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cannonball

Ultimate Doom In Name Only [Limit Removing] - In the final stages

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23 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

 

If you have an idea, I say go for it and see what you come up with—the slot was originally yours after all. I have something in mind for the start, but no gameplay hook has come to me yet, especially since I want something more laid back and stress-free given that E3M7 is wedged between Heels' maps.

 

I honestly have a better idea for E1M7 of all things.

It wouldn't surprise me if you did get the opportunity to do this. However I would rather let the end of May pass just in case. I was wondering what a Dobu concept map using computer textures would look like.

 

I will do some work on E1M4 this weekend, along with my E1M9 that I feel could use some TLC.

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^ Yup yup, agreed. I actually tried to claim the E1M7 slot some years back but relinquished it, so I suppose my brain hasn't let that go. Plus I'm excited on doing something that shakes up the stereotypical E1 gameplay.

 

In the meantime I'll see if E2M4 needs any adjustments.

 

15 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

but I do want it to be a fight, nonetheless... So we'll see how it goes...

 

I'd like to take a gander, if you wouldn't mind. I know me and you have butt heads before over E3M6 so I'm curious whether or not this will be trickier.

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On 5/20/2021 at 6:04 AM, Magnusblitz said:

I might have some free time to take a whirl this weekend. But of course if dobu would like to do something else it's all his.


If you are still up for this, then take a shot. Just one request, can you keep this short please. Firstly to break up the episode a bit and secondly it might become part of something bigger, just brainstorming in my mind at the moment though.

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For the sake of things; here are updates to E1M9 and E1M6

 

Changes

E1M9 - Altered both the red and yellow key areas, the yellow key being the most substantial.

- Some visual tidying up here and there

- Difficulty settings added to the map

E1M6 - A slight alteration of one secret

- Difficulty settings added

 

E1M6 - CB.zip

E1M9 - CB.zip

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I've been actively folding all of updates into the next UDINO alpha, including my own little fixes FYI. Once we have the last few maps added to it I can post it.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, cannonball said:

E2M4 - The author hasn't been on here in a long while, I think a few alterations towards the end could be beneficial

 

Which alterations would you want to be added? I thought the map was fine given what it is—it ends on a bit of a dull note (get yellow key->open yellow door->kill 4 imps & exit) but it's kind of a single note map so I wasn't exactly expecting too much.

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2 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

I've been actively folding all of updates into the next UDINO alpha, including my own little fixes FYI. Once we have the last few maps added to it I can post it.

 

 

Which alterations would you want to be added? I thought the map was fine given what it is—it ends on a bit of a dull note (get yellow key->open yellow door->kill 4 imps & exit) but it's kind of a single note map so I wasn't exactly expecting too much.

 

I'm not sure, the only real worthwhile combat is that big fight after the red key door, the incidental combat at the start and those after that fight don't really add that much. The question is do we strip this combat away or perhaps think of something else (This would apply more to after the yellow key has been obtained). I really don't like having a simple wall of five imps blocking the exit switch (No threat whatsoever).

 

On another note, I have started the tidying process of E1M4. Hopefully it won’t take that long.

Edited by cannonball : Added E1M4 details

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Here we go... Had a few people test it, they found it too tricky overall, so I made it easier... Then I made Dobu rage a little at a switch, so I left it as is... ;-)

 

Thing placement is identical on all skill settings, but the timers for the monster closets vary based on difficulty, with UV being the setting where you need to be the fastest... numbers can be changed and so on... Oh yeah, the map can be maxed, but only if you're good at damage boosting...

 

udino_E3M8_v0.6.zip

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I'm assuming the objective is to get to the top switches (near the BFGs), hit the switch to lower the spiderdemon cage, jump off across the black platform to the flesh platform, fire a few rockets, then run the circuit again?

