Ultimate Doom In Name Only - Limit removing project

cannonball said:

Also I would be rather interested in updates on your maps guys and gals.


I haven't started a new E1M2 yet, or E4M6, as I've been megabusy, but given that my Graytall effort is going down like a flaming Stuka that just encountered a P-51 Mustang, I should be able to start something next week.

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Wasn't in the mood for vanilla mapping quite a while plus i don't like my old concept anymore but i'll gonna start workin on something new as soon as i've finished all my Nova2 related stuff.

Unfinished stuff if anybody likes to use it as a base or whatever feel free to do so.

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Ok here is some feedback on the maps currently released in episode 1
E1M1: Hangar - ProcessingControl
I continue to feel positive about this one, I like the visuals and most of the gameplay, though the final ambush feels a little dull to be honest. Again the main critique here would be the length of the map, but it isn't offensively long though.

E1M3: Toxin Refinery - stewboy
Mixed feelings about this one, there are some nice ideas at times and the layout is fine requiring two keys to proceeds. The curved walkway and reveal is probably one of my favourite moments. The inter-connectivity feels a little forced and I think windows in some areas could be made larger (especially near the start and other areas) to improve the feel of the map. Also this map is very easy in my view and again could do with a little polish as well.
This map has potential but needs a little more care on the visual detail and the gameplay I think.

E1M4: Command Control - stewboy
Similar feelings here, there are things I like here, a lot of corridors which being so close to other ones could be connected more effectively to make progression a little easier and spice up the gameplay a bit. I do like the use of lighting at times in this map, some very dark and light areas. In general I feel that both your maps do tried to emulate some aspects of the original KDIND, but some of the execution over all still feels a little questionable.

E1M5: Phobos Lab - sincity2100
I might need to revised version of this map as it completely broke after grabbing the red key.
The visuals here are certainly interesting (I like the usage of fireblu btw) and the layout again is okay I feel. The demon usage here is extreme overkill and to be honest end up being ammo sinks rather than anything else. I think some mixing up of the monster types in the traps and varying the angle of attack could be beneficial here.

So overall, E1M1, E1M3 and E1M5 feel good enough to fit the slots they are in (in interpretation form at least). E1M4 doesn't feel like a command control if I am really honest. Of course this bit is certainly up for further discussion.

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Time for episode 2 - Just two maps in this episode so far

E2M1: Deimos Anomaly - Pedro VC
I thought this was pretty good, quite a lot of good atmosphere in there, the gameplay was okay too, though at times you seemed to face just one monster type at a time in clusters in corridors. The final fight was a little hectic but nothing too harsh.
Visuals were decent and I think we could get away with the name Deimos anomaly here.

E2M9: Fortress of Mystery - Dreadopp
This map requires a mandatory secret to beat the map. Hmm not sure about that, but again it is the secret slot.
Visuals look nice, but the gameplay was a little on the dull and easy side overall, the map could hold double the monsters and still not feel crowded. The baron usage is rather poor too. That said those those things can be fixed relatively easily. Is it a fortress of mystery? Not sure again to be honest.

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Finally got back to working on E4M7, should be done in a day or two (the map isn't that long or big).

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Onto episode 3 now

E3M1: Hell Keep - jmickle
There is a lot to like, but I feel that the start room could use a little work in design and visuals. Also I am still unsure about whether the cyber should be included in this map to be honest.
The visuals and architecture in the rest of the map are really nice though. The gameplay is solid throughout so I have no issues with keeping this map in the set, just a few changes could be made (my opinion of course :))

E3M5 - Unholy Cathedral by Corsair
Well lets start with the obvious, lets simply cut the present start area out of this and place the start point in front of what is currently sector 32. Lets start with the epic vantage point of the cathedral from the start and cut the rather tepid affair. Surprised vanilla copes with the start, which is a positive. This one is quite a slog so further notes will appear. But first impressions are that this map is too big.

I am looking forward to seeing your map AD_79 btw

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I'm going to drop out of the 2 slots that I have claimed. I feel that I personally don't have the ability to work creatively enough with the maps that have techbase names. I prefer a minimalist & more abstract route when making maps, & that doesn't mesh well at all with maps names like Military Base or Command Center. If any of the maps with names more open to interpretation open up I will gladly claim one of them, but until then my part in this project will be reduced to just testing maps & giving feedback to anyone who wants it.

