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cannonball

Ultimate Doom In Name Only [Limit Removing] - In the final stages

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I can handle all the teleport edits that need to be made, since I have the most up-to-date Alpha anyway. I'll probably post it soon.

 

I've already told Heels this, but my personal hope is for cannonball to fill the E3M7 slot, though I'm sure whatever you people come up with will be swell.

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No pressure then regarding E3M7 then :p

I have managed a couple of hours this evening, though progress will be quite slow given this is out of my comfort zone in terms of feel and design. 
Looking forward to the next alpha, at least if the remaining slots are sort of filled then there can be one last push to fix any issues before the beta release.

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@dobu gabu maru Are you going to do everyone's teleport edits? If so, thanks. ;)

 

Second issue; I never checked Alpha4 -- yeah, my bad! -- but on viewing it yesterday, I was surprised to discover that all the skies had been changed and also that the music I chose for E4M2 and E4M6 had been replaced. I think the replacements worked well for M2, but I designed the look of M6 around the E4 sky so that all the curvy ceiling edges would pop. Now, a bunch of them are almost literally invisible against a nearly black sector of sky, and as a result, those areas look a little boring. I'm wondering if I'd be allowed to use a sky transfer to restore the E4 sky? Also, I'd like to restore the Jimmy track I used -- Godhood Part 8 (The Void) -- since IMO the replacement doesn't fit the map at all. If the objection is that Jimmy's midi has been overused, perhaps I could choose a different one. There are plenty of Jimmy midis that are less commonly used, plus I have at least one from Viscra Maelstrom that could work, and which has never been used. Or maybe I could find another Amiga midi like the one for E1M2, which is more or less guaranteed to be unknown to Doomers.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Steve D said:

@dobu gabu maru Are you going to do everyone's teleport edits? If so, thanks. ;)

 

Second issue; I never checked Alpha4 -- yeah, my bad! -- but on viewing it yesterday, I was surprised to discover that all the skies had been changed and also that the music I chose for E4M2 and E4M6 had been replaced. I think the replacements worked well for M2, but I designed the look of M6 around the E4 sky so that all the curvy ceiling edges would pop. Now, a bunch of them are almost literally invisible against a nearly black sector of sky, and as a result, those areas look a little boring. I'm wondering if I'd be allowed to use a sky transfer to restore the E4 sky? Also, I'd like to restore the Jimmy track I used -- Godhood Part 8 (The Void) -- since IMO the replacement doesn't fit the map at all. If the objection is that Jimmy's midi has been overused, perhaps I could choose a different one. There are plenty of Jimmy midis that are less commonly used, plus I have at least one from Viscra Maelstrom that could work, and which has never been used. Or maybe I could find another Amiga midi like the one for E1M2, which is more or less guaranteed to be unknown to Doomers.

 

The snag with midis was always going to come up eventually. In this case the midi for your map E4M6 will be the same in vanilla based ports as E2M4. So we to get one that works for both maps. I guess the same applies for the rest of E4, though personally my entry (E4M5 is fine) and I tried my best regarding E4M9 that uses the track used in E1M9.

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5 minutes ago, cannonball said:

 

The snag with midis was always going to come up eventually. In this case the midi for your map E4M6 will be the same in vanilla based ports as E2M4. So we to get one that works for both maps. I guess the same applies for the rest of E4, though personally my entry (E4M5 is fine) and I tried my best regarding E4M9 that uses the track used in E1M9.

 

So you're saying that ports like Chocolate and Crispy will perforce play the same tune in E2M4 and E4M6? I honestly never even think about vanilla ports, but since we're limit removing, I'd guess that UDINO will have real problems in Chocolate.

 

So does this mean we can keep looking for a midi that fits both maps, even in a kinda-sorta way? Because IMO, the current midi isn't even close to kinda-sorta for M6. FWIW, I'm looking for something ominous, creepy and suspenseful, with at least one action part, which should work for any Doom map that isn't balls-out mayhem from the start.

 

That's one question. I guess the next one answers itself -- sky transfers don't work in vanilla-based ports. :(

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Steve D said:

 

So you're saying that ports like Chocolate and Crispy will perforce play the same tune in E2M4 and E4M6? I honestly never even think about vanilla ports, but since we're limit removing, I'd guess that UDINO will have real problems in Chocolate.