 

You can get a bit of a headstart by running up to the zombiemen and letting them kill each other, then sneaking by without firing a shot. Not that it helped me any, of course, but food for thought to switching them to imps. The skill changes don't really make a difference IMO, because the biggest issue isn't the imps and barons teleporting in, it's the cyberdemons (though maybe I just suck). Is it intended to have the player sit there and take them out, or just avoid/ignore them while making the circuit? Hmm, I guess you could make them infight with the barons...

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You can either use rockets, which may be cutting it a bit too close, or punch out a BFG round or two, which is more promising imo...

 

If the cyb there at the switch is a problem, go counter-clock-wise and bait out a salvo so you know what's coming when, instead of bumrushing the switch and getting ass-blasted...

 

The cybs respawn, also it is time consuming to kill them all... Likewise, baiting the zombies to infight might backfire, because while you wait to get one cheap shot off, the timer already runs against you... so it's not really worth it...

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^I have taken a look at E3M8, I haven't yet beaten it, hopefully I will get the chance for a proper play this weekend.

 

Moving on, here is an updated E1M4

Changes - General visual changes throughout, however I tried to keep a lot of the aesthetics as close to what the original was like. As promised I cleared the doorways for the most part.

- A few minor changes to the combat, the imps at the start were replaced by lost souls, two extra monster closets (Red key and in the dark area).

- The dark section has no available exit once you enter, you now need to hit a switch to access the exit which I think will help to emphasise the usage of darkness and spectres here.

- I mixed up how the secrets are obtained as the original were all simple misaligned secret doors. 

 

E1M4 - Stewboy et al.zip

 

Overall the map is still on the easy side, however this was something I didn't want to adjust too much unless others think it is worthwhile to do so.

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Decent changes cannonball. Map is definitely on the easy side, but dunno if I'm too bothered by that—can be fun to just blast through a map in 10 minutes. Only real problem I think is that UDINO gets extraordinarily difficult by its end, but I don't know if we want to take time to tweak E1 to get it more in line with the other maps. Could be fine being a really, really easy episode in comparison. 

 

As for me, I've just been polishing up my Doomcute skills.

 

oS9DIQQ.jpg

 

I have a better ending battle in mind and have already touched up the visuals elsewhere on the map.

Edited by dobu gabu maru

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5 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

Decent changes cannonball. Map is definitely on the easy side, but dunno if I'm too bothered by that—can be fun to just blast through a map in 10 minutes. Only real problem I think is that UDINO gets extraordinarily difficult by its end, but I don't know if we want to take time to tweak E1 to get it more in line with the other maps. Could be fine being a really, really easy episode in comparison. 

 

As for me, I've just been polishing up my Doomcute skills.

 

oS9DIQQ.jpg

 

I have a better ending battle in mind and have already touched up the visuals elsewhere on the map.

I’ve tended to veer more towards violent, but with the odds stacked in the player’s favour (At least with my entries at least). I think map04 is fine too. I will probably clean up E1M3 next if everyone is fine with that.

Nice use of doom cute there by the way.

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11 hours ago, cannonball said:

I’ve tended to veer more towards violent, but with the odds stacked in the player’s favour (At least with my entries at least)

 

Yeah your stuff is always great and I like the balance you strike in E1—was mainly just thinking of M3, M4, and M8 being very low stress... which now that I think about it, wouldn't be too hard to change up. Still, I appreciate M4 being laid back, considering M5 & M6 can't be played as carelessly. Every now and then the player needs a good pat on the back. Feel free to edit E1M3 if you have any ideas for it; feel a little bad you're stuck in E1 land, but I've also been stuck in E2 land for a long while.

 

Also a minor thing for E1M4: I think the red key door on the left should have the same tag the red key bars do on the right, so they both open when one is activated. I've already made that small tweak so you don't have to send me another update.

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15 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

 

Yeah your stuff is always great and I like the balance you strike in E1—was mainly just thinking of M3, M4, and M8 being very low stress... which now that I think about it, wouldn't be too hard to change up. Still, I appreciate M4 being laid back, considering M5 & M6 can't be played as carelessly. Every now and then the player needs a good pat on the back. Feel free to edit E1M3 if you have any ideas for it; feel a little bad you're stuck in E1 land, but I've also been stuck in E2 land for a long while.

