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Glaice

Michigan passes bill that will let EMTs deny treatment to GLBT people

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/MindBlown

Seriously, fuck you Jase Bolger, you good for nothing lowlife GOP scumbag. Is this how we are still going to be in almost fucking 2015? Seriously? Come on America, you know better than this sort of shit.

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Well they're not doctors. They never took an oath or anything. I know quite a few EMTs. The stories they tell aren't good.

Why just GLBT? Because they could have aides or is it because its a disease like alcoholism that you can catch like that writer for Orange is the New Black? Remember the days when white EMTs couldn't treat dem coloured folk?

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Mah Bible tells me dem gays should be put to death for their sins... So is my religious freedom protected if I actively try to kill 'em, rather than just let them die?

Seriously though, WTF? I just... I can't even wrap my mind around how idiotic this is. Man, you gotta love some people's mentality though... killing in the name of Christianity - oh but dem Muslims is the bad ones. What? Okay okay, gotta stop before my head explodes.

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You make it sound like the bill is specifically about EMTs and LGBT people, but from what I gather reading the PDFs on the site you linked it's about giving people the right to discriminate in their job in accordance to their religious beliefs.

Which is fucked up either way, don't get me wrong. I just can't help but chuckle at the scapegoating of those eeevil christians for theoretical future wrongdoings, when in real world cases you just know public opinion would crack down so hard on them. It's often minorities who are in a position to exploit the loopholes safely, because ironically they can scream discrimination if you don't let them discriminate.

i.e. if I had a nickel everytime I've seen a hardcore Jew or Muslim refuse to work with women in my country... Well... I'd have about a dollar or two, because thankfully there aren't that many, but that's still infinitely more than the zero EMTs refusing treatment to people I've met in my life.

Besides, how do you tell someone is gay while he's unconscious and bleeding out? Is there a gaydar in the standard ambulance package nowadays? Do you make people sign a form in which they specify their sexual preferences before you administer CPR?

Dude, being an EMT isn't exactly cozy. Bigots aren't lining up to get in that line of work. It's a thankless job, you're underpaid, and most of the people you deal with are loonies or scammers. Most EMTs do it because they have a calling to help people, and nobody makes it long without developing some sort of coping mechanism which more or less involves hating *everyone* equally, not any particular group.

Well, there might be one particular group that gets more hate than others... but it doesn't have anything to do with religion, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation. That group, my good sir, would be fatties. Lugging a 400lbs dude around in narrow hallways - happy fun times. You need more people. He won't fit comfortably on the stretcher. Most equipment simply isn't built for people that size. You also have specific, extra medical concerns related to weight. Everything just becomes exponentially harder.

And yet, despite the wreckage of broken spines these people leave in their wake, do you see EMTs refusing to treat morbidly obese people? Do you, now? OK, you will see some shuffling of feet and groaning behind backs. That's about it.

What were we talking about again... Oh right, gay people. Because who you bone is everyone's biggest concern in a life or death situation. Because it's not like people who work in any medical field are overall more detached about the human body and more likely to explore alternate sexualities than the average.

Hate to break it to this lusciously bearded young man and his pristine video game collection, but lacking any hands on experience, perhaps he could at the very least Google what a SOCMOB is and immerse himself in the atmosphere for a while before going on a crusade.

And yes I'm aware how dumb the nerd card sounds especially from me of all people, but damn this dude needs some perspective, stat.

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The bill isn't about gay people or EMTs. It's about all jobs, from what I gather. Some idiot with too much time on his hands played the "what if..." game and wrote an article on the worst-case scenario. Not that I support the bill. Honestly, I'm just tired of the bullshit coming from every direction. This is just alarmist crap and you better believe mudslinging like this comes from the right and the left parties.

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And exactly how are EMT going to know whether somebody is gay? Will there be compulsory filing/registration/marking?






Will they only spot the obvious cases? E.g. people dressed like this?







What if they are just people going at a Village People impersonators' party?

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Maes said:

And exactly how are EMT going to know whether somebody is gay?


The obvious answer would be to just ask them, but of course that falls apart when you realize that should they actually be capable of talking (which isn't the case for a lot of people in need of EMT rescue), they could just blatantly fib about their sexuality until they get to the hospital. Figures that a bass-ackwards bill like this would come from Michigan, of all places. #Ohio

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Gay people like to stay on the gaydar. Put out the vibe. Let everyone know. If they didn't have parades, they'd just be telling strangers on the street. The same with Vegans.

