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cannonball

Ultimate Doom In Name Only - Limit removing project

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I have a close to 100% success rate there without having to back off and jump out the building. But sure, I'll give an option to fight them from the outside on a platform, fits with the map's overall "tone", and is relatively easy to implement. Won't be the largest of platforms, though. ;-)

 

Sat down and did a bunch of tries, my closest to viable strategy was this: grab the RL, shoot two rockets to the barons (either to both or one) which with a bit of luck the imps should die from splash, if not then pistol each from the entrance, and then perform ballet inside with the gentlegoats. Rate of success increased with practice, around 70% with different but positive results, such as barely injured or empty ammo stock. Notes: imps play the role of primary targets, they are nuisances you don't want to waste rockets on and eat space, I feel their addition is what gives a more "better cheese this than stay" vibe, once you understand what's going on, since the barons can be weakened with preemptive shots, but oh if an imp gets in the way... Noticed on UV that part is the same at the moment so probably scrapping one or both for HMP could do fair balancing imo, or else expanding a platform outside and then we test it. Definitive yes to the cover from the cyberdemon if so, btw.

 

17 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Joke's on you, there is only one cyberdemon. ;-)

 

L O L 

No don't tweak that, it's fine as it is then.

 

17 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Hmmm? there should be. Since I can't use voodoo dolls here, and don't want to work in a mikoveyor setup since this is a CP and maps might have to be compatible with GZDoom, I used stacked linedefs to get the whole fight started and release everything at the same time. If it turns out that it doesn't work reliably I'll "rewire" the whole setup, but I've never had any issues with stuff spawning in PrB+ or GZ, so if there are any, let me know.

 

This on the other side needs tweaking. The cacodemons do not appear in Crispy or GLB+ cl3, but they do on cl9. That also explains why I always ended up shotgunning the cyber lol

 

Few extra things that slipped through my radar earlier: this stimpack was floating, these vines also appear clipping through the floor in Crispy as MagnusBlitz mentioned. I could do a general inspection of the map to spot visual oddities in the next days, seeing as my keyboard is slowly passing away, the C and other keys work whenever they want, so I'm usually unable to idclip.

Edited by galileo31dos01 : naming mistake

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32 minutes ago, galileo31dos01 said:

This on the other side needs tweaking. The cacodemons do not appear in Crispy or GLB+ cl3, but they do on cl9. That also explains why I always ended up shotgunning the cyber lol

Yeah I see what's going on there, it's one of those cl3-oddities where sectors don't move up or down if they have a linedef inside them that isn't part of the sector boundary. Must have been another one of those final-ish edits that got lost when I had to do my "undo spree", due to the builder acting up. easy fix though.

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I will get round to playing this later next week when I will hopefully have some free time. But having casually browsed through this I must admit that there is real promise there.

Also, I don’t mind the more left field approach to the gameplay here.

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Posted (edited)

Alright, a small update for the sake of troubleshooting:
udino_E3M6v2.zip

Grab version 3 instead.

 

Changelog:
-Fixed cacos not spawning in when playing in cl3 (gave the map a full run in cl3 and could kill everything)
-Fixed floating stimpack
-removed clipping vines

-increased real estate for the first fight, but kept platforms as is. It should be slightly easier now because of this. If it's still not enough, I'll go for "plan B"
-Increased timer for the last platforming part on HMP and lower to give a few more seconds before cybies can engage the player

-added teleport to crusher section

-made SP_FACE at the RK platforming section a scrolling texture by popular demand :P

-fixed a few minor things nobody seems to have noticed

Still to do:
-Detailing for the later parts in the map
-Cleaning up the "map boundaries"

-Adding chaingun and bullets for the lava river section on hntr/itytd (not sure I'll actually do this, I might simply axe a few imps instead)

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Right played the old version of E3M6

General thoughts, it is certainly an interesting map, I can certainly see some frustration coming from this map in both the combat and platforming sections. That first fight with the rocket launcher is incredibly tight, otherwise the fights were fine with decent solutions available. I really struggled with the rising platform section, probably because I am a little clumsy with the keyboard. The rest including the end of the map I found okay.

