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Blastfrog

I don't support Doom 4

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I've been on the fence about it for a while but I think I've decided to avoid any new id games until they change their practices. They've fallen so far from status and their behavior is disgraceful. They often cannot get their act together, and they act like this when they manage to not screw up as hard as usual:

1. Predatory pre-order bonuses. Pre-ordering is bad enough as it is, but to work stuff in like "get a beta of another game at some unspecified point months or even years later" does not sit well with me.

2. The exclusive reveal. They tease everyone for years, and when they finally show anything, the public is excluded. Why are they so afraid to show the general public? Yes, the public is harsh and there would likely be a lot of irrational hatred, but if the game is actually headed in a good design direction then it will hold up on its own. I frankly don't care what the people who saw it said, they could be biased because they were already die-hard enough to have attended Quakecon (no offense to you, GoatLord, you're a cool guy).

3. The Brutal Doom comparisons. This one is a lot more personal and subjective for me, but I don't like Brutal Doom and I don't want to see the new Doom being anything like it. Mark is a callous bully and a borderline plagiarist. The mod itself is noisy and poorly balanced. I wouldn't mind it as much if it weren't so overrated or if Mark was actually a likable person (as it is, he's an ass and unapologetically proud of it). Fools attribute work to Mark that is not his (many assets in the mod itself, some even credit him for GZDoom itself). It's also annoying to see the same kind of people complain when any other mods not designed for it have compatibility or balance issues with it, as if it were mandatory to add support, perhaps because of the assumption that BD is most people's default mode of Dooming.

I don't like that they imitate BD for not only the above, but because of how it may represent Doom in the future. Making it like BD seems like a marketing-oriented move. "Pure" Doom will continue to be heralded as a classic while BD will likely die down at some point in the next 10 years, and Doom 4 will feel very aged because of it when this happens. Doom 3 understood the importance of atmosphere but forgot to bring the action. Brutal Doom is just Doom Comic: The Game. Neither are appropriate approaches to Doom's feel, you need a balance of both action and atmosphere. I want a Doom game, not Doom 3 and not the Doom comic. I want intense action, but I want it to be just a bit more subtle in order to not totally kill the creepy atmosphere.

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1. Buy retail. Stores will have copies with pre-order bonuses long enough for you to check reviews and opinions. Also, welcome to 2014.

2. Means nothing for the quality of the final product.

3. You jump into all kinds of conclusions based on nothing more than a couple of key words. Seriously, I'm amazed at how someone can make such a declaration without seeing a single screenshot. If upon watching the gameplay footage you'll think that it doesn't feel like DOOM, fair enough. But right now you're making tons of assumptions based on nothing really. Hardly a substantial reason to not support the game, if you ask me, but what do I know.

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All of that stuff is just Bethesda/ZeniMax trying to figure a way out of the worst buy they've ever made. They're reaching for creative strategies because they were about to completely tank with id Software running itself into the ground.

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As someone who doesn't want the new Doom to feel like Brutal Doom, I can safely say it was handled maturely. The fact that the fatalities are so short--and more importantly, optional--shows that id knows what they're doing. Maybe it's because I attended and saw the footage, but I cannot say enough good things about what they showed us. I really don't think it's necessary to get in a huff about things when the reveal was so well received. I totally get your concern, but believe me, it's not the noisy, unbalanced, overly bloody mess that BD is.

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Quasar said:

All of that stuff is just Bethesda/ZeniMax trying to figure a way out of the worst buy they've ever made. They're reaching for creative strategies because they were about to completely tank with id Software running itself into the ground.


And yet they wanted to buy Human Head too, but Human Head resisted. Interesting to see how Human Head wanted to remain independent, and they are still in business being independent, while id complained about needing the buyout to receive publisher support.

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1. This wasn't even iD as far as I know. Also, why give a shit? It's like you're just trying really hard to find something to complain about just so you can hold yourself high and mighty about "moral standards" or some shit.

2. I have to agree the exclusive reveal was kind of a shit move. Yeah, I guess it's cool to treat the attendees a bit more special than others, but why not just give them a free Doom 4 hat or some kind single level/half-of-a-level Demo or something? Eh, whatever. The fact such a reveal happened though is still good news. Unless, of course, everyone was crowded into a room, Willits said "Welp, we actually don't have anything. But tell your friends it's going to be awesome and that they should have been here... And, uh... Lie for us. kthnxbye."