 

So does this mean we can keep looking for a midi that fits both maps, even in a kinda-sorta way? Because IMO, the current midi isn't even close to kinda-sorta for M6. FWIW, I'm looking for something ominous, creepy and suspenseful, with at least one action part, which should work for any Doom map that isn't balls-out mayhem from the start.

 

That's one question. I guess the next one answers itself -- sky transfers don't work in vanilla-based ports. :(

 

Personally I think a track with the description of the track you want should work in a map like Deimos Anomaly. I know Dobu is was working on edits to that map anyway so maybe a brainstorm between the two of you could be beneficial here. 

 

Anyway I have made more progress on my part.

 

e3m7.3.png

 

This is looking back at the main hub island from what will be the path to the exit.

Spoiler

e3m7.4.png   

 

e3m7.5.png

 

Regarding skies, we might be able to talk about that too.

 

 

Edited by cannonball

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2 hours ago, Steve D said:

So does this mean we can keep looking for a midi that fits both maps, even in a kinda-sorta way?

 

E4 gets the short end of the stick and there's not much we can do about it for more vanilla ports. I tried to look for midis that fit both types of maps but some maps already have the original author's track (like E3M2 for E4M2), and I prioritize keeping their submissions. For those that don't have original submissions, I let the E4 author's track cover both slots (like E4M4 for E1M5). Unfortunately for you, both authors have tracks.

 

To compensate for this, I've added a MAPINFO file that will give E4 (or its corresponding levels) unique tracks, so we don't have repeat tunes. So your original track submissions can still be heard in something like GZDoom. Since scifista isn't around I could make E4M6 the "dominant" track and have E2M4's track be the one that needs MAPINFO, if you'd like.

 

Regarding skies, a while back I've changed E4's sky to this mek one:

 

sky4-4.png.285c85fc12e0ccc7f696e10f8fd460a9.png

 

Skies for E1, E2, & E3 are created by Eradrop, though I've done some edits on them. Sky transfer replacements could be allowed, but I can't add stock Ultimate Doom skies in the wad, as they're original id art assets. And frankly I dunno why the skies I've implemented won't work for whatever maps are already there.

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Posted (edited)

Another idea for music in more vanilla ports - an e4music.wad that is to (or at least can) be loaded for playing E4? That seems like the easy idea to me without compromising anything. MAPINFO still in ports that can support it, so those players don't have to deal with an additional file.

 

If there is MAPINFO only...E4M6 as dominant would be better IMO unless scifista returns.

 

Sky wise there are places you can get a sky that is not quite identical but is extremely similar to E4...it is even in some DooM II wads that have been accepted to idgames, like SKY1 in Alien Vendetta. And one of Eternal DooM's sky options.

Edited by FrancisT218

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I just wanted to pop in and mention that Crispy Doom actually has a workaround for E4 music. If you name a track D_E4Mx, then the port will choose that one instead of the original for that map slot. So, the only (major) ports affected by this bit of hardcoding would be Chocolate and PrBoom+, which is still an issue, but I think @FrancisT218's proposal is a sound (heh) solution. I was thinking of doing something similar with my own UD project, actually.

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Posted (edited)

^ That's actually a really good idea that I like. We'll simply name the E4 tracks their D_E4MX title, and include a copy of them as E4MUSIC.wad to run alongside the episode.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't get around to doing it for this alpha: UDINO_Alpha5

 

I'll do it for the beta proper though. Included in this alpha are all the teleport issues I thought needed fixing, as well as a dozen little fixes here and there for my maps and others (E3M4, E4M1, etc) I think I have all the current updates for everyone's maps as well. Some of my changes to E2M4 are included, although I'm still working on the red key & exit rooms. As it works right now, the barons only wake up when you fire inside of the red key room.

 

Some other things I can think of are that automaps need some sprucing up, and I think both E1M1 and E4M9 are lacking difficulties. And we lack graphics, of course.

 

EDIT: Also I filled in the missing tracks with new music. The only one that might care about this is cannonball, as I found a Jimmy track for E4M5. Feel free to pick out something else if you don't think it fits.