I must admit the level of lava damage is very harsh, possibly too harsh perhaps? I certainly paid the price many times for my millisecond accidental steps off solid ground.

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5 minutes ago, cannonball said:

That first fight with the rocket launcher is incredibly tight

Spoiler

 

Alright, I think I'd need some feedback on the slightly nerfed version before I go about making more changes to it. I ended up not going straight for the "outside platform solution"  because it ended up being a waiting game instead of a fight in that case. I'll give it some more thought regardless, perhaps I have a bright idea on how to change things in a way that makes it more "sufferable".

 

12 minutes ago, cannonball said:

the level of lava damage is very harsh, possibly too harsh perhaps? I certainly paid the price many times for my millisecond accidental steps off solid ground.

Where was this a problem in particular? If it's early on before the rocket launcher fight it shouldn't be a problem to use lower damage rates and just indicate this with perhaps a lower light level or even a different flat for the less painful part. For other areas I'm not so sure. If the section with the "melting platforms" is a problem I'd rather add a few stims to it as compensation for unfortunate timing, than making a run through the lava a "comfortable option".

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Posted (edited)

I think it is the earlier sections up to grabbing the blue key. Beyond this wasn't an issue for me, the melting platforms are fine as if you are unlucky with the shotgun shots you can just push on through. Obviously for 100% kills this could be frustrating. A few recovery items could be a good move though.

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1 minute ago, cannonball said:

I think it is the earlier sections up to grabbing the blue key. Beyond this wasn't an issue for me.

Good. I'll have a look at it tomorrow to see what I can do about the early parts. By the way on which setting did you play the map?

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I played on Ultra violence, I look forward to seeing the final version in the not too distant future.

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I see, yeah the platforming on UV isn't exactly easy. I've nerfed it twice before even uploading it here, because it was pretty tight when I first made it. I didn't yet get around to playing the "surrounding maps", so if the map is too much of a spike because of that section in particular I can make UV a little more forgiving so it fits a little bit better.

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Version 3 is here: udino_E3M6v3.zip

I added a small patch of less painful lava on the way to the first key in the map, did some texturing (not much though, wasn't really in the detailing-mood the last days), and added some stims to the sinking platform section in case players might need to tank a few hits, also added a "quality of life" teleport from the secret key back into the cave.

 

I also looked into the hom/bleeding flat issue that was pointed out earlier, but it seems it wasn't some sector overlap or anything of the sorts, I ended up moving some vertices, launched the whole thing in ZDaemon, and it didn't show anything out of the ordinary. So I hope that's one less problem now.

Since it seems nobody is experiencing any major issues with the fights as they currently are, I consider the gameplay part of the map done. I'll get back at some detailing when I'm in the mood, but I really don't feel like it right now, sorry. :P

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HOMs are still appearing on Crispy Doom.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Yo hold on a sec... You mean multiple homs? Did you use the liquids resource?

Shit, I thought I was... I'm a dumbass, my bad. Embarassing!

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Posted (edited)

Had a chance to play NiH's map for this; what a fun ride! Well except the pyramid at the beginning but for the rest of it that was awesome!

Sub-100 what (-cl9)

… what's that; I had to play in the wrong complevel for saves and spent another 92 minutes barely getting the BK in an earlier version? /wrists

Nah in all seriousness though I would not have been able to beat it without saves; maybe on a lesser difficulty I could but even then I suspect that doing all of this in one go is out of my range. Case in point my struggles with the pyramid at the beginning and some mishaps near the end which proved the threat of the cybers was mostly just in my mind. When I finally got past the 3 cyber part I didn't know what way to run to teleport so I jumped off before killing the third one and soon realized that I should've just shot him 'til he died, and in retrospect what was I even saving ammo for anyway? That said I've also decided that your last name is Peterson.

 

I didn't see any homs when I played, though I thought I saw a couple the one's I had the chance to inspect turned out to be false alarms.


 

Spoiler

This map had a super-interesting progression and fancy use of useless keys as a means of denoting progression/location. I really liked the way the map led me around, starting with the beginning's clever reuse of areas, to the RK area's cool overall design, as well as the amazing, inspiring MC Escher room, and then continuing towards the end, eventually doubling back for that YK at the end for the not-so-secret exit.

