Ultimate Doom In Name Only - Limit removing project

SteveD said:

So where does one draw the line between representing the name and making a map that can be played with pleasure in 15 - 30 minutes instead of 45 - 60?


Implication can go a long way. This pic came up when I GIS'd "nuclear plant".



You could build the part highlighted in green, in a more abstract, gameplay-compatible form. Windows could look out on one side to the silos, rendered as well as the engine will allow, and on the other side to unreachable large areas. "Diorama detail", as DotW would put it.

The nondescript parts of whatever you're building should be prime targets for artistic license. After all, when the average person thinks of a nuclear plant, they probably imagine Homer Simpson the silos and a vaguely complex network of buildings. An interconnected Doom-typical layout with outdoor silos would pattern-match to "nuclear plant" as well as a real-world representation would.

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SteveD said:

The biggest issue here is the representational nature of the project, using an engine and texture set that isn't very good at representational design. For example, I served on board the aircraft carrier Enterprise, so I know what a hangar looks like on a carrier. I also served at a Naval Air Station, so I know what hangars on land look like. A hangar can be described very easily -- it's a great big empty box you put airplanes into. That's right, an enormous orthogonal space, just what scifista loves! ;)


I disagree that Doom isn't very good at representational design, you've got to remember that all of Tom Halls map were specifically designed to represent real places. The real Hanger of Doom is actually E2M7 the S shaped room in the south east corner of the map was the hanger before Sandy changed it to whatever it is now. Being a former air force guy I know that a hanger isn't just a big empty box, there are all sorts of offices & other rooms inside of the building as well, depending on what kind of airplanes you work on the section that actually holds the aircraft can be quite a small area compared to the overall size of the building.

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SteveD said: I also served at a Naval Air Station, so I know what hangars on land look like. A hangar can be described very easily -- it's a great big empty box you put airplanes into. [/B]


This is a relatively small hangar:



Stairs are leading up to a room (or hole) in the back. It shouldn't strain believability too much to make the inter-hangar network of stairs and ledges a bit more extensive, and to extend the hole into a more complex network of rooms, and to employ "spaceship skew" a la BTSX, instead of pure orthogonality.

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I'm glad my words got people thinking, though I'll admit I was not pulling a rhetorical trick to make that happen, but it's a nice side effect. :)

@rdwpa -- I'm guessing the highlighted area in the nuclear facility pic is probably either labs or administrative offices, though the latter might be in the big black building. The question is, where's the reactor? I'm guessing it's in the windowless concrete building with the silos. The reactor is the sexy part, of course. ;)

@rdwpa and Jaws -- Nice to see another serviceman, Jaws! Yes, I know a hangar has more to it than just a big empty box. In the case of the Enterprise, where IIRC the hangar was about 800 feet long by 100 feet wide, it had a whole 90,000-ton ship carrying over 5,000 guys attached, and that included no fewer than 8 -- count 'em, 8! -- nuclear reactors far below, which gave The Big E the power to make 37 knots, the fastest aircraft carrier ever built. But you really can't get away from the big empty box, even if there's a lot of detail in the box and offices and gallery catwalks and whatnot. I mentioned that in part to have some fun with scifista, since he has a tendency to mention orthogonal architecture. In reality, a hangar is probably one of the easiest things to do in terms of Doom representational architecture, since it is, after all, a box -- even a relatively smaller box for civilian aircraft as in rdwpa's example -- which is right up Doom's alley.

I'm lucky insofar as 2 of my 3 slots are in E4, where I can do just about anything I want as long as it's brutal. The E1M2 slot is the toughie, but I'll figure something out. I should probably Google "reactor room" before getting started.

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SteveD said:

The E1M2 slot is the toughie, but I'll figure something out. I should probably Google "reactor room" before getting started.


Here's a rough sketch-wad of a nuclear plant layout I cobbled together in half an hour, feel free to use/ignore/get some inspiration from it
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ian1a7airno13d2/e1m2.wad
I don't even know what one looks like, but as long as you have some cooling towers and a reactor core I think anything else goes.

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mouldy said:
Here's a rough sketch-wad of a nuclear plant layout I cobbled together in half an hour, feel free to use/ignore/get some inspiration from it


That's pretty damned cool, mouldy. I really like the height variation. I ran it through GZDoom and CRL. I anticipated a lot of HOMs, but there were only a couple of them, and those can be eliminated rather easily by simplifying the cooling towers and perhaps eliminating some of the windows.