3. There's nothing out there right now to prove anything you've just said. There's no videos, there's no screenshots, nothing. You're going off of a few words that slipped out in some word of mouth scenarios. This is super retarded, and I feel like you just wrote this to rant and rave about how much Brutal Doom sucks (Which it kinda does, but I like the obnoxious violence, but it's so god awful in the balance department it's virtually unplayable). You apparently went off of other people's memories. Memory is very faulty. GoatLord has been great, as far as we know. For all we know, he hit his head on the door while walking out, blanked out, and hardly remembers anything (No offense GL... Just saying).


Sodaholic said:


The amount of bait in the OP is of a Golden Quality.

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I would buy Doom 4 if it was basically Ultimate Doom with Brutal Doom amped up to 11, and it used a modern engine.

Hating Sgt Mark IV is one thing, but hating Brutal Doom because Sgt made some unpleasant comments is like hating President Obama because he is essentially destroying the USA.

And Obama is black. If you hate Obama, that means you are racist and a member of the KKK (which, amusingly, was actually created by the Democrats in order to prevent black people from voting for Republicans; the agenda of the DNC has certainly changed a lot over the years).

Actually, if they implemented some kind of random level generator in Doom 4's single player mode, that would just take things to a level of awesome that nothing else could compare to.

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Clonehunter said:

Is doomgargoyle back so soon?


I don't know how to respond to that since I don't know what you are talking about.

Should I be insulted by that?

Is that the doomworld equivalent of insulting another person in a language that the other person doesn't understand?

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I can tell you one thing, if the Doom 4 developers are going to imitate Brutal Doom for their gameplay mechanics, it is going to be a disappointing game. Over the top gore doesn't necessarily make a game great. That is just my opinion. I kinda lost hope for Doom 4 ever since I heard that they completely went off track after 5 years of development.

ID Software isn't the same anymore. Don't expect anything innovative out of them. The only thing they seem to excel at is making new game engines (Back when John Carmack was still with ID).

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Maybe the fact that they're 'not the same anymore' is the best reason to expect innovative things from them?

Gotta be amused by that attitude: whatever happens at id, people complain. Carmack is at id, people complain about Tech 4/5. Carmack leaves id, people complain that id is dead. People complain about D3/RAGE but when things change at id, they complain that id is not the same anymore. People hate Tim Willits but I bet that if he left, they would complain that he's gone.

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I think the connection to Brutal Doom is being overestimated. It probably inspired them to add the "fatality" mechanic and that's the extent of it. I highly doubt DOOM guy is going to be running around screaming "FUCK YOU", flipping off monsters, etc.

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Absolutely. People hear "gore" and "fatalities" and immediately assume it'll be copying BD in every single aspect. Which most likely won't be the case at all.

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Doom 4 doesn't need your support, and you're going to play it anyway.

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Quasar said:

I think the connection to Brutal Doom is being overestimated. It probably inspired them to add the "fatality" mechanic and that's the extent of it. I highly doubt DOOM guy is going to be running around screaming "FUCK YOU", flipping off monsters, etc.


I hope that's as far as the resemblance to BD goes. Flipping off monsters is what I'd expect the least in a Doom game - maybe in a Duke Nukem game, but not Doom. Even in BD, it's just a completely pointless feature.

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I can assure you guys that from what they showed us at the reveal, the Brutal Doom similarities end with the fatalities and extreme gore, only it didn't look silly or stupid. It was very appropriate to what the player was doing. You get close to a monster, you crush its skull, pull out its heart or otherwise pulverize it. The gore that accompanies such actions feels realistic, given that the Doom Guy is obviously wearing some sort of powerful exoskeletal suit. Blood and viscera spray everywhere, but it doesn't cover the map like it does in BD, and it doesn't take more than a couple seconds of your time. The overall atmosphere of the demo was mature, but with a healthy dose of old school ultra-violence, ala "Aliens," "Total Recall," "Hellraiser," "Event Horizon," etc. It feels more like those movies than the original series ever did, which is a good thing.

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http://middleeasy.com/gaming/item/11396-12-games-that-ripped-off-mortal-kombat-s-fatalities-and-failed-horribly
No one ripped off Brutal Doom. It was just a mod that added blood and fatalities and such.
That's a list of other games with fatalities just to show you.
(Ignore the nature of the article, just was the first thing that popped up on google).
But since Brutal Doom is a mod, and not paid for nor profitable in any way. They aren't "ripping" off anything.
Even so, ID owns the rights to Doom, so therefor if Brutal Doom we're to become profitable, it would be so under ID.
Not giving Brutal Doom credit or anything, just annoyed how people keep saying Doom 4 is ripping BD off. When in reality BD is just a mod, another mod that is playable for free.
So please, for the love of all things Doom, if you hate Brutal Doom, compare Doom's "Fatalities" to Mortal Kombat or something. XO

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DooM_RO said:

We don't care.