 

I also liked that the oppressiveness was ingrained so heavily into the map's design; it worked super well here and also helped to tie together so many tiny and occasionally one-off facets of the design.

 

Ok to go through the map more thoroughly:

 - As I said I didn't like the pyramid overall; I understand its reasoning, but still don't like it, or the imp on the ledge. So much time on resets!

 - Top of pyramid encounter was tricky to figure out and still is kinda tight but all around its good.

 - BK encounter was great fun interspersed with picking my pride up off the floor and crying.

 - Cybie1 was a nice, tight encounter but I was too scared to rocket the bulls and aggro the survivors, so I made it a little tougher on myself than I suppose the intended strategy was.

 - Approaching the RK area was grand

 - Crushers were super easy; I made them tougher on myself with my preconception that they'd be tough like your MH19 collab with rd. Would have been broken-easy if I had used freelook, especially if playing on GlBoom+ where you can look straight up, but all-in-all that wasn't even close to necessary as the candles were a nice pattern.

 - MC Escher room. Yes. Fucking yes thank you for this, but at the same time wtf on the doors? No, not that they're present and require switches during a fairly tight, timed platforming segment, but that they don't close on reset. Like I can accept and like the positioning on the close line for the first door, I can accept no line on the second door, but on the final 3, whats the point in having 3 doors/switches if they aren't gonna close on reset??????????????? I'm so confused; did I miss something, or is this not working as it should, or is it just 'accessible?' To me, this section would have been far better if hitting all switches were required, or if it played as-is, but the 3 top doors reset on fail. That was a total let-down, and I'm sad I didn't persevere on at least hitting all 3 top switches each attempt that somehow got that far. I feel like my win on this was cheated.

 - Likewise with the following part after the RK grab. The lava doesn't hurt at all; surely this is an error, right? If not, this is a bad type of accessibility and at least 5% would be better than the current nothing, if not 10%.

 - I liked the mosh pit, very... moshy, and sweaty, and I took a punch to the face and idk where it came from. I liked the strategy for this fight and everything about it was appropriate. The cyber afterwards was cool too and a nice, light obstacle to keep in the back of one's mind as they clear the barons. I wasn't about to gather plasma ammo there, thinking I should save it anyway and especially with the shells, hinting at their use, but in retrospect I wish I would have just taken the faster path of using all rockets, then cells, then grabbing more cells and finishing him off.

 - I loved the finale. Amazing work; could have been longer. Should have been longer. Great use of multiple pathways, but it would have been a bit better for my taste if it emphasized a slower, more methodical approach while dodging and planning movement/timing, but that would have required it to be longer and prolly shaped differently.

 - Nice OS rj

 

The visuals of this map were also great; I loved how clean and foreboding everything looked. The areas also had a great sense of verticality to them and the automap is downright gorgeous. Great use of lighting, color and contrast throughout as well. The MC Eshcer room may not be the highlight for some people among the many great visuals in here, but to me that was the moment I realized I had stumbled into something amazing and was like 'holy shit.' Really great use of layering for the lighting that is central to the aesthetic of the room. The area just looks otherworldly in such a grand and mysterious way that beckons the player to understand it. I guess that's more than just a visual note though as that was also my favorite part of the map, which is saying something because I loved the combat here. It's just so creative and fun though; great job! 

 