I'd actually like to use this as the end-point of a smallish map, having Doomguy go through a short admin/tech area before getting outside.

So if you and cb are okay with it, I'd like to collaborate on this.

I'm really glad I did some whining. ;)

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I'm guessing a Phobos Anomaly is something that's not a tech base. I was just building a dig site.

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Anomaly - "something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected"

This kinda sounds like it could be fun to me. I'd do like an opposite map kinda thing where doors open down & grabbing a key turns the lights on & stuff like that.

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Started working on my allready 4th attempt for 'Unruly Evil' a few days ago, i came up with the idea of a rather small but highly connective map full of 'dummy monster' controlled lifts allowing enemies to chase and reach you everywhere around the map.

This project is tbh the most difficult effort i've ever worked on. Mainly because it's really hard to create something that really fits the given name + being forced to vanilla limits complicates the creation of abstracted things furthermore, so i will likely surrender in case my recent attempt might fail.

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tourniquet said:

This project is tbh the most difficult effort i've ever worked on. Mainly because it's really hard to create something that really fits the given name + being forced to vanilla limits complicates the creation of abstracted things furthermore, so i will likely surrender in case my recent attempt might fail.


No don't surrender I love your maps, it would be a shame to loose you from this project.

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Ha, relax Jaws i said "likely" and i haven't given up yet :)

One a side note i like the idea of a general discussion about concepts and how to approach each map to become a proper representation of the name.

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jmickle66666666 said:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8943931/doomwads/hellkeep.wad

e3m1, same link as in OP, updated

-added player 2,3,4 starts
-preliminary difficulty settings
-fixed VPO issue
-improved visuals, especially the start area


The start area looks nice, good job.

A couple of final suggestions to help make sure that 100% kills is possible would be to include a berserk pack and possibly a second secret housing a rocket launcher and a couple of rockets perhaps. Apart from that the map is good to go :)

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tourniquet said:

One a side note i like the idea of a general discussion about concepts and how to approach each map to become a proper representation of the name.


My thoughts:

