Explain the appeal of playing with saves

[mouldy]

Phml said:

It seems strange to me to insist it's not a competition while on the other hand expressing concern when other people see the practice as cheating. Surely if you only care about your own experience in a vacuum, then it shouldn't bother you one bit what the rest of the world thinks about it.

You've somehow managed to completely misunderstand what I said and ended up repeating the point I was making, so I'll just clarify...

I didn't say it concerns me that other people think I'm cheating, I said I don't understand why they would think it was, when it is clearly built into the game and was intended to be an option in normal play. I then went on to describe how I play the game, and made the point that everyone sets their own difficulty by the way they play, because they are competing with themselves. This means there is no right or wrong way to play the game, but I've chosen a way that doesn't limit the type of maps I can enjoy.

[Stupid Bunny]

I try my very best to beat any map without saving. I used to be in the habit of saving regularly, until I realized that a game of Doom is not a Word document and that it cheapens the thrill of an intense game to be able to restart wherever I want. That said, my play style is slow and meticulous enough that, after multiple repeated plays of the same map, it actually starts to lose its excitement somewhat. In cases like these, I'll usually have played and died enough times to know which spot(s) kill me the most, and mark these as "checkpoints" where I save once or twice in the map.

[Waffenak]

Biggest reason: No need for useless and long backtracking

[Megalyth]

Waffenak said:

Biggest reason: No need for useless and long backtracking

This, and (I'll quote myself in a recent IRC discussion) it's very anti-climactic to get all the way to a big battle or boss, and then die and have to do it all over again. I'm not ten years old anymore, I don't have the same drive to master a game or levels of a game.

I do like a challenge, however, so I don't "save-scum", but I save at pivotal points through-out. I will most likely lose interest if I have to slog through a huge map again because I juked left instead of right and died.

[NuMetalManiak]

I view not saving as a challenge for a level I'm experienced in. I don't do it often because I hate screwing up mid way and having to load way the hell back in some other area/map. it's better if I play casually though, so I save at some crucial areas or if I am extremely paranoid.

[Coopersville]

It allows people who are unfamiliar with the game/wad to complete it without dramatically increasing the difficulty. I haven't quicksaved in either Doom 1 or 2 once for probably a half decade, but if any new wad I'm playing wants any chance of me finishing it, I save on a level-by-level basis.

[VGA]

Memfis said:

If after death you can just load a savegame and instantly retry the same fight, that pretty much means that you can't lose and there's nothing to worry about.

Not for me, I'm trying my best not to die, i get scared sometimes, etc. And if i reach low health, i don't reload ... only when dying.

[Vs1991]

i dont save scum. if i do i feel like i cheated and didnt actually finish the level. only saves atthe beginning of each level and if i die i do it again. cept for really long levels

[Pirx]

Megalyth said:

This, and (I'll quote myself in a recent IRC discussion) it's very anti-climactic to get all the way to a big battle or boss, and then die and have to do it all over again. I'm not ten years old anymore, I don't have the same drive to master a game or levels of a game.

I do like a challenge, however, so I don't "save-scum", but I save at pivotal points through-out. I will most likely lose interest if I have to slog through a huge map again because I juked left instead of right and died.

yup. playing without saves is much more exciting, as you keep fighting when down your last hp instead of reloading. however, i save from time to time when playing large maps. i don't feel like slogging through it again and again.

Maes said:

On a more related note, in vanilla Doom saving had an inherent "scumming" element to it, as monsters lost their targets and stopped chasing after the player (unless they were facing you when you saved). So simply by saving & reloading a game, you "calmed down" most of the monsters. That's an obvious gameplay manipulation.

lol. i did exactly that thing to calm down the crowd ;)

iirc vanilla also had the possibility to start a network game from a save, and we abused that when playing through tnt for the first time in coop. the other guy got scratched by an imp seconds after picking up a megasphere, and seeing his perfect 200/200 ruined enraged him so much that he demanded a reload...

