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40oz

On the topic of "the two doom communities"

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Lets play devils advocate for a moment and imagine there is no divide in the community. The community either moved to one faction or the other -- the opposite of the one you associate yourself with now.

disregarding the obvious answer of saying you'd probably just quit doom and play something else, lets suppose you wanted to try to integrate yourself in the doom community despite your obvious differences. Could you do it without being a bitter snob? If you lean towards the unofficial doomworld purists group and your only way to get noticed was to make gameplay mods, would you be making gameplay mods that don't take too much away from the original game? If you are more associated with zdoom gameplay mods, and the only way to get noticed was to make vanilla/limitremoving/boom maps, would you do your best to bend the game play as much as possible at the risk of "going too far?"

Sorry if I'm alienating anyone who is apathetic towards the community differences and can participate in both sides with no trouble, as this is more a question for those who obviously feel strongly one way or another. I'm just thinking about this myself and wondering what gameplay mods I might attempt to make if zdoom/other communities were the only active doom communities left.

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40oz said:

bitter snob ... get noticed ... get noticed

"Get noticed"???

I'd do what I enjoy to, which means to play and make whatever / whenever / however I want, and I'd take the community's philosophy just as an inspiration, not as something I have to assimilate to. Why would it make me a "bitter snob"?

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I'm with Scifista42, which means that I fall within the "apathetic group", I guess. Wanting to integrate myself into a community just for the sake of it is "out of character" when it comes to me.

With this in print, I'll confess that I lean more to the "purist group" than the other side. To me, DooM is great as it is.

However, DECORATE and ACS is really bristling with potential, and it's a shame that so few maps are produced in UDMF format (compared with DoomWorld's original/boom mapping output, I mean).

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as much as i love vanilla doom i dont consider myself a purist at all, i like playing around with zdoom mods as much as i like playing in chocolate doom. this is not because i think the original gameplay is lacking anything, its just i also like the gameplay in mods in the same way i also like other games

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Olroda said:

With this in print, I'll confess that I lean more to the "purist group" than the other side. To me, DooM is great as it is.

However, DECORATE and ACS is really bristling with potential, and it's a shame that so few maps are produced in UDMF format (compared with DoomWorld's original/boom mapping output, I mean).

And here I'm with you, too. :)

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I'm probably a bit of a purist when it comes to my own design aesthetic, but I think any mapper who has mastered the essentials of Doom gameplay and level design should feel free to dabble in the nearly limitless potential to be had in ACS and DECORATE and whatnot. A well-designed, well-scripted map with tactful use of custom monsters has the potential to be genius—and some are. It's easy to go insane with custom monsters and crazy scripts and lose sight of building something that fundamentally plays well, but fear of such overindulgence shouldn't mean forsaking EVERYTHING ZDoom.

Though as far as I can tell, even though Doomworld may have a handful of narrow-minded whippersnaps who only like ZDoom maps and equally narrow-minded curmudgeons who only play vanilla maps, most of us here are willing to try a variety and can appreciate the art in a well-executed map of any style. That's my impression anyway, the zealots out there may prove me wrong.

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Yeah, I'm in the middle somewhere too. I'm not a massive mod player, but I do play them sometimes and enjoy it.

I mostly play maps made with ZDoom and it's variants, and also make maps this way too...the only truly vanilla Doom version I still play, would be the PS1 port of the game. I'm also trying out other source ports to play WADs in, I don't think I'll be much good at making stuff for them though, I'm still only learning.

I find these new source ports and mods make the game quite a bit faster and a bit more free in how it plays.

I'm not much of a modder, I have made some basic enemies, an item or two, and I'm currently going back to an old map and adding in new textures.

But like StupidBunny says, if there is freedom and room to change and possibly expand the game through mods, I think those who can do it, should do it....it's not like splitting the atom and them making a bomb out of it and it's gonna kill us all one day..just making some mods to build on the foundations of what we have. The beauty of mods, is that if you don't like any of them, or some of them, then you can use a bit of free will and ignore them and then it can (or should) stop bothering you that it exists as you aren't stuck with them. I like how easy they are to swap and try out, you use them with a WAD or IWAD and see what it does, then take it out and play again using another mod...the ease of use is pretty cool. Whether you play lots of mods, or only a few it hardly is ever a hassle to play them.