An interesting *hits blunt* observation about this map is the way it rides the ebb and flow of emotional buildup. Much in the same way as a sports game with its fans or a mega-church would play to the emotions of its financial victims, with bursts of high energy excitement interspersed with periods of calm anticipation, each bigger and more bold than the last leading to bigger climaxes, more relieving and suspenseful calms after the storm, and more meaningful buildups and encounters. This map played a good psychological game from the outset and continued with it to its conclusion. Starting with the soft-lock of the pyramid climb leading to the tight, tight quarters rocketing, continuing through to the nice reset-on-health-punchy, barely clinging on to that plot of dry land as you circle around in a feeble attempt to survive just to get at that beautiful, graceful blue key. From there you get a sigh of relief in the form of a SS before being pounded by a close quarters cyber and co. First boss fight of the map and it feels like one too, after which you get a large, appropriate bit of rest and calm as you cautiously approach the RK area. This feeling of calm continues through the stress and deaths of the RK area through its lack of monsters, though I'm also not sure the mc escher room fits in with this monologue. From the RK grab the action begins to ramp up again, slowly but with a hurried feeling of anticipation from the rush of the lowering platforms and killing imps, leading to the baron at the end as a good soft climax to that spot. In the very brief moment of calm a good ambush keeps the player guessing, and then it's time for a big, bad fight. You can just sense the impending doom as you enter the room, but after that huge amount of action, it sends off with a light sampling of what's to come in the finale. After a short breather, the finale is almost more of a great encore to the ending of the previous encounter than like a final, largest-climax-of-the-map, but I'm so glad to see you put this type of setup in a map you're releasing. This one was way easier tho, 0/10 ;p Nah but seriously I can't decide which of the two I prefer; both are fun in different ways for how they differ.

 

 

 

Great map NiP; fun times!

Edited by Fonze

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Posted (edited)

Alright, let's do it to it:
 

Spoiler

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

I've also decided that your last name is Peterson.

Clean up your room. :P

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

As I said I didn't like the pyramid overall; I understand its reasoning, but still don't like it, or the imp on the ledge.

Fair enough. As for the imp, it was either that or a shootswitch, at least the imp can cause people to make mistakes and fall down. :P

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

Crushers were super easy; I made them tougher on myself with my preconception that they'd be tough like your MH19 collab with rd. Would have been broken-easy if I had used freelook, especially if playing on GlBoom+ where you can look straight up, but all-in-all that wasn't even close to necessary as the candles were a nice pattern

I have been hesitant with the difficulty there for several reasons. Considering the platforming area that also belongs to the red key section I thought something less tight was in order. Fucking that section up is lethal, which is the main reason I kept it less harsh, but it also serves well as a rope that impatient or nervous players can hang themselves with, which I personally like about it. ;-)

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

MC Escher room. Yes. Fucking yes thank you for this, but at the same time wtf on the doors? No, not that they're present and require switches during a fairly tight, timed platforming segment, but that they don't close on reset. Like I can accept and like the positioning on the close line for the first door, I can accept no line on the second door, but on the final 3, whats the point in having 3 doors/switches if they aren't gonna close on reset??????????????? I'm so confused; did I miss something, or is this not working as it should, or is it just 'accessible?' To me, this section would have been far better if hitting all switches were required, or if it played as-is, but the 3 top doors reset on fail. That was a total let-down, and I'm sad I didn't persevere on at least hitting all 3 top switches each attempt that somehow got that far. I feel like my win on this was cheated.

In spite of how the section looks, it still isn't finished entirely. Door resets will get moved as part of the last update, and I will also add some "padding geometry" in places. UV will have a full reset, with door triggers most likely placed on the highlighted marble floor that leads to the teleport. I'm still not sure if I want to do the same thing for HMP and lower, because of how divisive opinions about platforming are, especially if it's not just walking straight lines, or large "chasm-esque" pillars that you can't really miss. It is a CP after all, so I wanna exercise at least some restraint. Another reason I did not do this yet is that I'm not 100% sure if I should make a third version for itytd: Not having the doors reset right away (or at all) each time does make things easier, and that might be just what the doctor ordered for the lowest settings, if the need arises. But yeah, UV will have a full reset no matter what, HMP and lower I'm not 100% sure yet. Frankly, I'm still slightly surprised the platforming didn't get any "hate" so far, but I still expect that somebody might rage at this, or already has.

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

Likewise with the following part after the RK grab. The lava doesn't hurt at all; surely this is an error, right? If not, this is a bad type of accessibility and at least 5% would be better than the current nothing, if not 10%.

I guess of all the "artifacts of construction" in my maps this is perhaps the most hilarious one I ever managed to "produce", especially because I did it several times. It's gonna be 10% hurt floor, yeah. 20% is probably too much for lower settings, and I really wanna avoid rad suits here.

 

7 hours ago, Fonze said:

could have been longer. Should have been longer.

