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Infirnex

Hatred - Is there a line that can be crossed?

Does Hatred take violence in games too far?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Does Hatred take violence in games too far?

    • Yes, it does go beyond what is acceptable.
      17
    • No, it is fine for what is considered fine.
      19
    • I don't really care, honestly.
      51
    • Impse 1
      9
    • Impse 2
      9


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Brace yourself for a wave of blog posts defending Valve's right as a store to act as they wish for any reason.

Where's the Micro$oft craze now? Oh right, Google and Apple and Facebook taught an entire new generation there is no such thing as abuse of a dominant position.

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Slap on the sticker ; rated R (18+), Problem solved. if a kid plays 18+ games then it is the parents fault when their kid cant handle it... This world is going overboard with this entire 'kid this, kids that' ordeal. And those politically correct idiots can suck it.

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Valve are privately held, they can do whatever they want. But this decision seems to be more based in the 'controversy' than anything else. Can't help thinking that if there was no negative backlash against this game, they would let it onto Steam without second thoughts.

And like people say, this raises questions on what exactly is acceptable on Steam. Valve's statement explains nothing. "Based on what we've SEEN". You've seen people being shot and stabbed. Sure, there are no other games like that!

Also, it really annoys me that everyone calls this game 'ultraviolent'. Have you ever seen an 'ultraviolent' game? There isn't even any gore other than a head being blown off by a shotgun (which btw appears in almost every action game). It's so stupid. When you have a game where you MUTILATE the 'bad guys' in the most gruesome and bloody ways, it's video game violence. But a game where you SHOOT civilians? Ultraviolent! Disgusting! Crosses the line!

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Oh wow.

First, iPad release of Papers, Please gets censoring because "pornography." (It was meant to be +17, if I remember it correctly.)

And now, Hatred gets pulled out from greenlight, because...

“Based on what we’ve seen on Greenlight we would not publish Hatred on Steam. As such we’ll be taking it down.”

Nice. Does that mean Manhunt or Postal is going to be removed?

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Not releasing this game is just censorship. Not like the dev threatened to kill King Gaben. I like how Valve called itself a publisher in the press release.

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Not shocked about this getting removed, it is all one big PR move because Steam would receive a shit load of negative attention for letting this "murder simulator" onto its store (especially in today's world of wannabe Jack Thompson "Violence in video games causes people to commit such and such unproven and unrelated acts of violence and/or crime" style approach).

And Steam (Well, most businesses actually) are too big of a wuss to step out of the "norm" and do something that might hurt their bottom line.

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CorSair said:

Nice. Does that mean Manhunt or Postal is going to be removed?

You know what, with the way censorship is going right now I wouldn't doubt them getting pulled.

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doomgargoyle said:

Still a swedish fat fuck man child. And a rippoff.



Dear Esther did it before, and did it better. GH was just a walking simulator.


You have it backward. Dear Esther literally just walked and climbed. Gone Home at least had things to collect and unlock.

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mrthejoshmon said:

You know what, with the way censorship is going right now I wouldn't doubt them getting pulled.

I'm not too worried about Postal being taken down, as it's already gotten on there via Greenlight, continues to remain on the service, and there have been no known threats by Valve to take it down. Not only that, but there is a new expansion pack for Postal 2 currently in development and it hasn't faced any heat from Valve yet either.

Valve are just being inconsistent and hypocritical. I think Postal 2's lighter tone and presentation probably helps avoiding the same kind of scrutiny that Hatred got.

geo said:

Not releasing this game is just censorship...I like how Valve called itself a publisher in the press release.

It is not censorship, the devs are free to go elsewhere. And yes, they are a publisher, one that happens to be allowed to choose who they do business with just like all other private businesses. I don't agree with this particular move, but I have no delusions that they were somehow obligated to act otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I think what they're doing is irresponsible and the part I hate most is how vague they are beyond "it offends us".

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FireFish said:

Slap on the sticker ; rated R (18+), Problem solved. if a kid plays 18+ games then it is the parents fault when their kid cant handle it... This world is going overboard with this entire 'kid this, kids that' ordeal. And those politically correct idiots can suck it.


say what you will about parental supervision, but think about it. If a 12 year old starts smoking cigarettes, 99% of the time it wasn't the parents fueling their addiction by buying it for them. Is it the parents fault for not sheltering their kids from the public? Mature rated 17+ games are the worst because the last 15 years or so showed they are obviously marketed toward tweens. TV shows have constantly repeated the joke of the adult playing Xbox live and getting angry at an 11 year old who is kicking their ass. Why else would these games be so easily accessible to anyone, and require no brainpower to solve the single player campaigns and constantly be directed where to go and what to do?