 

Also a minor thing for E1M4: I think the red key door on the left should have the same tag the red key bars do on the right, so they both open when one is activated. I've already made that small tweak so you don't have to send me another update.


I don’t mind really, however after starting E1M3 I realised why I did E1M4 first. A much tougher job. Hopefully it will be cleaned up soonish. I have an idea of how to edit E1M8, but I will leave that pitch until later as it would involve a bit more in the way of changes compared to Stewboy’s maps.

I was thinking the same for E1M4 regarding those bars. Cheers for doing that.

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Right so the deadline has past; so as of now E1M7 and E3M7 do not have a submission.

@Magnusblitz If you still want to take a shot at E3M7 let me know. I have had interest from someone else who has produced a smallish area that is thematically acceptable. At this point I wouldn't mind a multiple author submission tied together as I could envisage this working well.

@dobu gabu maru Same regarding E1M7.

 

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Hey.... What about that small-ish snippet you have..? If it were possible that we could have a look at it, then maybe we could do something like a "round-robin" or whatever...?

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Yeah I'll take E1M7. Won't start work on it until E2M4's revision is complete. Here's to hoping I can actually get Computer Station finished, since it seems to be a cursed slot.

 

Speaking of revisions and whatnot, I'll ping the remaining authors that are still active.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, cannonball said:

E1M8 - Looking back at this, the hellishness feels a little too haphazard (I know that seems odd given that by definition this should be fine), but it does feel a little jarring and could do with a little cleaning up.

 

@Armaetus This is cb's feedback for E1M8. I think the hellishness is good but the combat in the map is weak and very "stand and shoot" (barring the exit battle). Could do something more fun like having the hell stuff reveal itself slowly over the course of the level, and having enemies warp out of the FIREBLU portals instead of just randomly. I also think most of the secrets being walls with no alignment issues is fairly rude, even if it does invoke Ultimate Doom. You could make some updates to this yourself, or let us handle it if you want.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, cannonball said:

E2M3 - This one could do with a little cleaning up, the version I have at the very least has some mid-texture issues (Inconsistent height levels).

 

@DJVCardMaster This is cb's feedback for E2M3. I think the map also has an overabundance of enemies that doesn't necessarily make it tougher, but does make it grindier. The whole western trek for the YK could possibly be cut. Dunno if you want to take a look at the map and edit yourself, or just leave it to us.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 6:28 PM, cannonball said:

E3M1 - This one is one that is quite old, so could do with a little tidying up.

 

@jmickle66666666 This is cb's feedback for E3M1. I think the gameplay is spot-on, it's just the visuals that could receive some help here and there (most of the map is really bright). I know you submitted this forever ago, so let us know if you'd rather we handle any edits, or if you'd rather it be left as-is.

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I've attached the (very) rough draft of my last idea for E3M7 if anyone else wants to see it (needs to be run with the UDINO alpha for the lava fall texture; assume larger/longer fight at the end). Dobu made an accurate point that right now the two 'wings' sections, revisiting the two Anomaly levels pre-hell, isn't very compelling. Could maybe go the other direction and completely hell-ify them (and even fill with 'normal' enemies), but that point it might be straying too far from the Limbo theme. 

 

udino-e3m7-v2e.rar

 

Also FWIW I didn't really think of E1M8 (except the last area obviously) as really hell-ish, more just... damaged, with all the red cracks and such in the architecture. I figured the red/blue walls and the red puddles in front were leaking reactor walls or something, not hell portals. I could be completely off on this of course.

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On 6/3/2021 at 12:21 AM, Nine Inch Heels said:

Hey.... What about that small-ish snippet you have..? If it were possible that we could have a look at it, then maybe we could do something like a "round-robin" or whatever...?