Edited by dobu gabu maru

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Thanks, Dobu, that's a major improvement. I have my Jimmy midi back, and the new sky, though still not perfect, is far better for my map than the previous one. Both skies are actually great and have a stormy feel to them, but the plainer E4 sky is very bright, which works better for a map designed to highlight that quality. Still, I like this one, and it's also more detailed, giving my map a more detailed appearance overall. So I'm satisfied.:)

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On 6/3/2021 at 2:03 AM, dobu gabu maru said:

@jmickle66666666 This is cb's feedback for E3M1. I think the gameplay is spot-on, it's just the visuals that could receive some help here and there (most of the map is really bright). I know you submitted this forever ago, so let us know if you'd rather we handle any edits, or if you'd rather it be left as-is.

 

omfg yes do whatever you want i made this map 6 years ago lol

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Can't believe this project is already seven years old haha

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2 hours ago, Firedust said:

Can't believe this project is already seven years old haha

 

Ageing and maturing like a fine wine..... Well that is the line I am going to stick with anyway.

 

Cheers @jmickle66666666, unless someone beats me to it, I will take a look sometime in the near future. From my perspective most of the work will be around the perimeter and just a general tidy up. This is another map from when this was a strict vanilla project. 

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Posted (edited)

 

A bit more progress made, unless @Magnusblitz objects, I have implemented your hub section. It was too good to leave out of any finished version of E3M7, I love the shadow casting from the pillars.

 

e3m7.7.png

 

Also, one of the two key islands is close to completion;

 

Spoiler

e3m7.8.png

 

 

 

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^ I'd make the shadows cast from the pillars go out at a bit of an angle, like 15° or so, since the light from the lava isn't a laser beam :P

 

On 6/18/2021 at 5:37 PM, cannonball said:

I will take a look sometime in the near future. From my perspective most of the work will be around the perimeter and just a general tidy up.

 

Feel free—like I said, I don't think it needs that many changes... mainly just light differences. That said, I'd like to reserve E4M7 a little in advance if Peanut doesn't show up any time. I had ideas of how to adjust/change things but never implemented it since Peanut was editing the map.

 

Hopefully I'll have E2M4 wrapped up soon so I can start on E1M7. After that we have... what, E2M3 and E1M8 left?

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Posted (edited)

Very good to see the rest of Limbo coming along... as galileo31dos01 pointed out I was having a brain fart and forgetting the difference between limit removing and Boom, so my ideas for any parts leading up to the final area weren't going to work.

 

As for the center area, yup, of course, feel free to use it. I had been experimenting with a few more iterations/angles, see below. The circular hub might work the best though. Not sure if you want to stick with the 'well of souls' (wait, isn't that FDINO? oh no...) design in the center, I also tried one with a circular staircase to tie in a bit more with "Limbo as first circle of hell" in a way. I was thinking of surrounding the central structure with something more as well... maybe just some additional marble supports to make it more of a free-standing structure, or could surround it with a red rock spire and make it seem like it's jutting out of hell into this level.

 

I also was trying some different designs on the columns, by flattening them and adding a little candle pillar to make them look more like graves. Not sure if that's preferable to the square monoliths (bit more alien/eerie).

 

As for the light angle, you're saying the shadows should be wider? What I did was draw lines from the exact center of the lava circle to the far outer wall, connecting on where the 'light line' hit the corner of the pillar. It often is a very close angle (too close sometimes - if the pillar isn't exactly at the right angle facing the circle one of the walls will often be at the wrong angle, so some of the lines were at a wider angle to avoid the linedefs merging) but I think that's right, depending on the distance from the light source -- at least from some very basic experiments with my phone flashlight and a deck of cards in dark room, haha. One thing I was wondering about is that if the lava wall is taller than the columns, then technically the shadows should end at some point before hitting the far wall. But it depends on what happens with the final middle structure I suppose, or could just leave it this way out of simplicity.

 

 

udino-e3m7-v3-d.rar

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APQpWAW.jpg

 

Almost done with E2M4—just have to do the cave to the left. I know it looks like I've lost my mind but one thing led to another and now there's a bit more substance to the map. Nothing crazy, just an "intermission" for the red key, final fight, and nasty little exit puzzle (which is necessary for UVMax, trust me!!!). Hopefully it'll all feel like an improvement and not needless bloat.