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Ha, I have the opposite problem I think, I don't have the ability to do abstract stuff. So if you want you could take Pandemonium off my hands.
I might retake military base then in that case, E2M5 is up for grabs now.

Edit - Just a reminder that E4M5 is still open for takers as well.

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I might have a go at whipping something up for e2m5. I've never done a doom1 map so might be interesting...

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so, this evening i bring back my map and i worked on it... probably is also finished, just needs a pair of things and adding more monsters and stuff, here a layout of the map so far... i hope this could be good for the project...

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mouldy said:

I might have a go at whipping something up for e2m5. I've never done a doom1 map so might be interesting...

Yes, yes and double yes.
I will have a go at E4M5 as well I guess, just to see if I can make a map which will kick people ass more than Steve D's.

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E3M6: Mt. Erebus - joe-ilya
So a couple of general things.
Ammo seems fine now to me, though the ammo in the exit room could be scrapped along with the barons. A bit unnecessary for me. Visually this map could do with a little bit of a clean up too, that said the visuals I can tolerate to a degree anyway so no big problem. I would place a green armour somewhere within reach though in the main area as I succumbed to attrition several times in the starting area.
A few specific tweaks though
Sector 65 - Lets get rid of that thin central pillar on that lift, that annoyed me greatly, this area in general could use a little work (perhaps removing one of the barons would be a good idea).
Maybe a little extra health in a few places, that said the mandatory damage doesn't particularly bother me.
The secret exit needs addressing to be honest.

E3M9: Warrens - dobu gabu maru
I love this map, the sheer sense of dread and foreboding that comes with the gimmick here. I do wish there was a little more shotgun ammo to deal with some of the monsters here as the pistol was used on several occasions for me here, otherwise a great map. Does it fit the maps title? I would say just about I think.

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mouldy said:

I might have a go at whipping something up for e2m5. I've never done a doom1 map so might be interesting...


Coolness! I look forward to playtesting this when it's ready.

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Although I gave up E1M8 in another thread in EE, I think I'm just gonna start over and try it again from scratch. Deadline?

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Hopefully we should get a released during the second half of this year. I certainly would like to see that all the slots are seeing some decent forward progress by around June time.

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cannonball said:

E3M1: Hell Keep - jmickle
There is a lot to like, but I feel that the start room could use a little work in design and visuals. Also I am still unsure about whether the cyber should be included in this map to be honest.
The visuals and architecture in the rest of the map are really nice though. The gameplay is solid throughout so I have no issues with keeping this map in the set, just a few changes could be made (my opinion of course :))

Oops I missed this!

I agree on the architecture of the first room, I had an idea and kinda failed to execute it. I disagree on the cyber though, I messed around with other ideas but that entire room just doesn't work without it. Removing it would imo ruin the map.

However, I am unlikely to work on this map properly again, it's been a long while and other than tweaks for difficulty balancing or multiplayer support, I'm not sure I have the motivation to edit it. Maybe if there's a great call for something to be changed.

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cannonball said:

Hopefully we should get a released during the second half of this year. I certainly would like to see that all the slots are seeing some decent forward progress by around June time.


Guess I'll get cracking! I think classes are starting to slow a bit after the previous activity rushes, so I should have more time.

You know, so it's not an ugly underground hallway at 23 darkness that leads to an arena with ten Barons fist fucking the player at the same time. Granted, after I got done with the first part on the original, I planned on a more complex boss fight that involved keys or something, but still wasn't anything special. No, I didn't make the arena, but I thought about it briefly. Thirty Barons vs one player, and for a pistol start you get one shotgun. I don't think it has to be a boss map necessarily, but I'd personally want to make it one if that's alright, as that's what it normally is.




Hm, actually the single shotgun thing has got me thinking back to Jedi Outcast's final boss, and how you could either duel Desann to the end or just crush him with a pillar in the first ten seconds. I have no idea if any of these are good ideas.

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I did not like E1M1 at all. Considering that this is supposed to take the names of the original maps and build new maps around them, this pretty much completely fails to look like a hangar. The big room at the end, which I guess is supposed to be the hangar, is a featureless gray box. The rest of the architecture looks like a very mediocre 1995 wad; the gray textures are applied haphazardly and with very little flair.