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There are several self-absorbed sub-groups (extrapolating their nearest buddies as being representative of the whole Doom community) (judging by forum responses), in my Opinion.
Most notable are those that claim that most everybody that matters plays ZDoom, and the Vanilla purist camp.

But, I suspect the free-range chickens of Doom mapping outnumber these groups several times over.

This non-group champions the absolute freedom of Doom mapping. It does not really have members, because membership brings commonality which feels like mapping restrictions.

This would deny the premise of the original statement.
There is little reason to be joining either group.
There is not much the restrictive groups could do about anything the free-rangers do, except talk.

If you made a mod for ZDoom, there would some "awesomes" from the ZDoom supporters. If you make a mod adhering to Vanilla principles, there would be a set of similar congrats from the Vanilla purists. Make any other kind of mod and what? So there is not a readily identifiable group to give you immediate positive feedback. Is that all that is really wanted ?

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wesleyjohnson said:

the free-range chickens of Doom

Nice turn of phrase, all we need now is a gameplay mod to go with it.

I like to think of myself as a source port generalist and could probably settle just about anywhere except The Doom Universe, but if I found myself unable to fit into this hypothetical single community I'd probably consider resurrecting the other faction, if possible.

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Yeah I'm a source port generalist as well... Although we might also consider the divide between multiplayer and singleplayer communities, and those who engage in both.

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Well, there were newdoom forums....but membership there was more about polishing Phoebus's knob than anything. Hard to feel proud or snobbish about it, at least outside of the "community".

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That's more or less what I do now. I figure if I can make a mod that doomworld likes to some degree It's probably safe to assume the ZDoom forums will enjoy it to.

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I'm happy to be integrated into all parts of the communtiy. I'd say there's more than two halves, though. It's more like a bunch of factions. Doomworld, Zandronum, Zdaemon, Zdoom and Odamex all have their own sects, some very large, some small, but there's only a small degree of overlap. I wish every Doom site and port would consider themselves affiliates of the Doom family.

So many people limit themselves to one forum, one port, etc. Sometimes it's the result of not even trying to see the positives in what the alternative ports/forums have to offer. Sometimes it's simply a lack of awareness.

This has been a topic that's been coming up a lot lately I've noticed. Maybe it's a sign of good things to come, as in walls being broken down.

Also, dew, your first post won the thread pretty much instantly.

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40oz said:

Lets play devils advocate for a moment and imagine there is no divide in the community. The community either moved to one faction or the other -- the opposite of the one you associate yourself with now.

disregarding the obvious answer of saying you'd probably just quit doom and play something else

This outlook is puzzling to me. I guess, like others have said, I don't associate with any particular 'DOOM faction'. Moreover, even if I did, I don't (as you implied) see that the obvious response to my preferred faction's being marginalised would be to stop playing DOOM - who's enjoyment of DOOM is contingent on their being a member of a preference-sharing clique?

So yeah, puzzling. My impression of the situation is that, as with any hobby, the ways that people pursue it diverge according to their interests and preferences, and - as with any hobbyist community (or, at least, the ones I've been exposed to) - there can be small but quite vocal minorities who suppose that their interests and preferences are something more than that, and reflect standards that other people are obliged to conform to, else they're doing it wrong. The tendency of these groups to make a disproportionate amount of noise might give the impression that things are more factional than they really are. But why worry about these guys? Just make what you enjoy making.

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Doomkid said:

So many people limit themselves to one forum, one port, etc. Sometimes it's the result of not even trying to see the positives in what the alternative ports/forums have to offer. Sometimes it's simply a lack of awareness.

Speaking about forums: Well, I'm personally a Doomworlder-only, pretty much. I visit Doomworld a lot, unless I'm busy with other things (including playing wads and wad editing), and can't say this about other forums at all. But it's not because I have anything against the other forums/communities, not in the slightest. Nor I am unaware that the forums/communities exist. It's because it would be too much for me if I was constantly checking discussions and happenings on multiple sites, I'd be overwhelmed. Doomworld itself is big, a lot of things and discussions happen here, and for me it's just enough incentives for a "happy forum life".