 

Apologies for taking so long, had a few very long evening shifts at work where the first port of call was sleep. This was made by Joe Ilya that was potentially going to go into Dobu's version that never saw the light of day as a secret area.

 

Quote

A year ago I sent Dobu an arena that implements doing the Limbo dance under wooden sticks and guillotines that can crush the player.

 

It is certainly something I haven't seen in a map, it is of course a little rough around the edges but I personally think if cleaned up it could be used to house a key that unlocks the exit.

e3m7bfgsec.zip

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1 hour ago, cannonball said:

It is certainly something I haven't seen in a map, it is of course a little rough around the edges but I personally think if cleaned up it could be used to house a key that unlocks the exit.

 

I just gave it a look in the editor, it's basically kind of what I did in E3M6, except with added monster closets and chasing barons - I can see it being fun if built a bit less linear than it currently is, so I'm not gonna knock the idea itself...

 

...However... just in terms of construction, there are all sorts of problems - from easily skippable linedefs to teleport-closets that seem iffy, as well as sectors that might not change height when run with a port that has "true to vanilla logic"...

 

I think that, if you want something like this as a core part of a map, it might just be more efficient to build this from scratch while using the snippet as inspiration... It's not like I want to elbow joe's idea out of the project, so this might be overstepping a little bit right here, but I really feel like using the idea and building from scratch is the better course of action here...

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^I will give this some thought before proceeding.

Anyway here is an update to E1M3

A lot of changes here and there, more than E1M4, but I have tried to keep the essence of the map intact. 

E1M3 - Stew et al.zip

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On 6/2/2021 at 8:29 PM, Magnusblitz said:

I've attached the (very) rough draft of my last idea for E3M7 if anyone else wants to see it (needs to be run with the UDINO alpha for the lava fall texture; assume larger/longer fight at the end). Dobu made an accurate point that right now the two 'wings' sections, revisiting the two Anomaly levels pre-hell, isn't very compelling. Could maybe go the other direction and completely hell-ify them (and even fill with 'normal' enemies), but that point it might be straying too far from the Limbo theme

I took a look at that snippet, and I like the idea of having some manner of central hub, with pure tech, tech/hell, and lastly pure hell sections attached to it, in order to reflect the "in between realms idea", and since it's a hub it should also be pretty easy to attach several areas to the map without much in the way of having to account for geometry issues...

 

This means that joe's snippet, or some variation thereof, could fit in rather nicely, and it also means it would be pretty easy to make the map a team effort, if that's something you're interested in... That way, it should be possible to push it out the door pretty quickly, I reckon....

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Looking over some of the technology behind these maps, so that some of the potentially problematic designs can be overhauled in due time:

 

E1M1: The pinkie and imp teleport closets need redesigning, because the way they're built now makes them prone to unreliable output which can cause undesirable delays for monsters...

 

E1M2: Linedefs #3023 and #4561 show action 85. which appears as "unknown" for me in DBX - not sure what's up with that, could be good for somebody else to have a gander at that...

 

E1M8: The small red teleport closet seems a bit iffy, would probably work better if it had slanted lines like the other closet in the map

 

E2M5: Some of those "stick closets" here can produce wildly different results, in particular when it comes to stragglers, those may need cleaning up...

 

E2M6: not a fan of some of the closets there... I guess for the lost souls it won't matter much, but the imp closet could do well with some angled teleport lines, same with the caco closet...

 

E2M7: please angle the lines in these closets to make sure monsters get into the map reliably.. zig-zag or whatever

 

E3M1: caco-closet lines may need to be moved a bit closer to the linedef closest to the map (linedef #512) to prevent cacos from hugging the wall of the closet until kingdom come... Baron of hell teleport closet is unacceptable and will misfire for all of eternity if the teledest happens to be blocked (for example by a caco) at the one time the baron might teleport successfully...

 

E3M5: maybe make some of the teleport lines in these super wide imp + baron closets angled to avoid stragglers...