Mhm, that's what he said. I'll have a look at this... Maybe keeping the center paths tighter but more suitable for faster people while having the outer routes wider to support players who prefer the methodical approach might work fine. By the way, being able to walk off the platforms without triggering a telefrag is also one of those things that have gone missing when the builder gave me trouble, that really wasn't supposed to happen, sorry about that.

 

Alright, cool thanks for putting this together, if there's a video I'll make sure to watch it when it's available.

 

 

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

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Hey Nine Inch Heels, finally slotted aside some time to try your monstrous map (v.3). First off, kudos on the visuals. Creating "Mt. Erebus" isn't an easy task but you really nailed the feeling of being really high up, whether it be because of the platforming in general or the really beautiful design work you did on the mountainside. The map absolutely knocks it out of the park in the atmosphere department, especially at the crazy rising lift section and the moody ending.

 

The map is way too goddamn hard though. It's not just a difficulty spike—it's a difficulty catapult into another wad. And it's one thing if this was a secret map, or the hard stuff was optional, or we were fine with alienating players, but none of this is the case. And what's unfortunate about saying all this is that it's a good map—the challenges are tight and well thought-out, and the rising platforming section in particular must've taken a lot of work to put together. But for this particular project, the map is just too ruthless and unforgiving compared to everything around it. I mean, when you make TimeofDeath look like he's treating the player with kiddie cloves in comparison, I think that's an obvious problem.

 

I figure you're like me and you're very resistant to any kind of sweeping changes, so I'll just and be as accommodating as possible in my review, especially since you've worked so hard on this that I don't want you to spend hours slaving away trying to replace anything.

 

Spoiler

- First platforming part (with the rockets) is perfect, no need to change that.

 

- The pyramidal climb is great too—seems like a fun way to annoy speedrunners—but finding the "start" of the pyramid can be confusing, especially if you move to the landing first and have to trudge through lava. Placing a candle down at the very first square block (sector 70) should be a good enough hint.

 

- The fight at the top is a bit tight. It's devious and I like it, but doing that fight at 20% health like I did is no bueno. Perhaps make the other stimpack a medikit? It's hard to say, because frankly not running through the lava should make that battle a lot easier, but I didn't think you were going to be so merciless.

 

- The berserk battle is pretty good—felt like there was enough health to mitigate any issues I'd have being a poor puncher. Then again I had a line of enemies warp in fairly late, so the slow trickle probably helped me out. I'd recommend making the switch that lowers the BK pillar a full linedef placed right in front of the FIREBLU pillar, as it's easier to miss activating it and wondering what to do.

 

- The fight past the BK gate is a goddamn bloodbath. First, the player doesn't know about the cybie warping in behind them, second, cell is at a premium, and third: cacos blocking the player is super frustrating, especially in such a tight, crammed area. This is a fight that I pretty much died over and over and over again until I found a good time to hide & save in the pinkie cubby, and then died over and over until I could slip past the barons and run away. I assume you have some strat that works 100% of the time, but I could not deduce it at all and like I was trapped in a Doomguy meatgrinder. First thing I'd personally ditch is those goddamn cacos cluttering pathways up, but I'm sure they serve some kind of purpose. Honestly, having a lot more cell so the player can push through pinkies and barons might be the proper fix, though I'm sure it'll ruin the flow of combat. This absolutely needs adjustments though.

 

- Likewise, the rising platforming room is too brutal. I feel bad about lambasting this because it's such a cool puzzle under limit-removing conditions no less, but it's way too unforgiving for my dull keyboard reactions. I tried and failed multiple times even with saves, and then got to the winding path section near the end and had to give up—it's damn near impossible without being able to turn on a dime. Again, in a solo release this is a cool, frantic challenge, but you need to be accommodating for players like me that can't platform to save their life. My suggestion would be to honestly ditch a lot or all of the switches, as having to nimbly hit them while moving quickly is too taxing of a task.

 

- The crusher room in comparison is a really simple task, especially once you realize you can skip multiple candles. I like the idea of the cacos warping in to pressure you, but they don't really amount to anything. Honestly I liked it just because I could clear it in one-go unlike a majority of your other challenges.

