Explain the appeal of playing with saves

[Aaron Blain]

Memfis said:

I used to play with saves years ago. Then I heard about FDAs so I tried recording some. I felt like at that moment I played Doom "for real" for the first time. That thrill, that excitement was uncomparable to anything else Doom could offer. It became the most important part of the game for me. So I can't understand savers anymore.

This is the outlook I'd like to have.

The problem is that map design so often seems to take quicksaving and foreknowledge for granted. I try to play savelessly, then I encounter some ambush that kills me, I restart the level and feel that the level has been "spoiled" for me irretrievably.

So many times I've stepped into an archvile trap, reloaded my game and been ready with a bfg that is halfway discharged before the archvile is even aggroed, because I know exactly when and where he's going to pop out. I hate this sequence of events so much.

Do you play different styles of maps that lend themselves more to this approach? Do you play on a lower difficulty? I'm sure you're also just much better at the game than I am, in no small part because of your refusal to save.

[Maes]

Macblain said:

So many times I've stepped into an archvile trap, reloaded my game and been ready with a bfg that is halfway discharged before the archvile is even aggroed, because I know exactly when and where he's going to pop out. I hate this sequence of events so much.

This can go to disheartening extremes if you want ToD's PPPP.WAD built-in demo. It goes to the point of firing a BFG so that the ball meets EXACTLY the monsters the moment they teleport in a trap, all in one seamless run.

[Touchdown]

Some people like to admire the level design and experience the gameplay without having to worry about 'beating it'. Some people don't like replaying stuff over and over. Some people don't have time to replay stuff over and over. Some people are not all about 'teh challenge'.

I use saves all the time, primarily to prevent losing 30min of progress. I don't savescum unless the fight pisses me off. If I want to challange myself, I might replay a level without saving later on but I never do it on the first playthrough because the overall experience is more important to me.

[scifista42]

Macblain said:

[to Memfis] Do you play different styles of maps that lend themselves more to this approach? Do you play on a lower difficulty? I'm sure you're also just much better at the game than I am, in no small part because of your refusal to save.

Memfis is a pro-skilled speedrunner, Macblain. If only you watched his demos, maybe you'd suddenly understand it all...

[Enjay]

Memfis said:

Explain the appeal of playing with saves

Having to go back to the start of a big level and repeat everything that you have done up to that point is dull and unnecessary IMO.

I'm quite happy to chop the map up into little sections by saving. I don't feel the need to complete a map in a single sitting so I don't see why I shouldn't save as and when I like.

As for the retrying the same fight meaning you can't lose... well, retrying the same map until you complete it is just that same thing IMO; just a riskier, longer, duller way of doing it (again IMO). The only true way to counter this would be to load up a map once and, if you don't beat it, delete it and never play it again because you already lost, so why try again? ;)

[scifista42]

^The best and wisest explanation in the whole thread - IMO. ;)

[Demon of the Well]

Speaking as primarily a non-saver, the appeal that I see in the practice (of not saving) is mainly that it increases not just the tension, but also the thrill of danger, and the euphoria of victory. This isn't simply a question of merely increasing overall difficulty, mind you, although this is a side-effect of the practice in some maps. As I see it, rather than simply making a map potentially take longer to overcome (thus wringing extra mileage out of a finite asset, I suppose), the real change that not saving offers is that it tends to put a premium on on-the-fly adaptability, flexibility, and improvisation on the player's part; without the safety-net of being able to conveniently repeat a discrete section of a level until a favorable result is achieved, one is left to roll with the punches and organically adapt to the flow of the game, from times when the momentum is firmly on the player's side to those when s/he is being pushed to the edge of defeat, and back again. It's very satisfying to overcome something 'unrehearsed' through a combination of skill, learned strategy, ingenuity, reflex, and perhaps a bit of luck, especially when things go pear-shaped on you (or when you just plain fuck something up). Some of the finest moments I've had in my many years of playing the game have involved me getting myself into a very bad situation, and then managing to extricate myself from it again (or even just almost managing to extricate myself from it), all with my whole game riding on the line, as opposed to the last 3 minutes of it. Perhaps one could reasonably argue that this is a cheap trick for manufacturing emotional investment, but cheap or not, it sure is effective, let me tell you.

