Blasphemer discussion

[Craneo]

20 hours ago, GeorgePieVG said:

The stuff from Hell Forged is actually under the CC BY SA license. It's a libre license, however it has more terms and conditions than the current Blasphemer license, so I'm not sure if Blasphemer can incorporate graphics from there. Maybe it would be better to get the sword from Demon Eclipse? Amuscaria has given permission to use resources from there in Freedoom and Blasphemer.

aigh, I'll edit the DE sword instead then, assuming it has the same kinda frames as the one in HF... maybe some day I'll make my own replacement for the staff, so then we can use that instead maybe.
EDIT: are the hands holding the sword in DEclipse just DoomGuy's? I mean, I think I can edit that out, I'm just not sure how usable they are license-wise based enterily on the hands, a handless version would be useful idk, atleast the Hellforged one clearly has original hands (only problem being the licensing not matching), it's also hard to tell how many stuff from the DEclipse wad you posted is usable as a lot of Id and Raven assets are present too (ex: HBAL, I'm sure it's from Hexen's bloodscourge or another monster)

Edited July 17 by Craneo

[GeorgePieVG]

1 hour ago, Craneo said:

aigh, I'll edit the DE sword instead then, assuming it has the same kinda frames as the one in HF... maybe some day I'll make my own replacement for the staff, so then we can use that instead maybe.
EDIT: are the hands holding the sword in DEclipse just DoomGuy's? I mean, I think I can edit that out, I'm just not sure how usable they are license-wise based enterily on the hands, a handless version would be useful idk, atleast the Hellforged one clearly has original hands (only problem being the licensing not matching), it's also hard to tell how many stuff from the DEclipse wad you posted is usable as a lot of Id and Raven assets are present too (ex: HBAL, I'm sure it's from Hexen's bloodscourge or another monster)

I think it's fine. It's just a hand, it's drawn from scratch and it's not even hairy. Freedoom had something similar in earlier versions until the completely original guns were drawn. Though it would be cool to have a more gothic hand design, like a black glove or a deformed and bony one. Regarding the assets, Hell Forged also has sprites taken from proprietary games.

[Craneo]

Spoiler

how's this?

[GeorgePieVG]

18 minutes ago, Craneo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

how's this?

Looks great!

[AntonR]

The punch dagger is getting replaced? now I need to do new sounds again!

 

[Craneo]

it was already replaced with the sword from Hellforged in Catoptromancy's github fork, but since the licensing conflicts a bit and we can use DEclipse assets freely,I changed it for that one instead, with hands edited to match the first person player, too.

also, just made a gargoyle prop since Catoptromancy didn't want to use the NMN one due to again conflicting license (as apparently all CC0 assets are placeholders until stuff is made specifically for Blasphem, also cuz the skeleton gnome gargoyle looks too goofy to me.)

[Cacowad]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:59 PM, MrFlibble said:

It's licensed under CC-BY-3.0 though, which I'm not sure if it is a compatible license? Can this be used in Blasphemer?

 

TL;DR: Yes, it is compatible. No, it was not used as original art and CC0 art was preferred.

 

Now, as a disclaimer, i'm not a lawyer. Take my words with a grain of salt.

 

As far i i could research, licenses compatibility go from stricter to broader. For Blasphemer, as example, you cannot use a piece of work \ software that have a license that do NOT allow for commercial use ( CC-NC ), but you can use any that allow it (CC-BY, CC-BY-SA).

 

In the years i've watched over this project, there was a substantial amount of confusion about licenses: the main license for Blasphemer is a classic BSD-3-clause, but it is a SOFTWARE license made for open source binary redistribution.
You could argue that a .wad is a binary distribution; but it could be very well argued that is, in fact, no more that a glorified .zip archive...

 

Licensing for art is a bit different, as it use a more fitting licensing system. One of the more popular is the CC one (Creative Commons licenses), wich allow for far more greater "control" on how the resources you create could be used (or reused \ modified).

 

Everyone who gave his\her free time to work on Blasphemer was already fully credited for its work, so we could argue that the project is compliant to the CC-BY license.