The gay lisp is an interesting one. Its like they can't have their own voice.

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Linkrulezall said:

The obvious answer would be to just ask them




...yeah, that'd probably go down well.

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Sad part is Michigan will be the first of many states to pass a law like this. The US as a whole has a bad habit of taking small steps forward in terms of ending discrimination, only to take a giant leap backwards.

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To clear things up a bit, the bill is about "protecting the healthcare practicioners' religious freedom".

Now, I knew that Islam does have specific codified discriminations versus Christians, Jews and Pagans (with Christians and Jews being surprisingly quite well tolerated). Where does it say on the Bible that it's A-OK to ignore the lives of those belonging a specific group (other than your enemy in war)?

What if the EMTs are actually Jihadi Islamists, and actually kill any injured Americans they happen to collect? After all, it's what their religion tells them....

Then again, the way I see it, this is yet another side of the coin of "conditional kindness". For example, if you were an organ donor, would you attach a condition that your organs are NOT to be donated to specific individuals that you dislike, e.g. personal enemies, competitors, politicians? I would, because the idea that I could help rescue our current politicians with my life would make me cringe.

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/table/tbl2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

Here are some disturbing statistics about physicians in the United States. I always assumed doctors were predominately agnostic or atheist. But according to this government report, 58% of physicians agree strongly with the phrase:

"I try hard to carry my religious beliefs over into all my other dealings in life"

76% of doctors believe in God.

59% of doctors believe in life after death

Only 23% are neither religious nor spiritual

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Your point being? Are you trying to imply hatred of gays to the point you'd let them bleed to death is a commonly held religious belief?

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Phml said:

Your point being?


I'm just posting the fact that I was surprised that doctors are 76% religious, when I assumed they were mostly atheist. Since the bill is intended to "protect the religious freedom" of the doctors, I was curious as to how many doctors were actually religious. Turns out it was a lot.

Phml said:

Are you trying to imply hatred of gays to the point you'd let them bleed to death is a commonly held religious belief?


No, I'm not actually. You're a fool to suggest that. Especially, since I've made absolutely no implication of that. Are you trying to become Daniel Pantaleo of the thought-police?

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Topic is about blowing a random bill out of proportion picking a worst case scenario to badmouth a profession of hard workers. You post out of nowhere about DISTURBING statistics regarding physicians. You're very much making an implication having strong religious beliefs is "disturbing" here. Given the context of this topic and how ludicrously stupid this opinion already is, I'm asking how far are you going with that.

Asking, not accusing. You call me the thought police, and yet you're the one who sees nefarious intent in the sentence "I try hard to carry my religious beliefs over into all my other dealings in life" to the point you have to call it disturbing, or in a question asking you to clarify your needlessly vague musings to the point you have to call it foolish.

If all you meant was that you're surprised, well carry on I guess.

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Phml said:

Topic is about blowing a random bill out of proportion picking a worst case scenario to badmouth a profession of hard workers. You post out of nowhere about DISTURBING statistics regarding physicians. You're very much making an implication having strong religious beliefs is "disturbing" here. Given the context of this topic and how ludicrously stupid this opinion already is, I'm asking how far are you going with that.

Asking, not accusing. You call me the thought police, and yet you're the one who sees nefarious intent in the sentence "I try hard to carry my religious beliefs over into all my other dealings in life" to the point you have to call it disturbing, or in a question asking you to clarify your needlessly vague musings to the point you have to call it foolish.


Well, I should mention that I thought you accused me of implying that they would have hatred of gays to the point they'd let them bleed to death is a commonly held religious belief.

No, I don't think it is. At least it not really articulated like that. Perhaps they feel consolation in the belief that they will burn in hell for eternity.

What I find disturbing is that physicians "try hard to carry [their] religious beliefs over into all [their] other dealings in life". Yes you're right.

Perhaps many of them don't take it to dangerous extremes. Maybe they simply want to act benevolently by helping people, when they claim that sentence. However, its undeniable that some of them do in fact take it to dangerous extremes. I have an issue with religious values being used to access real life or death situations. Nevertheless, you're right about it being hypocritical to call you thought-police, when I have these reservations about religion. Its impossible to stop people from believing in what they want. Further, its wrong to attempt to stop them as well; just as long as it doesn't negatively impact others.

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I think you're overestimating the number of religious people who have an evil agenda (even if not formulated this way) and simply don't act on it, and I feel it's dehumanizing. Believing in magical sky people doesn't remove all ability for empathy; and very few people, religious or otherwise, would be so cold they could watch someone else die in front of them and feel nothing, or worse, happiness.