[Clonehunter]

I'll save on maps I'm new too, usually before or after hefty encounters or traps. ALthough, in some cases when I save before an encounter, and I survive, I may actually reload and try again if I lost too much health or used more ammo than I think I could have. If I play through a map several times or know the map fairly well, I'll usually play it without saves. Oddly enough, I've learned the last two maps in Doom II (Or rather, the two before IoS) well enough to play them from pistol starts and get through without saving on HMP and UV, although I'm pretty bad or sick of the rest of the maps in the game. Maybe it's because I like those maps. Otherwise I reserve saving for big megawads and maps I'm new too. I'd rather not do really well through a map, only to be dicked by a bullshit trap or a stupid mistake and have to start over again (Although the latter may deserve punishment).

[Doomkid]

Well there's plenty of people here giving good reasons to save (maps that are too long, coming back to the game later on, etc) but I always thought a nice out-of-the-box feature would have been autosave linedefs.

Not only would it automatically save, like in some ZDoom wads, but it also would mean any save between the two autosave points would place you back at that linedef, preventing someone from lamely saving every 5 seconds.

Sort of like a checkpoint system, simply put. I guess that just whacking a 'save/load' feature in the way they did was easier, and they figured only the worst kind of people would be saving their progress after every single kill, which in turn makes the game a lot less engrossing. You're only cheating yourself if you do that, in my eyes :)

[kmxexii]

a long, long time ago i used to play without saves. every review on my blog up until hell revealed was done that way. but doing it "hardcore" takes a lot longer than im willing to spend, especially when i spend even more time writing about doom and taking screenshots and getting everything together. i enjoyed chasing the dragon while it lasted and though i still start with the pistol, nowadays i save. whenever i remember to, that is. sometimes maps get really engrossing and i forget and then die and then replay it the old-fashioned way, lol

[Dave The Daring]

Doomkid said:

Sort of like a checkpoint system, simply put.

I'm not a fan of checkpoints. The older I get, the less patience I seem to have with video games, so the checkpoint save system can really frustrate me, especially if it's badly implemented.

I think a better option is to allow the player to save anywhere, and then award said player a score or rank at the end of the game based on a range of factors including the number of times the player saved, much like Resident Evil and other games. The player then has some motivation to save less without being forced to do so.

[7hm]

One reason I play with saves (when I do) is that I have this feeling that most map developers don't spend nearly as much time on skill settings that aren't UV. So even though UV for most modern maps UV is beyond my skillset, it's the "intended" way to play the map. I know it's not always the case, but it seems like it's the case quite often.

[scifista42]

Dave The Daring said:

I think a better option is to allow the player to save anywhere, and then award said player a score or rank at the end of the game based on a range of factors including the number of times the player saved, much like Resident Evil and other games. The player then has some motivation to save less without being forced to do so.

That ranking system would be unfair to the numerous players who don't play an entire game in one sitting (don't have time, mood or whatever), and instead they use saves when quitting the game so that they can continue the next day (week, month, an evening, whenever).

[Zulk RS]

I save every 5 seconds while playing a new map (when not fighting) but I don't save during fights. I also don't reload unless I die.

For some reason, if I don't save this way, I don't feel comfortable. And although I don't feel guilty, I do feel like a complete noob.

The only time I saved mid-battle was during my play-through of Archnids

[Captain Red]

Has anyone ever made a mod with alternative penlites for death in doom? I know there's 'mandoom' that erases your saves, but is there anything else?

[joe-ilya]

Sexual appeal from saving? WTF memfis?

[Dave The Daring]

scifista42 said:

That ranking system would be unfair to the numerous players who don't play an entire game in one sitting (don't have time, mood or whatever), and instead they use saves when quitting the game so that they can continue the next day (week, month, an evening, whenever).

I can think of a few ways around this, but at the end of the day, no system is perfect. I just feel this method would be better than checkpoints.

One thing I think this thread has shown, is that although Doom players are allowed to save anywhere and as often as they like, we nonetheless experience a certain degree of guilt every time we do so. I can manage a small degree of guilt, but I'd have a hard time dealing with the frustration caused by limiting my ability to save my game.