In addition, the BSD-3 license require that any derivative work is shared under the same license, so we could argue that the porject is compliant to the CC-SA license.

By this line of reasoning, the resulting license for Blasphemer should be CC-BY-SA, so any work that abide by that license could be allowed:

• CC0 enables reusers to distribute, remix, adapt, and build upon the material in any medium or format, with no conditions.
• BY: credit must be given to the creator.
• SA: Adaptations must be shared under the same terms.

That's all, as far as i understand it.

 

On 7/8/2024 at 7:24 PM, june gloom said:

Give Blasphemous Experiments a try. It gets hard as nails but it's doable. I would also recommend Chris Lutz' Icebound, which is probably the best Heretic level I've ever played.

 

Oh hey, that's me!

 

[GeorgePieVG]

Just resolved conflicts in several pull requests, they can be merged just fine. Closed all the others and uploaded everything worthy to this archive. I also added nightshade from demon eclipse here, which could replace disciple of dsparil.

blasphemgoodies.zip

[GeorgePieVG]

1 hour ago, Cacowad said:

In addition, the BSD-3 license require that any derivative work is shared under the same license, so we could argue that the porject is compliant to the CC-SA license.

Actually, no. You just have to credit the authors and add the BSD license itself to the credits, but you can use any other license for derivative works.

[Craneo]

32 minutes ago, GeorgePieVG said:

Just resolved conflicts in several pull requests, they can be merged just fine. Closed all the others and uploaded everything worthy to this archive. I also added nightshade from demon eclipse here, which could replace disciple of dsparil.

blasphemgoodies.zip

I think the Nightshade should have colors more similar to the projectile it shoots personally (his projectiles are blue), which also one thing I didn't like of the current NMN Grell having a green mouth when attacking but blue projectiles, I may do some edits to the Nightshade, since I kinda like the idea of a wraith-esque creature as the disciple, I'll see...

[GeorgePieVG]

4 minutes ago, Craneo said:

I think the Nightshade should have colors more similar to the projectile it shoots personally (his projectiles are blue), which also one thing I didn't like of the current NMN Grell having a green mouth when attacking but blue projectiles, I may do some edits to the Nightshade, since I kinda like the idea of a wraith-esque creature as the disciple, I'll see...

I agree, I also think the projectile itself needs improvement.

[Craneo]

here are some of the tweaks: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bJVS7EX_7H0JmiAQxQlX0AjVAuAUimDP/view?usp=sharing
comes in both original colors and more ghost-like, projectile-accurate colors.

[GeorgePieVG]

39 minutes ago, Craneo said:

here are some of the tweaks: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bJVS7EX_7H0JmiAQxQlX0AjVAuAUimDP/view?usp=sharing
comes in both original colors and more ghost-like, projectile-accurate colors.

Looks good in the game. I like the green, ectoplasm-like version.

[MrFlibble]

On 7/16/2024 at 1:47 PM, Craneo said:

Would you guys be ok if the current stone demon statue was replaced with the gargoyle NMN made?

The new gargoyle looks good, but to be very honest, I appreciate the original one as well, if only because it was created specifically for Blasphemer (AFAIK).

On 7/17/2024 at 2:58 AM, GeorgePieVG said:

The stuff from Hell Forged is actually under the CC BY SA license.

Aww, yes, you're right! Somehow I misremembered the license details -- sorry! I'll fix that in my previous post ASAP so as not to spread false information further.

On 7/17/2024 at 2:58 AM, GeorgePieVG said:

Maybe it would be better to get the sword from Demon Eclipse? Amuscaria has given permission to use resources from there in Freedoom and Blasphemer.

Thank you for the link to the file! I was recently trying to locate @Amuscaria's archive which was donated to Freed∞m, but only found this topic with the dead link, and an older Demon Eclipse package that contains different versions of many art, including weapons.

 

Anyway, the rotating skulls that I used for the Blasphemer menu animation are in the new DE package so they should be usable for the project anyway.