E1M1 Hanger - To me this map should take place at least partly inside of a hanger. I personally envision a map that is about 50% actual aircraft hanger & the other 50% to be composed of offices & whatnot just to make the map actually interesting. I would take inspiration from the Doom alpha version of E2M7 of perhaps Evilution map 19
E1M2 Nuclear Plant- For this map I would set the map inside of a nuclear plant, including such structure as rector looking things a pool of toxic waste, & of course don't forget to let us see those cooling towers. I would take inspiration from Evilution map 6. Heck I'd even recommend looking at E1M5 of this wad as I think if was to be reworked a little bit it could be a great Nuclear Plant.
E1M3 Toxin Refinery - Refinery - "A refinery is a production facility for converting raw material into products of value" To me this map need to be set in an industrial kind of setting where Green slime is turned into water or something like that. In the Doom alphas E2M3 is the original refinery, the opening shot of Habitat form Evilution has an example of how the effect of turning green slime into water could be done.
E1M4 Command Control - I envision this map as a aircraft control tower, so I wold expect to see offices & of course a control tower overlooking an airport or something. A use of inspiration could be taken from map 4 of Phobos.wad from 1998, the same could be said for the 3 previous maps as well because Phobos tried to do exactly what we are doing here.
E1M5 Phobos Lab - I think in part the current E1M5 gets Phobos lab right, it's the room with the health potions on the tables, but in addition to that I see rooms sealed off by double doors with large windows to look through to see experiments going on inside.
E1M6 Central Processing - I totally envision this being similar to the first map from Doom 3 where you go through the process of decontamination & whatnot.
E1M7 Computer Station - A train station full up computer? I don't know just make sure there are computers everywhere & it will feel like a computer station to me.
E1M8 Phobos Anomaly - Anomaly - "something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected" This kinda sounds like it could be fun to me. I'd do like an opposite map kinda thing where doors open down & grabbing a key turns the lights on & stuff like that. You could really expand on that definition by making the map a standard techbase even. People expect E1M8 to always look different for the rest of the episode, why not deviate from the standard & throw everyone off.
E2M1 Deimos Anomaly - The same could be said for this map, everyone expects it will be done in the shores of hell theme, why not make it a standard techbase that would fit right in with E1.
E2M2 Containment Area - E2M2 already did this one right, I don't expect this to be anything other than a crate maze
E2M3 Refinery - See E1M3 above, just don't do a toxin refinery, perhaps refine blocks of ashwall in to blocks of metal or something, or turn trees into wood.
E2M4 Deimos Lab - E2M4 was always called lab even in the Doom alphas, though I'm not sure it really looks like a lab to me, see my thoughts on E1M5 above.
E2M5 Command Center - See my thoughts on E1M4 from above, except not the control tower part. I think E3M3 was control center in the Doom alphas so maybe look at that map?
E2M6 Halls of the Damned - You could do anything on this map as long as it has some hallways. I think E1M4 of this wad would be a pretty good inspiration as is uses interestingly shaped hallways throughout the map, if fact I think this would be a great spot for that map.
E2M7 Spawning Vats - this ones a bit open to interpretation, it could be monster stored in tubes getting released, having monsters rise out of slime pits, some weird effect I'm not thinking of, I just expect monsters to be spawned rater than placed throughout the map.
E2M8 Tower of Babel - There had better be a tower for me to climb.
E2M9 Fortress of Mystery - I think the fortress part is pretty easy, it's the Mystery part that needs to be addressed so that we don't end up with a repeat of Tricks & Traps from D2INO. Perhaps should could be taken advantaged of in this map, you hit a switch & you have to listen to find out what it does.
E3M1 Hell Keep - A castle in hell
E3M2 Slough Of Despair - Slough - "an area of soft, muddy ground; swamp or swamp like region" well I expect to see a swamp with lots of trees, an overall dark & depressing feeling to the map sounds about right.
E3M3 Pandemonium - Chaos, chaos is monster placement, chaos in texturing, you will not be standing still in this map.
E3M4 House Of Pain - A my house wad
E3M5 Unholy Cathedral - A Cathedral with an upside down cross
E3M6 Mt Erebus - I expect to see rocky architecture & a how about a map that is actually a mountain for a change.
E3M7 Limbo - Limbo is the first level of Hell in Dante's Inferno. Read Dante's inferno, it's a pretty awesome book.
E3M8 Dis - Dis is comprised of the 6th through 9th level of Hell in Dante's inferno, it's essentially downtown Hell city, the 9th level of hell is a frozen wasteland trapping Satan himself.
E3M9 Warrens -Warrens - 'a densely populated or labyrinthine building or district" I think that the current map perfectly fits this name.
E4M1 Hell Beneath - To me Hell Beneath means that Hell would be literally right under you feet, so I would expect to see Floor6_l used as it seems like rock that is about to melt due to immense heat, I would attempt to make the map look like it's about to burst into flames due to being so close to Hell, which is often described as a lake of fire. Lastly I would make it as an underground map as I always assumed that Hell was underground so that just makes sense to me.
E4M2 Perfect Hatred -?
E4M3 Sever The Wicked - Chainsaw Map
E4M4 Unruly Evil - Unruly - "disorderly and disruptive and not amenable to discipline or control."
E4M5 They Will Repent -?
E4M6 Against Thee Wickedly -?
E4M7 And Hell Followed - If I remember correctly Mayhem 2013 map 8 is a good example of what I think this map should be like
E4M8 Unto The Cruel -?
E4M9 Fear -Asylum of the wretched of Arcadia Demade should be used as inspiration for this map as they have a very atmospheric tone to them that made me scared of Doom when I played them.

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SteveD said:

That's pretty damned cool, mouldy. I really like the height variation. I ran it through GZDoom and CRL. I anticipated a lot of HOMs, but there were only a couple of them, and those can be eliminated rather easily by simplifying the cooling towers and perhaps eliminating some of the windows.

I'd actually like to use this as the end-point of a smallish map, having Doomguy go through a short admin/tech area before getting outside.

So if you and cb are okay with it, I'd like to collaborate on this.


You are free to use that any way you like. You might need to keep an eye on possible VPO problems as you add more detail and scenery to it, those vanilla limits are a pain when there is so much visibility.