Of course, you can still develop and apply strategies using savegames, still feel the ebb and flow of the action with that safety-net in place, and still appreciate the nuances of a diabolical combat encounter with the ability to immediately retry and overcome it while losing only seconds of elapsed progress, and I wouldn't try to argue otherwise. I simply find that all of these sensations are that much more pronounced, and that my investment in the adventure is that much deeper, when I don't save. For me, the risk of defeat, and the lost progress and the eventual repetition that goes with it, is a small price to pay for that thrill, in part because of the risk, not merely in spite of it. I will also attribute a significant part of my growth as a player over the years to the practice of no/minimal saving--again, having to organically adapt to the ups and downs of combat without the ability to conveniently fish for a better result fosters flexibility, and having more flexibility not only improves your basic skills (which in turn makes constantly facing lost progress due to death less of an issue), but more crucially, over time it also opens the door to more maps of more styles (e.g. you learn how to deal with Tyson-style maps or maps with a lot of platforming by confronting those situations in other maps without the ability to brute-force through them via the load function), which ultimately translates into more enjoyment of the game and the wide world of PWADs.

Naturally, the key is to try to find out what balance of saving/not saving works best for you personally, and go with that. Both practices have their upsides; I don't think anyone would really argue that the ability to preserve progress that the save function affords is without a great deal of merit wholly apart from its ability to make the game easier to win--however bottomless my patience might be, my time and stamina are sadly not so bottomless, and so on occasion I will use a savegame despite generally being a non-saver (most often in maps I've played before; I will almost always try to beat something without saving on the first few attempts, no matter its length/difficulty). Similarly, if you habitually make very heavy/frequent usage of savegames, you might be well-served in experimenting with cutting back a bit; presumably if you're posting here you enjoy playing the game enough that the prospect of having to repeat parts of a decent level after death shouldn't seem TOO much of a horrible fate, and you might be surprised at how much easier it is to become immersed in the action/environment if you're not interrupting it with self-checkpointing every few minutes.

[Antroid]

I usually try a map for the first time without any saves, and maybe a couple times more, but if I see that there's a part that keeps tripping me up I start giving myself checkpoints in places where I'd imagine checkpoints would happen if they were built-in. Usually after some noticeable achievements, like clearing out an area or something. Or finishing a part that I feel I got down and memorized, because it offers no real challenge anymore.

I like the increased tension of playing without saves because the penalty for dying is stronger this way (and it is something I REALLY do not want to happen to me), but then again it's almost inevidable that I do die at some point if the map is long and challenging enough (which most are), and then not saving since the start means I'm that much less likely to enjoy the map on replay, because having to redo parts that I have down again and again is too tedious even for me, a big self-proclaimed fan of tedious parts in games. So I try to balance it in such a way that I have the danger of dying and losing enough progress that I fear it, and making a safety net so that I actually have the will to retry. Although you can not save and just retry the level much later, next day or something. That would work too. Really, this is a dilemma without a best solution, in my opinion.

Then again, playing Sonar on UV without having saved for about an hour or so (can't remember by this point) was probably the most exhilirating Doom expirience of my life. But that was allowed to happen because I was lucky enough to not die too long into the level before eventually saving. It's just a risk that you can take depending on how manageable you feel the map is gonna be like.

[Varis Alpha]

i play to have fun, and i don't see the fun in having to replay large parts of a level because of a simple mistake, or underestimation of the enemy's strength. mind, i don't save everytime i get the opportunity for it, but sometimes it helps ease the frustration of having to do everything all over again.

[Devalaous]

Theres only so much time in a day, and I have better things to do than waste half an hour or more dying somewhere random and doing everything again. I save frequently at key points in levels to avoid wasting my time. I still get just as much of a rush when I beat some crazy encounter, I just get past it faster because I don't, you know, HAVE TO REPEAT A LEVEL 50 TIMES TO COMPLETE ONE HARD SPOT. I would have thrown the game away if I as ever forced to do that, tedium is NOT a good gameplay aspect.