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Sodaholic said:

I'm not too worried about Postal being taken down, as it's already gotten on there via Greenlight, continues to remain on the service, and there have been no known threats by Valve to take it down. Not only that, but there is a new expansion pack for Postal 2 currently in development and it hasn't faced any heat from Valve yet either.

Valve are just being inconsistent and hypocritical. I think Postal 2's lighter tone and presentation probably helps avoiding the same kind of scrutiny that Hatred got.

Huh, as much as I want to inquire about that expansion I already know that they really can't say much before its release (dev secrecy and the like).

Now that I think about it, games like Postal will not get pulled like Hatred because they are "old timers". Hatred was "the new kid on the block" and nobody has played it and actually know what it is like, it hasn't been around for too long so they can just pull it right ahead. Postal on the other hand has been around for a long time and people have gotten used to it and such so it couldn't possibly be pulled.

Same with Manhunt I guess.

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Sodaholic said:

I'm not too worried about Postal being taken down, as it's already gotten on there via Greenlight, continues to remain on the service, and there have been no known threats by Valve to take it down. Not only that, but there is a new expansion pack for Postal 2 currently in development and it hasn't faced any heat from Valve yet either.

Valve are just being inconsistent and hypocritical. I think Postal 2's lighter tone and presentation probably helps avoiding the same kind of scrutiny that Hatred got.

It is not censorship, the devs are free to go elsewhere. And yes, they are a publisher, one that happens to be allowed to choose who they do business with just like all other private businesses. I don't agree with this particular move, but I have no delusions that they were somehow obligated to act otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I think what they're doing is irresponsible and the part I hate most is how vague they are beyond "it offends us".


So if Valve is a publisher, are there indie games anymore? To truly be indie they need to have their own website like Minecraft and distribute on there?

One of my friends on Steam said its bullying the little guy for what the big guys are guilty of.

I also wonder if this has anything to do with Unreal not supporting Hatred as well. Unreal wanted them to not show their logo even if it uses their engine. Steam can really do what the fuck they want. No one has power over Steam (until Origin overtakes it). It says a lot that they'd chose this game.

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40oz said:

say what you will about parental supervision, but think about it. If a 12 year old starts smoking cigarettes, 99% of the time it wasn't the parents fueling their addiction by buying it for them. Is it the parents fault for not sheltering their kids from the public? Mature rated 17+ games are the worst because the last 15 years or so showed they are obviously marketed toward tweens. TV shows have constantly repeated the joke of the adult playing Xbox live and getting angry at an 11 year old who is kicking their ass. Why else would these games be so easily accessible to anyone, and require no brainpower to solve the single player campaigns and constantly be directed where to go and what to do?


Playing TF2 expert MVM this weekend for the first time in 3 years. Kids with mics. Everywhere. Kids that didn't sound more than 7. Not that they were good, but their voices are just so high pitched. I had to mute them all. They were exceptionally awful. They had no logic or tactics.

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mrthejoshmon said:

Huh, as much as I want to inquire about that expansion I already know that they really can't say much before its release (dev secrecy and the like).

While I am bound by an NDA and thus cannot divulge private info, I can still direct you to public info about it. Here's the trailer:



It's safe to say that if you like P2 and/or AW that you'll like this one too. Note that the release date on the trailer is incorrect as we've delayed it til early 2015.

mrthejoshmon said:

Now that I think about it, games like Postal will not get pulled like Hatred because they are "old timers". Hatred was "the new kid on the block" and nobody has played it and actually know what it is like, it hasn't been around for too long so they can just pull it right ahead. Postal on the other hand has been around for a long time and people have gotten used to it and such so it couldn't possibly be pulled.

Same with Manhunt I guess.

Yeah, that too. All I know is that Postal is probably safe from their wrath. I also think they'd rather avoid pulling it to avoid the bad PR of "why the hell did you remove what you already cleared for release?". At least with Hatred, Valve can't pull a rug out from under the devs feet that was never given to them to stand upon in the first place.

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I hate adhering to NDAs. There's so much I want to talk about :-( Not about this, but other things. Often times I'll write out long blogs about things. Then delete them and leave the page. That way it gets out of my system. Like a diary that I burn the page.

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It is not censorship, the devs are free to go elsewhere.


Censorship doesn't have to be universal or even widespread to be qualified as such. If I made a blog, and you were my only reader, and you posted a comment that I deleted, it would still be censorship.

Steam is bigger than my hypothetical blog. They have an near monopoly on digital distribution of video games. Their refusal to sell Hatred differs in comparison to, say, their refusal to sell any porn game at all, because they're singling out a specific product. It arguably gives direct competitors in the same niche such as Postal, GTA, Hotline Miami and others an unfair advantage, in violation of some antitrust laws.

Not that this has stopped Valve in the past, again this has been an increasing trend in recent years with other much bigger fishes. Still, it's one thing to recognize those abuse of powers are happening, it's another to believe those are legitimate business practices.