 

- Past the red key gate, for some reason all the lava sectors are missing their damaging sector effect. I'm pretty sure that's a mistake, and when you fix it I highly recommend making it -5/10% health instead of -10/20%

 

- The big cavern fight is really cool and very dangerous. Might be a bit difficult for non slaughter players and rubes, so maybe you could throw down a green armor for folks, especially considering the cybie right afterwards. It's a good fight though, difficult without feeling like you're being blocked from moving (by some bullshit cacodemons ARRRGGHHH)

 

- The cyber afterwards is junk. It's really difficult to grab the cell without being shot or splash damaged, it's difficult to fight him without tripping into the lava, and there's so few cell that you're required to collect all of it. Fighting cybers on thin platforms is a bit iffy for me, and doubly if you're having to collect goodies while doing so. I know you'll hate this suggestion, but it really felt like the player needed a BFG here.

 

- The final cybers are ok. At first it looks like a hellish task but it's not too hard to speed your way to the teleport sector. I'd recommend making the stairways out of the lava brighter, just so the player can spot them easily if they happen to fall down.

 

- RL jump is... mmmm. I'm not a fan of RL jump for a secret exit (it's fine for secrets), but I'm also not going to fight you over this. Only thing I'd suggest is spreading the rockets out a little more so they more clearly form an arrow, as I thought it was just a clump of rockets, and I didn't know what to do.

 

It's a really good map Heels that's a great addition to the project, so long as you give the player a little more room to breathe. I know you love your sadism but we gotta keep it R rated not XXX.

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Alright, I've given that list some thought, and here are the results alongside a new version:
udino_E3M6v4.zip

Spoiler

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

- The pyramidal climb is great too—seems like a fun way to annoy speedrunners—but finding the "start" of the pyramid can be confusing, especially if you move to the landing first and have to trudge through lava. Placing a candle down at the very first square block (sector 70) should be a good enough hint.

 

- The fight at the top is a bit tight. It's devious and I like it, but doing that fight at 20% health like I did is no bueno. Perhaps make the other stimpack a medikit? It's hard to say, because frankly not running through the lava should make that battle a lot easier, but I didn't think you were going to be so merciless

I expected the green armour to be enough of a bait to get players interested in checking out the pyramid more closely. What I will do is place a trail of bread crumbs (read: health boni) around the pyramid to make sure that most people get the right idea there. Having said that, the additional health on the climb means no additional health at the top, which I reckon is a decent compromise, because it also takes the edge off the fight at the top a little.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

I'd recommend making the switch that lowers the BK pillar a full linedef placed right in front of the FIREBLU pillar, as it's easier to miss activating it and wondering what to do

Denied. I don't want to make this map feel "comfortable", and clicking on a pillar while having all the time in the world isn't much to ask, imo.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The fight past the BK gate is a goddamn bloodbath. First, the player doesn't know about the cybie warping in behind them, second, cell is at a premium, and third: cacos blocking the player is super frustrating, especially in such a tight, crammed area. This is a fight that I pretty much died over and over and over again until I found a good time to hide & save in the pinkie cubby, and then died over and over until I could slip past the barons and run away. I assume you have some strat that works 100% of the time, but I could not deduce it at all and like I was trapped in a Doomguy meatgrinder. First thing I'd personally ditch is those goddamn cacos cluttering pathways up, but I'm sure they serve some kind of purpose. Honestly, having a lot more cell so the player can push through pinkies and barons might be the proper fix, though I'm sure it'll ruin the flow of combat. This absolutely needs adjustments though.

I've left UV unchanged, HMP has fewer cacos, hntr and lower have even less cacos and a BFG. Getting the cybie tethered to anything there isn't much to ask, all it might take is perhaps squeezing past him once or twice, at which point he'll be sufficiently busy so that players can work their rocket launcher. Built in cheese is when you know it's the same cybie, and use it to instantly tether him to the blocker-barons and vice versa. I concede that this isn't necessarily obvious, and it might take a few attempts for people to figure it out, but anybody who played that far will already know to drop saves beforehand. The fight can be done without any "galaxy brain strats", as is evidenced by Fonze's video where he almost beats it on his third attempt. Had he been less passive, he could have made it right then and there. I'd rather not water down UV, and simply give a bit more breathing room for lower settings. Additional cells for hntr and maybe even HMP are something I'd be willing too look into if needs be, however.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