[wesleyjohnson]

I can play Doom in several "modes", with or without saving.

I was playing through DoomII at UV, not getting hit at all, up to about level 5. Then I got hit a few times, switched from "No hits", to "Hit and Heal" mode. Then I got ambushed and died, and had no saved games.
That would not work for me unless I did not care that much about continuing, but I have played DoomII a couple times before.

With most new maps, I have an excuse: "If the map cheats, I cheat".
This means when the level map is illogical, or trappy, I change modes to get what I can from the map. I do not play beat-the-challenge, or ha-ha-my-trap-is-neat kind of play.

Not using savegames is about trusting the mapper. When the level map is reasonably logical, I can play without them. You trust that the mapper will not kill you unreasonably. When you lose trust of the mapper you cannot play as if your life was on the line. Then you must save before entering any room, or any time you come near a key.

I hate it when a level map appears reasonable, and I do not have any savegames, and then a nasty trap near the exit is sprung to kill me off. I don't think I even bothered to try that map again.

I have played through maps, with inadequate savegames. About the fifth restart I cannot remember what parts of the map I have visited. This often leads to exiting the map without the powerups or some other prize, simply because I got them previously but died.

[The_MártonJános]

Memfis said:

If after death you can just load a savegame and instantly retry the same fight, that pretty much means that you can't lose and there's nothing to worry about.

Exactly. I don't see what's the problem about it.

[Varis Alpha]

doesn't that apply to non-save runs too, though? you die from a fight in that, you have to do it + the rest of the level all over again. you can't lose, since you can retry the same level over and over again. saves just save you the frustration of having to do everything else PLUS that one spot again.

[Demon of the Well]

wesleyjohnson said:

Not using savegames is about trusting the mapper.

I reckon it's about trusting yourself, foremost, and also perhaps about being willing to hold yourself accountable for your mistakes. "That was unfair!!!!" is the ancestral battlecry of Murphys and Fifes everywhere. ;)

[myk]

Doomhuntress said:
doesn't that apply to non-save runs too, though? you die from a fight in that, you have to do it + the rest of the level all over again. you can't lose, since you can retry the same level over and over again. saves just save you the frustration of having to do everything else PLUS that one spot again.

You lose your equipment. The respawned character can also be seen as a new person coming back to a restocked level. With saves, you more or less write a linear narrative with one character, linked by all the successful save points in your trajectory.

As for fun, it depends on where the focus is. If it's in visiting virtual places, you might as well save. If it's the challenge or immersion in an experience, saving starts to lose its appeal. In the "immersion" because you meddle with the characters fate with a meta-game device by loading saves.

[SuperflyJohnson]

I'm not a fan of restarting a level without my stuff so I tend to savescum. I suffer from severe Backpack Separation Anxiety.

On the other hand it always struck me a bit odd how Doomguy loses his inventory between episodes in D1; given that, perhaps it can be argued that there is some kind of precedent or justification for abiding by the level restart rules instead of savescumming.

[purist]

I noticed Jimmy and Alfonzo ironmanning Jenesis on Twitch, which is one death and your game is over and takes no saving to the logical extreme. I tried it on Doom and managed to die in Spawning Vats because I was on low health and forgot those blue lights were damaging. It was a fun way to revisit a map set that is familiar to you.

@Cell, also did an iron man on Hadephobia as this is the most familiar PWAD to me for obvious reasons. Got to your MAP07 and died at the exit. I wanted to save plasma so I let the last Arch vile out so I could rocket him from range - but I'd forgotten there was a spectre in there with him and he ran out first just as I began to open fire! I bet that's the only time that particular spectre has been responsible for a players death, haha.

[Aaron Blain]

Touchdown said:

Some people like to admire the level design and experience the gameplay without having to worry about 'beating it'. Some people don't like replaying stuff over and over. Some people don't have time to replay stuff over and over. Some people are not all about 'teh challenge'.

'teh challenge' is the real beauty of the game for me: the movements, behaviors, the patterns, the decision-making, the tension and danger and and risk-taking. The events that emerge and take shape and create narrative.