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Posted (edited)

I think E2M4 is ready for testing. I honestly didn't intend to put two puzzle rooms in the map but oh well. The only thing I'm somewhat iffy on is the red & blue caco room—I don't know if the "puzzle" there feels intuitive, or if it'll be easy for players to make their way to the lift. Maaaaybe I'll return to it later and fiddle with it, but as is I'd rather start work on E1M7.

 

Note that the map needs the ALLBLACK & xFALL textures if you're going to play it.

 

 

DGM_E2M4.zip

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I had no issue with the puzzles, there is enough time to reach the lift in the first one as long as you can keep your bearings. The second was

easy to figure out too in my opinion.

The cacoswarm near the end is a nice edition by the way.

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I think everyone knows how much I loath and despise puzzles in Doom, and I also hate the gameplay mechanic where you press a switch and have to run like crazy to reach a door before it closes, or a lift before it rises, or whatever. And I reliably hated all of that in this map. Absolutely, positively hated it.

 

That said, there's a lot to like about this map. It's gorgeous, for one thing, and since I loaded up cc4-tex along with the udino_liquids wad to make certain I'd have ALLBLACK, I got the blue E2 CC4 sky, which made all that Rockred outdoors look spectacular. @dobu gabu maru also did all kinds of tasty work throughout the map with exquisite detailing, room-shaping, texture flow and area staging. Just superb work everywhere.

 

Combat was a bit low-key for a Dobu map. I remembered the big fight with Barons from when I played the original scifista version years ago. I even remembered the electrified water. ;D That was a pretty decent lock-in fight, but I didn't surrender any pelts until the Cacoswarm/Crusher Room fight at the end. All told, 4 pelts were shed in that location, one of them to the crushers. Once I finally survived, I found the narrow path to the exit puzzle.

 

This was the second area that used the "press switch, run like hell" mechanic. In both cases, I made a few attempts to do it honestly, but cannonball is wrong that there's enough time to reach the destinations before they close. There might be enough time for cannonball, but not for The Ancient Keyboarder. So once I knew where I had to go, I cheated and clipped my way through. This is what I always do when it's going to take me more than 10 tried to achieve a goal that I'm personally not interested in achieving, and so as long as everyone's okay with that, no one gets hurt and I promise to free all the hostages. ;D

 

The one exception was the exit itself, which appeared to require running to a teleporter before its access closed off. I couldn't clip my way to that one, so I just quit at the exit. I'd killed all but 2 of the monsters honestly, and found 1 secret. 

 

Extra props to Dobu for showing us all those Barons and Cacos that we wouldn't fight until later. That was dope. :)

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^ How were you trying to exit the map? I am also a keyboarder and had no issues there.

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Well, damn, if you're a keyboarder too -- but not The Ancient Keyboarder with the crippled, arthritic fingers -- I guess I have to do it. ;D

 

Made it on my third try after I hashed it all out. I only had it halfway right before. On the plus side, you get another beautiful room with this puzzle, but I'd have been happier without it. So I bitch and complain to give a voice to all the voiceless puzzle-haters out there, and we are legion. Okay, so the puzzle-haters are actually a very noisy bunch, but don't cloud the issue with facts! And yes, I know there are players who love this stuff, so live and let live and all that. For now. :D

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Cool! Coincidentally, I just got done playing Doom The Way Id Did with The Ultimate Doom The Way Id Did addon.

 

But first, I need to play the Hadron tetralogy. Hopefully, I can do that by the time UDINO goes gold! :D

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I apologize to @dobu gabu maru if my commentary on his map seemed a bit salty. I'm also aware that I have, in fact, liked the occasional Doom puzzle or even whole cryptic maps from time to time. I'm always sensitive to my own hypocrisy. ;) With that in mind, I did a -nomonsters run of the map, mainly to see if I could actually reach the first rising lift in time, since otherwise for me it's a game-breaker calling on the old reliable idclip cheat. It took me 7 tries, which is IMO frustrating. I then did the exit and it took 3 tries, just as it did last night, and I barely made it on the third try. 

 

I'm not good at this type of thing, tbh, but I was able to pull it off. If only I could dial down the difficulty as I can if a map's combat is too much for me. ;D

 

 

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I gotta admit I kinda liked how small and contained the first E2M4 was, basically being the one big setpiece with the lock-in room with the barons, and that was it. This iteration seems a bit overstuffed and self-indulgent, with two lock-in fights and two 'hit the right switch and run' puzzles. And I think this is magnified by it feeling overly busy and self-indulgent visually - while the original does benefit from some polishing and extra detail, I feel there's a bit too much of it in places. Too many different colors, too much detailing... it was all a bit overwhelming IMO.