[GeorgePieVG]

Replaced some projectile placeholders with nicer ones from the LibTech1 project, a fork of Freedoom. Also here is 1 patch based on jute's unfinished disciple replacement, new armor sprites (first from ShatterEarth mod by @Cascade (sprite reuse is allowed with credit), second from Demon Eclipse) and new sprites for quartz flask from the recent pull request for freedoom.

blasprojectiles.zip

[AntonR]

Reminds me of the projectiles I made for the vampire projectiles according to that concept art a while back, the basic one could have an animation but I didn't yet make one

sprites_vampire_projectiles.zip

[Craneo]

9 hours ago, GeorgePieVG said:

new armor sprites (first from ShatterEarth mod by @Cascade (sprite reuse is allowed with credit), second from Demon Eclipse)

aww, I kinda like the current armors tho...
 

9 hours ago, GeorgePieVG said:

Replaced some projectile placeholders with nicer ones from the LibTech1 project, a fork of Freedoom. Also here is 1 patch based on jute's unfinished disciple replacement

I'll tweak some of that stuff if it gets added, that dead body looks a bit rough imho, and the back sprites for the projectile look too noisy

[GeorgePieVG]

Here's the source of that dead body sprite

[Craneo]

something lol
want to update the SAINT and HORSE textures and also make a new Disciple called "Geist"
my general idea is to replace the hooded figure in the middle with the current final boss and remake the
knights on the side, as they would be implied to be a sort of knight order that fought not-Dsparil in the past
and vanquished him, only for him to come back years later and enslave their souls or something

really need to learn how to animate and render these with rotations and stuff...

[MrFlibble]

On 7/16/2024 at 5:30 PM, SecularSteve said:

If you're open to someone making some new title-screen art, and placeholders, I'd be happy to oblige.

 

That is, if you have nothing against it.

I really have no more say in this than anyone else. I just wanted to correct the aspect ratio of the logo on the title screen, and added a background from a skybox for the lack of any artistic skills. Would be nice to have some nice title screen art instead, so if you're willing to give it a try, please go ahead!

9 hours ago, Craneo said:

aww, I kinda like the current armors tho...

The old armour looks kinda cool, but it's for a knight or something, while the protagonist here is more of mage or warlock (?). I was going to suggest a change as well, and I would actually argue that a helmet perhaps would be a better choice for the armour pickup appearance than a cuirass or other kind of body suit. (I also don't think that the original Heretic's shield was a good choice, but at least its appearance telegraphed the notion of "armour" well).

[GeorgePieVG]

Made a new sky for Blasphemer. It's based on a NASA photo (should be public domain) and the mountains from the old SKY3. I think it will work best for episode 3 and if so, then the current SKY3 should be moved to episode 2.

[Craneo]

idk, the mountains in the old sky3 are the main reason I wanted to see them changed, their shape is cool sure, but they look too pixel art-y compared to the mountains in sky1 and 2, that's why the photo-based sky3 I did felt fitting to me

[GeorgePieVG]

48 minutes ago, Craneo said:

idk, the mountains in the old sky3 are the main reason I wanted to see them changed, their shape is cool sure, but they look too pixel art-y compared to the mountains in sky1 and 2, that's why the photo-based sky3 I did felt fitting to me

Fair enough. In that case, it's worth replacing the mountains. Here's the version without the mountains, if anyone finds it useful.

[MrFlibble]

I actually like the pixel art mountains, but oh well.

 

BTW, anyone else think that the fonts could be replaced with something more readable? I wanted to suggest the retired menu font from LibreQuake, but it has upper- and lowercase letters like Doom, unlike Heretic.

Speaking of the gargoyle, I was trying to remember what the actual Heretic sprite looked like, and apparently it is not a gargoyle at all, but some kind of small pillar (which I guess what SMPL stands for):

The simplest solution, if only a placeholder, would be to reuse a similar pillar from Freed∞m, by @Cascade (IIRC). I just put together a very quick palswap/recolour (and reduced its height by 3 pixels to match the dimensions of the original thing):

The gargoyle would be a cool (and much needed) addition to Zauberer though.

