it's quite bugged (after playing several hours, you can easily state that). On the other hand, believe it or not, it's what's made me come back to Doom in general. I like the sheer gameplay of it. Nonetheless maybe I ought to reconsider making levels for one port only, as the target group might turn out to be much smaller than I could foresee in the near future....

Then I reckon, that I should rely on testers - do you always send your maps to someone else for testing before the final release ?

Xegethra, I'm looking forward to seeing your video. Please let me know, when you manage to upload it.

What else can I say ? Ah, I want to play your (all users) maps too, so I will check them soon (hopefully) and learn from much more experienced mappers. :)

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you could always make a vanilla/limit-removing level, then make a different version of the level optimized for Brutal Doom, perhaps. that way, you can still make levels for Brutal Doom to be played with, and those who don't want to can play the other version instead. i dunno if that could be painful to do or not, though, since you're essentially balancing a level for two different types of playthrough.

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Zed said:

I agree with that, but my point is precisely that it's better to design with vanilla/limit-removing in mind, because that way it will almost certainly work decently with Brutal Doom AND other mods as well, giving the wad a chance to reach a wider audience. Now, curiously that doesn't seem to affect this particular wad really (I tried it with Beautiful Doom + Bad Guns and it works great, for example).


Haha, as long as it works out in the end!

When I made my maps, I had no mods in mind for it...I just made maps, I suppose this is the best way to make them as they will have a higher chance to be compatible with different mods, as the nature of the mods is to modify the original game. So you are right there.

Maps and mods seem to be quite versatile anyway, so it's relatively easy to play one way, then another time to play another way.

Which is why I never understood why some people get so offended by someone wanting them to use a mod for their maps, they are often flexible enough to either use another mod or no mods at all.

azrael1982 said:

Thank you very much for ALL your comments, they are extremely valuable for me. Next time I will include tags "oldschool" and "90's" in my prospective level description (or something alike). Moreover I shall pay more attention to detail and rooms' architechture, though I don't want to change my style in a profound way. It's a matter of nostalgia - a matter of having played Doom, when I was barely a teenager. Thank you for the bugs' report, I will look into it, however, the archs seemed to work ok with me (port ?). Just one secret, it's easy to find it. :)

Regarding Brutal Doom, I can clearly see, that some people either love it or hate it, perhaps due its excessive gore, even for Doom fans, and it's quite bugged (after playing several hours, you can easily state that). On the other hand, believe it or not, it's what's made me come back to Doom in general. I like the sheer gameplay of it. Nonetheless maybe I ought to reconsider making levels for one port only, as the target group might turn out to be much smaller than I could foresee in the near future....

Then I reckon, that I should rely on testers - do you always send your maps to someone else for testing before the final release ?

Xegethra, I'm looking forward to seeing your video. Please let me know, when you manage to upload it.

What else can I say ? Ah, I want to play your (all users) maps too, so I will check them soon (hopefully) and learn from much more experienced mappers. :)


Yeah I'm uploading them now, internet is a bit slow at the moment as I live in a bad area for it...but should be quite soon.

When I make my maps, I just put them on these forums and get my friends to play them. It doesn't seem to hurt anybody so it's the way I do it.


*Edit*

Spoiler

Got the videos uploaded, I'm not the best Doom player so I don't power through the level or anything like that...far from expert. But here the videos are anyway.

With Brutal Doom
Part 1
Part 2

Without Brutal Doom
Part 1
Part 2

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Xegethra, thank you very much for your effort, your longplays are great. I've watched all 4 videos devoted to my map and it's very helpful for me.

Some bugs to be addressed:

1. Door before you reach the room with mancu and 4 barrels
2. Texture alignment - I have to learn something more about aligning ceillings/floors, as it's beyond me and don't quite get it, why I cannot align them in a "simple way".

Besides, after watching your videos, some textures (especially outdoors) seem to be bland to me. However, this sort of problem will be addressed on the next occasion, when I manage to release yet another map (I've got some ideas on my mind). Then I will try to make rooms more spatial, so that, hopefully, the gameplay will be even more satisfying.

Do you always/often draw the outline of your level on paper ?

Still no one has discovered my secret, it seems. :P

Edit:

I'm also a little bit confused by the lighting issue. In the openGL mode, everything looks completely different, which is, not surprisingly, understandable....

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Yeah over all it was quite fun. I may have diabeticed all over it and gotten confused in some areas, but that's on my end..the map itself was enjoyable on the whole.

When I make maps I never draw it out..I just make it. Changes get made as ideas change. I just have an idea in my mind and I try to translate it in the builder, often I have failed horribly but yeah that happens.

I have had ideas when I'm not anywhere Doom or my PC and I try to remember them when I get back, but I never found it necessary to write out a map before making it...other people may work differently and really that's cool, as long as they can make a map they are happy with and can be open to learn stuff.

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