 

E4M1: the teleport closets here need reworking... they are genuinely bad

 

E4M2: some of the "dividers" in these closets aren't set to "block monster", not sure if on purpose, but might warrant another look (linedef #1739 up #1744)... any monster in these closets that is small enough to fit between the monster blocking dividers and the end of the closet might cause delayed arrivals because they brush along the outer wall for a time, so maybe lay down some angled teleport lines there to prevent that...

 

E4M6: any monster in these closets that is small enough to fit between the monster blocking dividers and the end of the closet might cause delayed arrivals because they brush along the outer wall for a time, so maybe lay down some angled teleport lines there to prevent that...

E4M7: off-map sectors with the tags 14, 15, and 16 don't seem to be targetted by any linedef action at all, the larger teleport closets in this map are in dire need of attention to prevent stragglers etc... Worst offender is the single cyberdemon closet because it's not supported with a repeatable line... The perched "in-map" SMMs need to be surrounded with monster blockers to make sure they get around reliably, too...

 

I've also checked for "ZDoomisms" like tag-0 actions that could cause entire sections of a map to goof out, but couldn't seem to find any after combing through the Alphav4 linked in the OP... Doesn't mean I can guarantee there aren't any, but that's it for the most egregious stuff I found in these maps that also happens to be easy to fix prior to a beta...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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19 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

E2M7: please angle the lines in these closets to make sure monsters get into the map reliably.. zig-zag or whatever

 

Why would the teleport lines need to be angled? Say for this closet:

 

ONGp6cD.jpg

 

What would angling the lines do? Is the idea that if the caco gets stuck going left to right, that an angled teleport could catch them and port them?

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13 minutes ago, dobu gabu maru said:

What would angling the lines do? Is the idea that if the caco gets stuck going left to right, that an angled teleport could catch them and port them?

yup...3.jpg.44824d77e728595c702198c7406934f0.jpg

 

Think of something like this, with a bit more room towards the south perhaps...

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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I do have another iteration of E3M7 I want to try, that does have some different areas (tech, more halfway corrupted, etc) though it's more linear than a hub. But still separate sections that could easily be turned into a hub, and have other people graft stuff in if needed.

 

 

20 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

E1M2: Linedefs #3023 and #4561 show action 85. which appears as "unknown" for me in DBX - not sure what's up with that, could be good for somebody else to have a gander at that...

 

Looks like action 85 is just 'scroll texture right' so no problems there.

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1 hour ago, Magnusblitz said:

Looks like action 85 is just 'scroll texture right' so no problems there.

 

Scroll texture right is a boom action. Vanilla's only scroll action (48) is to the left, so that's why it's says 'unknown' in the editor if on doom format.

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Yeah.. but it's not going to cause any problems, because crispy won't crash due to "unknown" actions, afaik it will just ignore them... So worst case is that a wall that was meant to scroll won't do that at all, which seems minor to me personally, but if SteveD wants it fixed it's at least on the table now...

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I'll go ahead and fix it, NIH, plus the other issues you turned up. Thanks for catching all of those!

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20 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

I do have another iteration of E3M7 I want to try, that does have some different areas (tech, more halfway corrupted, etc) though it's more linear than a hub. But still separate sections that could easily be turned into a hub, and have other people graft stuff in if needed.

 

 

 

Looks like action 85 is just 'scroll texture right' so no problems there.

 

Regarding the first effort, I think it could be possible to merge the Phobos/Deimos Anomaly sections together (Probably using the outdoor section of E2M1 as the merge point). In this case you could reduce the number of keys down to one and have teleporters to hop between the two points and thus leave the remaining key available for another segment. I really like the hub section by the way, very atmospheric and some excellent shadow-casting. 

Just some proof of concept stuff from me here - If anyone is interested. Part of me is tempted to build this up and potentially do the bit before and after the hub section you have done (First key to unlock that section and the end after collecting the two remaining keys). I have an idea for a very atmospheric final fight on a bridge linking to a distant marble section where the exit will be. Just brainstorming at the moment.

 

e3m7.png

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