 

As far as the puzzles go, I was actually most puzzled by the teleporter that lets you telefrag a baron and see the yellow key... I initially just thought the map had bugged out, took me awhile to figure out to shoot the wall behind me, heh. The red/blue caco room took me awhile because I thought you had to hit all the switches to get the lift to lower, before I finally realized the computer texture on the lift was a clue and I only had to hit the corresponding switch, with the others being dummies. Once that was clear, it was no trouble getting to the elevator. The puzzle at the end is pretty easy too IMO, takes a couple of experimental pushes to figure out each one does something different, and you only need to hit a couple to get out.

 

I really didn't like the second lock-in fight with the cacos. First, I think it also takes away from the baron fight and feels a bit repetitive. Second, it was just too damn hard... took me a good 12-15 attempts before I finally beat it, and even then I was narrowly squeezing out with 12 health (should put a soulsphere in the exit room or something IMO). The baron fight is hard enough but at least there I feel like you can make the choice to circle around and take dips into the water that you can't really do with the lava here. Maybe UV is just too tough for me and I should try it on lower difficulties... though, to be fair, I think difficulty in general is all out of whack across the entire mapset, with some levels having UV at the same as the original IWAD level, while others seem to be balanced for modern-day pros, so it'd be unfair to single this map out. 'Tis the trouble with a community project I suppose though.

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14 hours ago, cannonball said:

The cacoswarm near the end is a nice edition by the way.

 

Thanks! Good to hear you enjoyed it!

 

1 hour ago, Steve D said:

I apologize to @dobu gabu maru if my commentary on his map seemed a bit salty.

 

Oh no no, you've been around long enough I know you don't mean any of it out of malice; the unfiltered, blunt review is always appreciated (see Magnus). Plus it's good getting one puzzle-hater to playtest it because I doubt you're alone in this. The only puzzle-oriented map in the whole megawad is E2M9 so I did feel a bit cautious making a non-secret map have mandatory puzzles, and you're a good tester for this stuff since if I can make you happy, it should be fine for just about anybody. Good work on the caco room, by the way.

 

I think the final puzzle room is likely fine as-is—like cb said, once you know the trick (and know to strafe-run the whole time), it's a pretty quick solve. Plus the exit puzzle is somewhat necessary as it gives UVMaxers something to do as the cacos get crushed (given that there's too many to kill with the PG alone). I do agree with you that the red-blue caco room's timing is probably too tight, especially given how labyrinthian it feels... I'll see if relocating the switch helps it.

 

1 hour ago, Magnusblitz said:

it was all a bit overwhelming IMO.

 

Thanks for the feedback! My process was that cb wanted a better exit fight so I wanted to reuse the lock-in idea but instead make it a cacoswarm that slowly overwhelms you, forcing you to flee from it. As I was working it out I wanted to add more environmental storytelling here given the wad's lack of it, but perhaps I altered the map too much; the simplicity of the original was nice in its own way. I can make the caco fight a touch easier, though it's a thin line between being overwhelming and a boring "strafe and shoot plasma"-fest. I tested it several times and felt this was a good balance between the two, but I'm not against making it easier if it helps the map to flow better.

 

Any other recommendations? You can see I'm in a bit of a pickle as you dislike the caco fight, Steve dislikes the puzzles, and cb is good with both. I'm not sure where I should simplify it and make alterations—like you mentioned, all of it may be a bit "too much" so it's not like one room needs to be "fixed" over another.

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Just an update to say that E3M7 should be done at some point this week. The layout and progression are done, I just need to do some gameplay and visual tweaks.

I must confess that this might end up being a little too much for the player in terms of size and difficulty as some of the fights are rather oppressive. So will likely make a backup that is shorter at the very least.

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Pls keep the oppressive one in! Difficulty levels are still there for those who don't play on UV :p

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, cannonball said:

I must confess that this might end up being a little too much for the player in terms of size and difficulty as some of the fights are rather oppressive. So will likely make a backup that is shorter at the very least.

You don't think it would work well for that mapslot given the surrounding maps..? ;-)

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