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I'm a ZDoom user but I prefer not to participate in community. The ZDoom forums makes this place look like Republicanworld.

I have no opinion on what engine people should mod for.

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Digging through multiple threads on multiple sites just takes way too long. Easier to stick with Doomworld - which encompasses most of the community anyway.

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I found Doomworld, I liked it here, and I stuck around. I don't feel the need to register on another forum to also discuss Doom there. (Though occasionally if someone links to a discussion on, say, the ZDoom forums, I'll check it out. But I never feel the need to comment.)

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I will quite happily play any and all formats. I admit that I do prefer ZDoom as I design my maps for it. ACS is fantastic and I really would be hard pushed to go back to trying to map for vanilla - it was fun (but a nightmare) back when I got hold of a copy of DEU but these days.... Well the flexibility of ZDoom and of course UDMF combined with tools such as Doombuilder/GZDB/Slade3.... well, life is good :)

Dave

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Meh, play what you like and like what you play.

Factions in a community centred around a 20+ year old game simply don't make sense to me.

I like modding for (G)ZDoom and I tend to like mods for that engine too. I tend to spend more time on the ZDoom forum than here, but I spend plenty of time here too. I play anything and everything (maps, ports and core games). I don't think I crusade for any particular "faction" and I don't really get why some people seem to feel that doing so is important. The original post seems to make an assumption (or more) that I'm not convinced is correct.

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What Enjay said.

I'm personally more inclined to the (G)ZDoom side of things, but I'm not actually much for outright gameplay mods. I'm more of a "Doom with some extra stuff" mentality, which is why I tend to enjoy mapsets which keep Doom's core elements intact but expand upon them, rather than flat-out replace them.

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Doomworld seems to be filled with very agressive and defensive retro-doom players...

To me it is no surprise to see a split community based around different engines and other ways of
using doom. change it to much, add to much, change the ideas and it gets dragged trough the mud
on doomworld... (brutaldoom, action mods, etc...)

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The Zdoom community is pretty decent these days (though I don't crawl or post anywhere on there BUT at that thread), I'm able to host an 3DGE thread and get feedback from some members there. It's a shame the old EDGE forums closed because that was a great little place, but it's a product of the times, I suppose.

Doomworld has become a bit more lax than I remember it being in the early 2000's, but maybe because gameplay mods are so damn common nowadays. Wish EDGE was afforded that same respect during its heyday, but whatever. I run a very small 3DGE forum in addition to the wiki in case people want specific problems fixed or whatever, but it seems people are also taking to the Sourceforge forum, so it's whatev. Wherever people are cool with me talking about 3DGE is where I go, really. In that respect, I much prefer it that way because I don't want to restrict my engine to just one community, but everywhere I can take it. For instance, it's really big in the Dreamcast community because it's egging on commercial development for the system, since it's a relatively easy engine to learn/mod. I in turn point them back to Doomworld because it's better to learn the "pure" way first, imo.

These days I feel it's something like "Doomworld must conform or else", but like others have pointed out, we have a stronger appreciation for "vanilla" and BOOM-compatible projects (also, originality). I feel like this place is your "proving ground", not making something for the sake of "modding it" as Zdoom's forums tend to lean towards, but really expressing creativity and originality. Not saying Zdoom doesn't have that (because they can come up with some original, mindblowing stuff too), it's just sort of the unspoken rule 'round these parts. It's called DOOMworld for a reason.

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I think it can be helpful to have some limits, if, like me, you lack self control and may get stuck adding endless irrelevant items and then never finishing your primary goal.
However, if you are making a "vanilla" level and get to a point where the game is refusing to run properly, or you think gosh this level could really benefit from some slopes, you might as well trade up your engine, unless you feel religiously forbidden from doing so, and then how did THAT happen?
My grievance is with arbitrary, pointless limiting. It is not like painting in oil; there are not elite Doom collectors who are going to pay more for your work because your tools were harder to use, nor should there be.

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