Individuals can only speak for themselves and I don't care that you don't care (and you apparently cared enough about your non-caring to state it, as do I to reply). This is a message board where people are allowed to express themselves. I'm not sure why you're complaining about my post, except perhaps to express your disinterest but then what's the point in posting if not to constructively add to the discussion?

frithiof said:

Hating Sgt Mark IV is one thing, but hating Brutal Doom because Sgt made some unpleasant comments is like hating President Obama because he is essentially destroying the USA.

I personally believe that plagiaristic and antagonistic people should not be or have their works promoted until they actively work to change their negative ways. For id and others to promote BD, I think it's disrespectful to the people that Mark has negatively affected.

As for the entirely unrelated political comment, yeah, I distrust and dislike the current president for being a spineless pseudo-Democrat that just gives corporate interests whatever they want. One of the latest examples is how poorly he continues to handle net neutrality. I don't consider saying that you're in favor of it while acting in ways opposite of its interests to be "handling it well".

I feel this way to varying extents about most current and powerful American politicians. I do have a greater degree of trust for Green party candidates, but they unfortunately have little power due to the election process being rigged.

What does this even have to do with Doom 4 anyway?

Quasar said:

I think the connection to Brutal Doom is being overestimated. It probably inspired them to add the "fatality" mechanic and that's the extent of it. I highly doubt DOOM guy is going to be running around screaming "FUCK YOU", flipping off monsters, etc.

My primary concern was that I don't think id should have given BD any attention. The game potentially taking influence from it is a problem IMO, but don't assume that I consider it the only possibility for its current state and creative direction.

SYS said:

Doom 4 doesn't need your support, and you're going to play it anyway.

I never said or implied that my boycott would have any impact whatsoever.

Also, you don't know me if you're making statements like that. I am so behind on gaming. I only briefly had a 360 a couple of years before the big UI overhaul and I sold it. I never owned a PS3 and only ever tried one briefly maybe 3 times? I've never actually seen any 8th gen console out of its box or any playable demos. I never even considered getting GTA4, Diablo 3, never played Mass Effect. Have never, ever spent a cent on anything EA related for years because I already feel iffy about Steam and don't want another leech on my PC from a far dirtier company.

Honestly, I just kind of dropped out of modern games and have only had a handful of experiences. I mostly stick to older stuff. Point is that if I still feel the way I currently do when the game is available for purchase, my money is not going to id or Zenimax. Even if they have games that interest me, I can easily live without them if I don't feel good about giving money to the parts of the companies that I don't like.

Being cynical, frugal and consistently not giving a damn about anything has really lightened up my gaming budget.

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I think it'll be the last good game id makes before they completely die.

And I mean, I don't particularly care about Capcom or id or Zenimax or what they do, but I bought all the Doom games on Steam, and I plan on buying the new Resident Evil REmake port/touchup, and I would at least want to get Doom 4, if it turned out good and I had a computer that could at least boot the monster.

I barely have the energy or patience to play video games any more. Even something as simple as Mario or the WOOO mods really drains so much out of me for some reason. I'd sooner do some physical labor out in the snow right now than even so much as boot up a game right now, and I feel pretty bad at the moment.

That's why I watch so many commented gameplay videos, so I can see what happens in the game and the industry without actually getting involved, and with some decent riffing as well. Vinesauce and Game Grumps have been a somewhat of a godsend for those reasons.

The same holds for film and books, I just can't deal with caring about some made up events or people or other garbage. Especially when it's entirely meaningless and without concrete permanence. One retcon or reboot and it's yesterday's news. So I've learned not to put much effort into enjoying a work or growing too fond of it. Usually I stick around longest if it's fun to make fun of, constant affectionate parody maybe, I dunno.

It's about six now, slept in until ten today. That's pretty late for me, yet I still feel quite tired. I didn't even do anything of significance, weird. Ate breakfast, too even. Had a bit of coffee. Just don't feel well...

But what does this have to do with Doom 4? I don't fucking know. Something maybe.