[Craneo]

19 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

Speaking of the gargoyle, I was trying to remember what the actual Heretic sprite looked like, and apparently it is not a gargoyle at all, but some kind of small pillar (which I guess what SMPL stands for):

The simplest solution, if only a placeholder, would be to reuse a similar pillar from Freed∞m, by @Cascade (IIRC). I just put together a very quick palswap/recolour (and reduced its height by 3 pixels to match the dimensions of the original thing):

The gargoyle would be a cool (and much needed) addition to Zauberer though.

boooring lol 😂(no hate to Cascade's pillar, it looks good but like- why? lmao, it's still a decorative stone structure, it would also break the maps I've contributed as I used the gargoyles AS gargoyles, his pillars being made on Freedoom made sense as the previous ones looked like ass.)

[MrFlibble]

54 minutes ago, Craneo said:

it's still a decorative stone structure, it would also break the maps I've contributed as I used the gargoyles AS gargoyles

I was primarily concerned that your gargoyle seems to be wider and taller, possibly resulting in a clipped sprite in some PWADS (?). I'm all for reimagining decorations as something else, within certain limits. Perhaps you could make a version with the wings not spread, to reduce height and width?

 

On another note, I was just browsing the Heretic/HeXen resource thread, and it looks like this post by @DooMAD appears to be about textures intended for Blasphemer (?):

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1883159

 

UPD: A newer version of the pack is on the next page:

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1891140

 

Looks like most of the images these are based on were sourced by Googling, with exact provenance unclear, making them unsuitable for the base project, sadly.

There are also some from-scratch textures by @ETTiNGRiNDER here. Not sure if those could be useful somehow? (again, maybe for Zauberer?)

[GeorgePieVG]

1 hour ago, MrFlibble said:

BTW, anyone else think that the fonts could be replaced with something more readable?

I can recommend the Shatterhand font by @Mechadon, here is my PR with the game ready font. I like how it fits in with the artstyle of the sword cursor, however it has some issues too, like smallfont needs to be recolored to gray because it doesn't display correctly in GZDoom and also some characters are similar to each other.

[GeorgePieVG]

20 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

I was primarily concerned that your gargoyle seems to be wider and taller, possibly resulting in a clipped sprite in some PWADS (?). I'm all for reimagining decorations as something else, within certain limits. Perhaps you could make a version with the wings not spread, to reduce height and width?

I don't think limits are a problem, just like in my PR with the trees by Cascade. Unfortunately, the original Heretic had few scenery sets and all of them were almost unmemorable, following those limits would be a loss for Blasphemer aesthetically and prevent it from becoming a standalone game. I think the most important thing is that the sprite sizes should roughly correlate to the hitbox sizes so as not to mislead the player. Well and the theme of the scenery itself should be respected, for example, an architectural monument or something natural, it will be enough.

[MrFlibble]

7 minutes ago, GeorgePieVG said:

just like in my PR with the trees by Cascade

I'll be very honest with you, I don't like the idea of replacing stalagmites with trees that much (as I've already mentioned in my reply to your PR). It will end up with dead trees somehow having grown inside lava caverns in at least some of the custom levels. In fact, this will be the case in the very first level in the aforementioned Blasphemous Experiments, a level set that has been created specifically for it:

Of course, one might argue that PWAD compatibility is of secondary concern, but you'll have to agree as well that the current scope of the project does not really allow it to become a truly "standalone game", because it still uses all of Heretic's weapons, monsters and items, even if they appear and sound differently

[GeorgePieVG]

9 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

Of course, one might argue that PWAD compatibility is of secondary concern, but you'll have to agree as well that the current scope of the project does not really allow it to become a truly "standalone game", because it still uses all of Heretic's weapons, monsters and items, even if they appear and sound differently

Agreed, however the recent Freed∞m releases are really good as a new take on mechanically the same game as Doom but with a whole new aesthetic, art style, lore and story.