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I really like the idea of remaking UDoom the way the maps would look if they were closer to what their names imply. The only thing that is irritating me is this constant need for Udoom projects to be vanilla compatible. I'd like to do a map for this, but forcing restrictions feels so stupid when you want to be creative and make something larger than was possible back in '93. We did DTWID. Which was great, but seriously, ease up on the rules and regulations and just let people make what they want to make for this.

Why do we have ports anyway if everyone just wants vanilla compatible maps now?

Yeah yeah yeah, i know. You like the challenge of being restricted. But it seems this way for every UDoom or Doom 2 set now. Aren't you all tired of restricting yourselves?

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Jaws In Space said:

E4M7 And Hell Followed - If I remember correctly Mayhem 2013 map 8 is a good example of what I think this map should be like


Well good, turns out I'm restarting my map and having another go at it. This should be useful, heh.

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General Rainbow Bacon said:

Yeah yeah yeah, i know. You like the challenge of being restricted. But it seems this way for every UDoom or Doom 2 set now. Aren't you all tired of restricting yourselves?


Thanks for saying this. I don't like the challenge of making something cool under vanilla restrictions. I don't like using CRL to look for HOMs. It's an eye-rape just to use that thing. I reckon that because D2INO was vanilla-compat, it was decided that UDINO should continue the trend, but the original leaders have turned the project over, so maybe we should consider taking off the shackles?

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SteveD said:

Vanilla sux


I can fully comprehend you Steve, being restricted to vanilla limits is pretty tricky in context with this project.
Nonetheless i think i would be kinda unfair towards those few who allready managed to create a solid interpretation of the map name.

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Well, then finish this up, then I'll start a thread for UDoom INO part 2, limit-removing goodness version.

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General Rainbow Bacon said:

Well, then finish this up, then I'll start a thread for UDoom INO part 2, limit-removing goodness version.


mmmmmmmhmmmmmmm

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General Rainbow Bacon said:

Well, then finish this up, then I'll start a thread for UDoom INO part 2, limit-removing goodness version.


Ah, just leave out the INO part and do a limit-removing UDoom megawad. That's the ticket! The INO belongs to Jayextee, if I'm not mistaken.

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I wasn't going to raise the issue again (since last time the answer was basically "it's vanilla, discussion over") but since it's been raised, I'll throw in my two cents again - I'm also firmly in the "we should go limit-removing" camp. I firmly believe the central tenet should be the IN NAME ONLY aspect - in other words, it should fit the name. To me, requiring it to be vanilla compatible (because "that's what id had to do") is more harmful than good. Yes, I'm aware of the whole 'limits force creativity" argument, but, there's still a large sliding scale between something like ZDoom and limit-removing.

Half the reason the levels in Doom are so esoteric is precisely because of the vanilla limits - and so keeping those same limits is going to result in a lot of similar-type levels. Not to pick on anyone, but let's take stewboy's E1M4 level for an example - to me, it just feels like a decent E1 replacement level. There's nothing about it that says "Command Control" to me, and it just feels like Phobos Techbase Level #12241. I'm not saying it's a bad map, but I don't feel like it lives up to the project goals.

Just speaking from my own experience here, but vanilla limits frequently goes past 'forcing creativity' and into just straight frustrating. It's very difficult to create large outside areas, for example. I've found that staircases in large outdoor areas are a huge no-no, forcing the use of lifts or teleporters. That just isn't fun. Besides, the project itself has constraints - you have to create something that fits the name! Focus more on that instead of vanilla (and copying the general structure of the IWAD weapon/monster usage).

I do think that now is the time to have this conversation, though - because to be honest, I think there's only a couple maps that would be worth including at this point. I also think opening it up into limit-removing might help draw more attention/authorship, especially if we basically start over "from scratch" (reject almost all the maps, and allow the 2-3 good ones to be resubmitted). I see a lot of the slots claimed, but only about one-third actually even have a map posted yet (and IMO many of those maps are reject-worthy). This project isn't very close to getting done, so the time is now if it's going to be overhauled.

Scifista asked what I would do to ensure better quality control... I really do think that every map that gets submitted should require the author to post a decently-sized explanation on what they understand the map name to mean ("A 'Warrens' is...") and then explain how their map fits that name.

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Well, I suppose if it were limit-removing I'd be able to do... well, more. I'm perfectly fine with working within vanilla limits, though.

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