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While I'm not in 100% agreement, I can definitely see where Sodaholic is coming from. One thing I think is very interesting is how the private reveal has completely paralyzed (or killed?) any hype or anticipation towards the game. It went from wild, yet interesting, speculations and rumors to complete silence and disinterest. I've personally lost almost all desire to talk about the game even though I found the reports about the reveal to be interesting.

EDIT: That isn't necessarily a bad thing for id. It could be just what they want and need. To be honest I'm not so sure what was shown at Quakecon has all that much to do with the final product. My personal gut feeling about it is that it was a forced vertical slice as a pitch for the game and the real thing is years off. Sure, they'll base the game off of what was shown as it was received spectacularly, but I would be surprised if what they showed was actually the game rather than a proof of concept demo.

But I wasn't there. They could be 6 months from release by now. I guess that's why it's kinda nonsensical to talk about.

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Sodaholic said:

I am so behind on gaming.

How does one stay current? By having every next gen console and playing every AAA release that comes out? If I wanted to go through my steam list I'd be playing forever.

Sodaholic said:

I only briefly had a 360 a couple of years before the big UI overhaul and I sold it. I never owned a PS3 and only ever tried one briefly maybe 3 times? I've never actually seen any 8th gen console out of its box or any playable demos. I never even considered getting GTA4, Diablo 3, never played Mass Effect. Have never, ever spent a cent on anything EA related for years because I already feel iffy about Steam and don't want another leech on my PC from a far dirtier company.

My PS3 collects dust, and the last GTA game that was good is San Andreas. GTA4 was complete travesty and 5 tries to be so immersive it's boring. Mission: "Pickup your family and drive them to therapy." Listen to 30 minutes of dialog. No.
Diablo 3 they completely revamped from launch, but I can't be bothered to play it again.

Mass Effect 1 & 2 are available through steam and don't require origin. But you will still be giving some money to EAids.

Sodaholic said:

Honestly, I just kind of dropped out of modern games and have only had a handful of experiences. I mostly stick to older stuff. Point is that if I still feel the way I currently do when the game is available for purchase, my money is not going to id or Zenimax. Even if they have games that interest me, I can easily live without them if I don't feel good about giving money to the parts of the companies that I don't like.

Being cynical, frugal and consistently not giving a damn about anything has really lightened up my gaming budget.


The reason I say you're going to play it anyway is most with your exact same sentiments will just self-righteously pirate the game.

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Ahhhh, so that's your problem Sodaholic.

I only care about the game. I don't care who makes it. I don't care who's the publisher. Damn, I hate Zenimax for a lot of things (like screwing up the development of Prey 2) but I sure as hell won't miss things like the new DOOM game or Dishonored because of that, thank you very much.

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frithiof said:

I don't know how to respond to that since I don't know what you are talking about.

Should I be insulted by that?

Is that the doomworld equivalent of insulting another person in a language that the other person doesn't understand?

Doomgargoyal was a member that recently got banned for spamming threads of him excessively swearing and some other shit about international Adolf Hitler day or what ever. just take a quick look at the first page of post hell if you are interested

Dont worry no one is insulting you at all.

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Clonehunter said:

The amount of bait in the OP is of a Golden Quality.

If I'm not mistaken, you're assuming OP was a troll and that it wasn't legitimate mental illness. I don't really care, I err on the side that it was true mental illness and should have been treated as such. Mark was wrong to do what he did and I won't back down from that position.

Clonehunter said:

It's like you're just trying really hard to find something to complain about just so you can hold yourself high and mighty about "moral standards" or some shit.

Nope, I legitimately have issues with how preordering is handled these days. They ask me to throw down money on an unproven game by another dev to MAYBE demo another game down the line. It's minor, but I don't like it regardless.

Worse examples are when publishers cut off parts of the game that make a serious difference in the quality of the experience in the form of DLC. "Buy the game before you even know it's good to get 100% of the content and not just 70% of it!" No. I don't want a half-baked experience when I buy the full game, I want a full experience.

I don't give a shit if said content was technically produced after the game shipped, if the DLC ships within 6 months of a game's release and really completes what otherwise feels like an incomplete experience, I say they're cheating people out of their money. If it's an issue of game budgets.

Either include the full content (even if it means up to 6 months of delay) at a higher price like $80 or even $100, or lower the budget to compromise with 2005-era graphics to keep the full experience at $50/$60.