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40oz said:

say what you will about parental supervision, but think about it. If a 12 year old starts smoking cigarettes, 99% of the time it wasn't the parents fueling their addiction by buying it for them. Is it the parents fault for not sheltering their kids from the public? Mature rated 17+ games are the worst because the last 15 years or so showed they are obviously marketed toward tweens. TV shows have constantly repeated the joke of the adult playing Xbox live and getting angry at an 11 year old who is kicking their ass. Why else would these games be so easily accessible to anyone, and require no brainpower to solve the single player campaigns and constantly be directed where to go and what to do?


Parents are supposed to keep kids away from 'to' adult materials, an 11 and 12 year old child is supposed to play things like pokemon, mario, and funny flash games while getting introduced to shows comparable to Dragonball z its content. At those ages they are naive kids and those three extra years until they are 14 or 15 are a big deal towards their mindset. It is not because it is 2014 that children magically became adults with super intelligence for which every possible piece of parenting is in conflict with 'the rights of a child'.

The no brainpower with giant arrows part is just meant to help any type of gamer they can reach, if you look at dev. diaries, the developers usually refer to 'the player' and not 'an 11 year old child' when designing everything.

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Phml said:

It arguably gives direct competitors in the same niche such as Postal, GTA, Hotline Miami and others an unfair advantage, in violation of some antitrust laws..


None of those are comparable to Hatred.

Phml said:

Not that this has stopped Valve in the past, again this has been an increasing trend in recent years with other much bigger fishes. Still, it's one thing to recognize those abuse of powers are happening, it's another to believe those are legitimate business practices.


They are legitimate business practices. It's not illegal to kick something off of your service.

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40oz said:

say what you will about parental supervision, but think about it. If a 12 year old starts smoking cigarettes, 99% of the time it wasn't the parents fueling their addiction by buying it for them. Is it the parents fault for not sheltering their kids from the public? Mature rated 17+ games are the worst because the last 15 years or so showed they are obviously marketed toward tweens. TV shows have constantly repeated the joke of the adult playing Xbox live and getting angry at an 11 year old who is kicking their ass. Why else would these games be so easily accessible to anyone, and require no brainpower to solve the single player campaigns and constantly be directed where to go and what to do?

They are not easily accessible for kids, they either have to obtain their parents credit card to purchase a digital download or find a store clerk to unlock the game case then get ID'd at the counter. This is one of those examples where everyone gets smacked by retarded controversy that makes people quit thinking about the hurdles a child has to go through to get an M rated game. This type of controversy gives shit parents excuse not to watch their children and if their kid does obtain an M rated game, "Welp.... It's not our fault. Wtf you want us to do? Shelter our kids from life? MOAR LAWSUITS!"

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Maybe its been taken down to protect all the goths and death metalers that will take flack for being like the protagonist.

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Technician said:

image


Sorry but I agree with critics of hatred. Context DOES matter. Even if you are a murderer who can go around killing everyone in GTA it's not really the main point of the game. And even if it were it's presented in a manner that is so comical that it can't really be taken all that seriously.

Also, Ctrl-Alt-Delete is still alive?

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Flesh420 said:

They are not easily accessible for kids, they either have to obtain their parents credit card to purchase a digital download or find a store clerk to unlock the game case then get ID'd at the counter. This is one of those examples where everyone gets smacked by retarded controversy that makes people quit thinking about the hurdles a child has to go through to get an M rated game. This type of controversy gives shit parents excuse not to watch their children and if their kid does obtain an M rated game, "Welp.... It's not our fault. Wtf you want us to do? Shelter our kids from life? MOAR LAWSUITS!"


youre right those are the absolute only ways to get access to a game. Its ridiculously impossible to meet someone who has the game and they let you play it, or the game is shared or gifted to you by someone who is not your mom and dad.

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Still don't know what the difference is between this and (the first) Postal. Or how it's different from a film like, say, Rampage. If you don't like what its about, don't play it. Don't let your kids play it--and if you're going that route, explain to them why you don't want them to play it (you all probably know as well as I do that kids will rebel harder the more strict you are--being reasonable about it helps a lot).

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Nomad said:

Still don't know what the difference is between this and (the first) Postal. Or how it's different from a film like, say, Rampage. If you don't like what its about, don't play it. Don't let your kids play it--and if you're going that route, explain to them why you don't want them to play it (you all probably know as well as I do that kids will rebel harder the more strict you are--being reasonable about it helps a lot).


The only difference is in Postal 1 you are only required to kill the law enforcement, otherwise it's pretty much the same concept.

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Cyanosis said:

The only difference is in Postal 1 you are only required to kill the law enforcement, otherwise it's pretty much the same concept.

That and Postal Dude's one-liners. Some of them were better than Duke's.

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