And if the ideal E1 opener moves fast and is over fast, this map...doesn't. It's a slog, with not nearly enough ammo to avoid having to use the un-berserked fist a lot. The shooting gallery with the sergeants before dropping down into the final room brought back awful memories of TNT Evilution. Many of the encounters boil down to either trial and error to find the correct approach to avoid a sergeant crossfire, or slowly grinding your way through a wall of meat.

So yeah, it looks bad, it plays bad. And the music is downright offensive.

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Yeah, I think I said this way before in the old thread, but I agree with Woolie Wool on E1M1. I think it's a bad E1M1 for any WAD (just too long/sloggy) and the "Hangar" feels very tacked on at the end and not really the central part of the level. And, it might feel a bit unfair, but the first level should probably be one of the best ones, bit of a higher standard.

I'm gonna be honest mean, with the current maps (aside from dobu's Warrens, which I think hits both the "good level" and "good execution of the name idea" boxes) it kinda feels like D2INO all over again - a slapdash collection of maps that don't really fit the name and/or aren't fun to play.

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Magnusblitz said:

I'm gonna be honest mean, with the current maps (aside from dobu's Warrens, which I think hits both the "good level" and "good execution of the name idea" boxes) it kinda feels like D2INO all over again - a slapdash collection of maps that don't really fit the name and/or aren't fun to play.

What can we do about it? Stricter quality control, performed right when a map is submitted? Clearer guidelines how the map name should be recognizable in the maps? Or just reconciling with the fact that UDINO will inevitably end up being similar to D2INO in terms of quality and overall feel?

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scifista42 said:

Or just reconciling with the fact that UDINO will inevitably end up being similar to D2INO in terms of quality and overall feel?


Don't do this. Avoiding D2INO-quality is why I stepped down in the first place. Granted most maps were submitted during my tenure, but it's not too late yet!

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What about doing a public brainstorming about each map, coming up with ideas to make it fun and well playable while still loyal to the name in a way that everybody accepts? In this particular project where the map themes are basically given, it might help to prevent getting maps that are later found not enough satisfactory due to misconceptions or quality issues as perceived by multiple people who weren't the mapper.

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scifista42 said:
Stricter quality control, performed right when a map is submitted?


This should be all that is needed to be done to ensure good maps. After a quick scan through the old thread it seems that Me, Magnusblitz, CorSair, & Eris Falling all had issues with E1M1 not looking like a hanger at various periods long after the map was released & nothing has been done about it. This map does not represent Hanger at all & we should really stop putting off with dealing with the issue.

I don't really think that the map that can be turned into a map that represent Hanger without essentially starting over from scratch. So we could ask ProcessingControl to either try again or we could keep the map in & move it to say the E3M6 & have it reworked a bit as it kinda already feels like a mountain.

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The biggest issue here is the representational nature of the project, using an engine and texture set that isn't very good at representational design. For example, I served on board the aircraft carrier Enterprise, so I know what a hangar looks like on a carrier. I also served at a Naval Air Station, so I know what hangars on land look like. A hangar can be described very easily -- it's a great big empty box you put airplanes into. That's right, an enormous orthogonal space, just what scifista loves! ;)

I gave the old college try to create a Nuclear Plant. I originally thought about streams of nukage moving throughout a facility, with pumps to suggest a way to make the liquid move. Then I realized this was a great scenario . . . for Toxin Refinery. ;D So then I developed a map with a Reactor Room, a Pump Room and a Dynamo Room, the latter of which was, IMO, my crowning achievement in representational Doom architecture. But these are inherently big spaces, resulting in a giant map with 579 monsters. So now I plan to do a somewhat smaller map with a squinchy reactor and 1 dynamo, and a lot less monsters, but real nuclear plants are, of course, ginormous. Most real things, like military bases, are in fact immense.

So where does one draw the line between representing the name and making a map that can be played with pleasure in 15 - 30 minutes instead of 45 - 60?

Should we presume that cannonball has the right to modify maps to make them compliant, if the mapper refuses?

I believe a lot can be accomplished in playtesting. We'll see how it goes.

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