I guess I can see your point regarding extremism, but it's a sore topic for me when people who dedicate their lives to helping others, often at great cost to their personal health (burnout/depression/suicide rates are HUGE in EMTs, and fairly high in physicians as a whole), are assumed to have purposefully negligent to the point of being murderous intents, based on "what ifs".

I mean, it would be nice to see people more often voice their appreciation for all the good doctors do, rather than the bad they might. Just today I was taking a blood exam, and while I was in the waiting room some woman comes barging in and yells/groans "WHERE ARE MY TEST RESULTS?" So the receptionist is a bit taken aback by her rudeness, but she replies politely, says hello, gives her her results. "DOES THAT MEAN I'LL HAVE TO DO [whatever]" -> you'll have to ask your doctor, ma'am; then the ogress exists stage, no "goodbye" no nothing, still groaning loudly like the entire universe should bow down to her whim.

And I was there for all of ten minutes. You see people like that day in, day out. It might be one out of ten, but the sheer volume means you have to deal with jerks daily, which OK isn't exclusive to doctors, but doctors also have to help jerks daily, they bust their gut keeping them breathing. It's just so infuriating to see the amount of crap doctors have to deal with. That is to say I'm probably too touchy about this today, sorry, shouldn't take it out on you.

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It seems more likely this will provide another layer of protection to those scumbag doctors who refuse to have anything to do with birth control or abortions.

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geo said:

Gay people like to stay on the gaydar. Put out the vibe. Let everyone know. If they didn't have parades, they'd just be telling strangers on the street. The same with Vegans.

This is a bit of a generalization. Most people assume I'm married to a dude, and I only occasionally show up on someone's gaydar. I know quite a few other gay people who are the same way.

Maes said:

And exactly how are EMT going to know whether somebody is gay? Will there be compulsory filing/registration/marking?

Most medical personnel never find out I'm gay unless I show up at the ER with my wife. But they usually find out I'm trans pretty quick since they're always curious why I've never had a period (and asking when your last one was is a standard question for women). And just as the bill could allow someone to refuse treatment to someone who's gay, that could include someone who's trans.

As the Snopes link explained, it's not directly banning the treatment of LGBT people. It's allowing an individual to refuse to treat someone who's a gender or sexual minority. So to me, it's similar to what was happening in... was it Arizona? There was that state where they were going to pass a law letting businesses discriminate against people based on that business's owner's religious beliefs.

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Kontra Kommando said:

Here are some disturbing statistics about physicians in the United States. I always assumed doctors were predominately agnostic or atheist. But according to this government report, 58% of physicians agree strongly with the phrase:

"I try hard to carry my religious beliefs over into all my other dealings in life"

76% of doctors believe in God.

59% of doctors believe in life after death

Only 23% are neither religious nor spiritual

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

I'd be surprised if the beliefs and values of the communities they've grown up in weren't reflected to some extent in America's doctors, unless religious deprogramming is one of the prerequisites for a medical diploma.

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I never understood why the almighty so-called "Patriot Act" was never repealed, including all of the ilk that follows. When powers are granted to the executive branch, rarely is the frequency in which they are given back to the public.

This is just additional bullshit violation of private liberties.

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geo said:

Gay people like to stay on the gaydar. Put out the vibe. Let everyone know. If they didn't have parades, they'd just be telling strangers on the street. The same with Vegans.

The gay lisp is an interesting one. Its like they can't have their own voice.


If you met me I very much doubt you'd ever know I was in a same sex relationship.

Silly bill, really.

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This is one of those things that doesn't really change anything, but it gets tossed on the slippery slope until it's eventually blown up as this terrible thing. Meanwhile, Michigan also did this, but since it isn't a topic isn't exactly trending everywhere, no one wants to jump on the slope to see how this can go horrifically wrong. Thankfully they're at least willing to test this one out before they figure out how broken it could get the hard way.

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I don't like this bill (which has not been passed yet, contrarily to what the title says), not because of its potential for discrimination against GBLT people but because of the broader picture, of which the potential for legalized homophobia is just one part: it allows prejudices mired in superstition to be elevated above the laws of the land.

LGBT people are not the only potential victims here.

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Satyr000 said:

They are simply legalizing what they have been doing illegally for years.


That's why its heinous! Every crazy tin-hat guy who ever said "the government is spying on us" was right XD

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