[Patrol1985]

It's all about balancing entertainment and difficulty. If you get your kicks out of a challenge, go for no-save runs. If you enjoy the game with save-scumming, by all means do that. That's your enjoyment and your free time.

I balance both approaches, I usually save when it's APPARENT I'm about to be ambushed i.e.: you enter an empty room with a lone keycard sitting on the floor in the very middle.... you know the drill ;)

However, once in a while I will also do some no-save runs. I still remember the first time I beat E4M2 on UV -fast from pistol start and with no saving. Seriously, the heart pounding and the smile on my face shortly before hitting the exit switch - my personal best Doom experience ever! :D

[Maes]

If anything, the OP should explain the appeal of playing without. Unless you're trying to record a demo or like to play everything in a strict Survival style.

[scifista42]

Maes said:

If anything, the OP should explain the appeal of playing without. Unless you're trying to record a demo or like to play everything in a strict Survival style.

That's probably exactly how Memfis plays all the time, I'd bet. Also, he's really good at the game. I can imagine that he prefers shorter and action-packed levels, where all the fun lies in challenge. I can't reliably speak for Memfis of course, I just wanted to say that I find the "appeal of playing without saves" understandable from the point of view of a good player (which I'm not) or a short-map player.

[40oz]

I forgot to take into consideration that loading a game in vanilla doom deactivates all the monsters that were once chasing you. Sometimes nullifying teleport traps and other situations that depended on the monsters being somewhere at the right time.

[Salt-Man Z]

Maes said:

If anything, the OP should explain the appeal of playing without. Unless you're trying to record a demo or like to play everything in a strict Survival style.

^ This. When you're discussing a game that plays out of the box in continuous mode with saves, I kind of feel like the "burden of proof" (if you will) is on the no-savers and/or pistol-starters.

[Olroda]

Maes said:

If anything, the OP should explain the appeal of playing without.

I may not be the Original Poster, but I thought I might chime in anyways.

In short, it's the challenge. At least for me.

I've played without reloading after death for several years now. Not just DooM, but other games as well.
Nothing beats the tension of knowing that it will all be over, should I screw up. Also, reloading when something goes wrong (oh no, I wasted too much ammo / lost too much health, etc.) breeds inefficiency. Without consequences, how can one improve?
If you save every minute, and reload at the first sign of trouble, doesn't the game devolve to an Instant Gratification Generator™, suitable only for people who are too weak to face any obstacle?

[TimeOfDeath]

Yeah, for people who have never played without saves, give it a try for a nice challenge. It'll only make you better at Doom.

[Aaron Blain]

I think infinite quicksaves are an enormously dysfunctional feature. A game shouldn't have player-enforced, vaguely-defined difficulty. That's like saying it's poor sportsmanship to press the fire button too rapidly in Galaga.

My problem is that level rehearsal and memorization is an equally dysfunctional feature.

Whichever approach you choose, the challenge will be inevitably deflated and cheapened.

[Capellan]

People play with saves (like me) or without, depending on what is most fun for them. It's pretty much that simple. :)

What is most fun can vary from game to game, though. For instance, I play Minecraft solely in hardcore mode, which means if I die my world gets deleted, whereas in Doom I quick save every couple of minutes (though still not as much as I do in Word :) )

[Memfis]

Maes said:

If anything, the OP should explain the appeal of playing without.

I used to play with saves years ago. Then I heard about FDAs so I tried recording some. I felt like at that moment I played Doom "for real" for the first time. That thrill, that excitement was uncomparable to anything else Doom could offer. It became the most important part of the game for me. So I can't understand savers anymore.

[Magnusblitz]

I hate having to replay huge chunks of a level because of one momentary screw-up (even worse is when it's not my 'fault' but something unfair in the level design). I don't want Doom to be easy, but at the same time, I don't play it for the challenge... I play other video games against humans for that.