Something's not right with the current model that preordering bases itself on. Preordering made sense in the days of retail-only: you want your copy on day-one so you reserve one to avoid losing out when your local shop is out of stock.

These days when even the retail version just redirects you to a digital distribution service, there is zero rationality for preorders to exist. It has transformed more into a way of screwing the people who wait for whatever reason (typically skepticism and for good reason), it is now more than just an outmoded retail convenience.

Clonehunter said:

I feel like you just wrote this to rant and rave about how much Brutal Doom sucks

Heh, you're mostly right about that.

Clonehunter said:

You apparently went off of other people's memories. Memory is very faulty.

I highly doubt that Xaser fabricated any of that ZDF thread. When confronted about it, Mark does not deny that it happened, he only responds with "lol pussies u cant handle it" demonstrating his utter lack of compassion or social responsibility.

He doesn't deny the event and even defends himself for such deplorable shit. Nobody should defend him until the day that he admits that he was wrong do do what he did. Come on, Mark. If you're reading this, quit being such a bitch and admit that you were wrong. Suicide is no joking matter, and I am not easily offended.

GoatLord said:

I can assure you guys that from what they showed us at the reveal, the Brutal Doom similarities end with the fatalities and extreme gore, only it didn't look silly or stupid. It was very appropriate to what the player was doing.

I trust you on this.

To reiterate, my concern is that Mark's selfish and bully-like behavior should not be encouraged which is exactly what id Software and John Romero did when promoting his work whether they realize it or not.

I imagine (and hope) that they didn't have a clue about how much of a jerk Mark is when they promoted him. I'm only truly upset if they actually did know in advance and chose to dismiss it.

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Sodaholic said:

If I'm not mistaken, you're assuming OP was a troll and that it wasn't legitimate mental illness. I don't really care, I err on the side that it was true mental illness and should have been treated as such. Mark was wrong to do what he did and I won't back down from that position.


I'm almost positive that was a troll. It was too contrived. Although, if it was real, and if there was any good hint of it being true, then yes. Mark is a cunt.

Sodaholic said:

"Why Pre-Orders Suck"


Yah, I think I can agree with most of this. But again, no one is forcing you to buy it anyways. I try to never buy Day One or Pre-Order, no matter how much cool shit they throw at me. For example, I got Max Payne 3 as a gift twice. That cool looking statue that came with the pre-orders? I can get it for ten bucks or so on eBay. Even if I didn't get the gifts, I could have just as easily bought the game during a Steam sale for ten bucks, buy the statue for ten bucks, and basically have the meat of the pre-order package for 20 bucks instead of sixty or eighty or whatever.

At least Pre-Orders on Steam immediately get you your TF2 hats *cough*alienisolationimweak*cough*

Although the Beta is unfairly tempting, especially because there is no telling when it will actually be available. I think there was a clause where they could just cancel the Beta at any time, thus making the Pre-Order completely worthless.

Sodaholic said:

To reiterate, my concern is that Mark's selfish and bully-like behavior should not be encouraged which is exactly what id Software and John Romero did when promoting his work whether they realize it or not.

I imagine (and hope) that they didn't have a clue about how much of a jerk Mark is when they promoted him. I'm only truly upset if they actually did know in advance and chose to dismiss it.


I doubt they went to Doom forums saying, "Hmm, I like this mod, but this guy could be an Asshole. Hm let's look around... Mm, okay, this thread is clean. Nope, nothing wrong here. Heh heh, fart jokes in this thread. Hm... Oh wait, here's a thread that's a couple pages back. Lets see... "Go Kill... Yer... You... Uh... YOUR, uh, self!" Hm... That doesn't sound very nice, so uh, no."

They probably didn't, and they may not even care that much. Is it a sin that they don't care if they do find out? Probably not. World is full of supposedly undeserving assholes, but no one cares. Now I suppose they could the mod is cool, but then they could also condemn Mark himself if they wanted to.

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Man, this thread just needs to stop. Nothing against sodaholic, but he needs to seriously chill out. Speculating over something with almost no actual information is just a time waster.

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And in regards to Brutal Doom, "Death of the Author" is a nice little thing for the entire (stupid and somewhat influenced by the hatedom the mod itself has) debate.

It doesn't matter that Mark may or may not be a cunt, but one can still enjoy the mod itself.

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Sodaholic said:

I think it's disrespectful to the people that Mark has negatively affected.


Excuse me sir, but could you refresh my memory? AFAIK, Binary never harmed himself, so who are these people that I "negatively affected"?

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