I think I understand the sort of pleasure you're describing, though, which I see as a little more akin to Spyro the Dragon or Fez. I think that's a real and valid aesthetic imaginative experience worth pursuing in Doom. I'd love to see maps that were about exploring the terrain and collecting hundreds of doodads, in which combat was only incidental and the real goal was just to engage with the architecture and experience it.

[Optimus]

I used to do this sin a lot. It's ok if you save halfway but I was saving every few seconds at some times. I was in a hurry to test new maps and I didn't want to waste time by having to play again. Sometimes when I forget to save frequently I am like "Oh no? Where was the last save now?".

But yeah, it's more interesting to play without saves. Especially new maps you don't know what to expect. Doom doesn't seem like a hard game to me today, I can easily storm through the whole game UV, especially because I know every secret and trap and can always be kick ass at near 200% health and armor. It's not even that hard in user levels, of course you can take a bad root or miss the back wall opening with heavy gunners behind (those fuckers!) and go from 100% to 10% but then it's interesting trying to avoid enemies and search for health and stuff. Except is slaughter maps, I don't particularly like them. They force me to save/load excessively and you can even make the mistake to save exactly when a fatal projectile hits you from behind.

I would love an autosave feature. I think Zdoom has but it only saves in the beginnnings of each level? (So if you die, at least you don't start with pistol only). How about maps where there are 2-3 distinctive autosave points just after you get a key or you get in a major new area. Then level mappers would add autosave in specific points. Or is this already here?

[The_MártonJános]

purist said:

@Cell, also did an iron man on Hadephobia as this is the most familiar PWAD to me for obvious reasons. Got to your MAP07 and died at the exit. I wanted to save plasma so I let the last Arch vile out so I could rocket him from range - but I'd forgotten there was a spectre in there with him and he ran out first just as I began to open fire! I bet that's the only time that particular spectre has been responsible for a players death, haha.

That should've been quite embarrassing, haha.

[Dime]

Normally i just make the distinction that I must complete an area before I save. If it's an arena battle, it will be done from start to finish before I can save.

I went from a non-saver to a saver just because it's way too tedious for viewers to watch complete map redo's over and over from my experience.

[Platinum Shell]

Personally, I like mixing it up. Periodic saves throughout a level, saving at level start (mild level restart), or going with the game's default level restart with a pistol and 50 rounds (which I'm getting more into, and having a blast with it). There's also the great usefulness of being able to 'suspend your adventure' whenever the need arises.

It's all about what works for you. We all have different schedules, different lives, different expectations out of games, causing us all to have varying views on challenges. Personally, my biggest beef is no way to 'concrete' the punishments that go with the play style you've chosen; back in the early days of Minecraft survival, I was discussing with others on their thoughts on a difficulty lock and many were on board, and others said it was a stupid idea and that it should not have a lock or an otherwise force that kept the difficulty the same. Sure enough, a couple years or so later that very thing was implemented. If ((G)Z) Doom or any other port for that matter had a feature like that, I'd pretty much be golden with Doom. The biggest thing I'm trying to shy away from is pistol starting every map, regardless of whether I played it before or not. It's made the game much easier in some ways, especially with resourcefulness.

In short, do you. But also experiment with some other play styles to see how you like them; you might change your general play style altogether!

[Krazov]

Playing with a frequent saving allows me to feel like Nicholas Cage in “Next.”

[Touchdown]

Macblain said:

'teh challenge' is the real beauty of the game for me: the movements, behaviors, the patterns, the decision-making, the tension and danger and and risk-taking. The events that emerge and take shape and create narrative.

I think I understand the sort of pleasure you're describing, though, which I see as a little more akin to Spyro the Dragon or Fez. I think that's a real and valid aesthetic imaginative experience worth pursuing in Doom. I'd love to see maps that were about exploring the terrain and collecting hundreds of doodads, in which combat was only incidental and the real goal was just to engage with the architecture and experience it.

I didn't mean devoid of challenge, though. But I'm more interested in the 'experience' part rather than calculated difficulty. I prefer stuff that makes me say "that was a really cool encounter!" rather than "oh, thank goodness, this shit is finally over".