Likewise, the rising platforming room is too brutal. I feel bad about lambasting this because it's such a cool puzzle under limit-removing conditions no less, but it's way too unforgiving for my dull keyboard reactions. I tried and failed multiple times even with saves, and then got to the winding path section near the end and had to give up—it's damn near impossible without being able to turn on a dime. Again, in a solo release this is a cool, frantic challenge, but you need to be accommodating for players like me that can't platform to save their life. My suggestion would be to honestly ditch a lot or all of the switches, as having to nimbly hit them while moving quickly is too taxing of a task.

The switches will stay, also not all doors reset and I'll keep it that way, which I believe is a fair enough compromise for people who get stuck at the winding path. Having said that, I've shortened the winding path on UV slightly regardless. I really don't wanna make giant leaps here, not because I can't, but because I wanna make sure that it doesn't end up being boring. Platforming is so polarizing that I can bend over backwards while riding a unicycle and juggling 50 burning chickens at the same time, and it'll still piss somebody off no matter how easy (relatively speaking) I make it. Hence I'd rather keep it decent for interested players, because the naysayers will inevitably try that setup once or twice after they understood what they need to be doing, and then they'll drop an IDCLIP anyway. I know it comes across like a copout, but that's just how it is. I simply see no point in trying to build a platforming section for people who don't like platforming. Also I don't like the idea of being swayed into making maps accessible for people who play keyboard only and suffer from the drawbacks of an inferior control scheme by choice. Apologies if this comes across like a sucker punch, but this section (in particular the winding path) simply wrecks keyboarders on UV (especially if you don't use things like "flip 180°"), and there is nothing I can do about that, unless I rebuild the entire thing, of course.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The big cavern fight is really cool and very dangerous. Might be a bit difficult for non slaughter players and rubes, so maybe you could throw down a green armor for folks, especially considering the cybie right afterwards. It's a good fight though, difficult without feeling like you're being blocked from moving (by some bullshit cacodemons ARRRGGHHH)

UV and HMP have a green armour now, hntr has a blue armour.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 10:14 PM, dobu gabu maru said:

The cyber afterwards is junk. It's really difficult to grab the cell without being shot or splash damaged, it's difficult to fight him without tripping into the lava, and there's so few cell that you're required to collect all of it. Fighting cybers on thin platforms is a bit iffy for me, and doubly if you're having to collect goodies while doing so. I know you'll hate this suggestion, but it really felt like the player needed a BFG here.

You're not obligated to multi task anything there. I don't even multi task that fight like that, and I built the bloody thing. The teleports will always take you into a safe corner, and it's really not difficult to hose the cybie with plasma from afar. HNTR already has a BFG, but HMP and UV won't be getting one, reason being that I don't want to give people the impression they'd need to attempt a 2-shot on the cyberdemon, which would be tricky with the terrain such as it is, for that matter. For HNTR I felt like I could get away with a BFG in the map, because people who pick that setting by default are much less likely to even consider a 2-shot. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but speaking from experience, plasma and BFG are about equal in cell-damage ratio over certain distances, I don't know where the "breaking point" is exactly, but the BFG won't be changing much, if anything, for like +90% of players. Having said that, I gave a little more room to mitigate the splash damage, which, coupled with the extra armour, seems forthcoming enough, given that the "fight" quite literally presents an easy solution on a silver platter as soon as you teleport away once after dropping in the lava. It's not a lock-in, there's no time pressure, and even though it isn't the "Mt.Cleverest" of fights, it's nowhere near as "janky" as you perceive it to be.

 

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Sorry I didn't post this earlier, but I did want to chime in and defend the cyber battle in the thin ledge area. I think the teleports in the lava make it fine - my own strategy was to purposely run off the ledges to pick up the plasma cell, fall off and jump into a teleport and immediately go to safety, rinse and repeat until I had the ammo I needed. Made me feel kinda smart (even though it's apparently intended by design) which I think is always a good feeling to give a player.

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