Sydney Siege

[Doomkid]

So, unsurprisingly, I haven't seen a thread (or even post in passing) about the recent hostage situation in Sydney. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people have no clue it happened, so I want to bring it to light.

Russel Brand sums it up quite well here:

Just posting so people can be informed about recent happenings in the 51st state!

EDIT: Wow man, I don't recommend reading that comment section.. A bunch of ignorant redneck Aussies spouting off about how Muslims are "warped" just because they're muslim. Exactly what was predicted has happened.. Too many Australians have used this as an excuse to "hate those brown people" rather than see that a tiny, TINY fraction of them are even remotely close to "terrorists".

It's like, hey, Adolf Hitler was white, so all white people MUST be jew-hating nazis, amirite?

Fucking hell, people are even saying that he has "no respect" for the people who died in the incedent.. How in the hell does having an opinion mean you suddenly "don't care" about the people who died? Man, I fucknig hate the human tendancy to just go with the rest of the hive rather than thinking for yourself..

[Marcaek]

Where are you getting "the majority" from? Sounds like conjecture.

[Doomkid]

Anecdotal, and yes, well grounded conjecture. More people, both on the web and in person, have expressed this anti-brown people view. I have already talked (or debated, really) two friends out of this ignorant stance and hopefully won't have to continue doing so.

Even if it is the minority - we can only hope - it doesn't make the view any less absurd and frankly, extremist. It's better not to see the people become that which they claim to hate, yeah?

EDIT: Fixed wording in OP to avoid any further posts that don't actually contribute to the essence of the discussion. I'm glad you pointed it out, I don't want to be the one spreading falsities. Hopefully most Doomworld users will agree that this is no reason to follow in the footsteps of the US and start wavng our "damn dem brown terrists" flags. I'm curious what you all think.

[Technician]

Brown people? You know a large chunk of the Muslim population is white, right? You know, the ones from the Balkans, the Caucus and central Asia.

[Doomkid]

Yes, I know that, but many people spouting off do not. They would see a white Muslim and would be more inclined to trust him just because he's white. He meets one of two criteria, unlike the dark skinned muslims, who do not meet any of the criteria.

This is my entire point, judgements are being made based on superficial bullshit, judgements that could have seriously horrendous reprecussions. Mass media should be making it clear that someone's religion, nor the color of their skin, makes them an ally of "ISIS" or any other terrorist group out there, yet that distinction is certainly not being drawn.

I had to look to mother-fucking Russel Brand for a valid opinion on this topic as it was so hard to find anyone making any sense. Naturally, I'm thinking the situation is a bit desperate.

On a side note, Tone Abet's plans of making things "inconvienient for the sake of safety" are just flat out moronic. Yeah, that stuff worked real great in the US post-911! It definitely didn't make the country seem weak to threats, it definitely didn't just piss off the American public and cause total internal discord that's still being felt today! [/sarcasm]

[Superluigieth1]

I was going to do a thread like this, but I passed on.

[Blastfrog]

While I think special treatment such as being allowed to subvert secular law in following sharia is going overboard, I'm disgusted by the poor treatment many Muslims receive in the west. I've known several Muslims and they're all great people who aren't stereotypical at all. What bothers me most is the willful ignorance of the right wing in the US.

The Faux Snooze types will always say stupid shit like "no Muslims ever condemn any extremist attacks" despite being demonstrably false. Individual Muslims call out the violent thugs and Muslim organizations always put out statements whenever these attacks arise in the news.

Superluigieth1 said:

but I passed on.

My condolences. Meanwhile, I didn't know that zombies were able to use forums.

[GreyGhost]

Doomkid said:

On a side note, Tone Abet's plans of making things "inconvienient for the sake of safety" are just flat out moronic.

That's just what we need, a "Team Australia" act. Though it's probably to be expected, since politicians tend to over-react to situations like this with legislation that's way out of proportion to the perceived threat. The end result will be a win for the government terrorists enemies of freedom.

I'm not sure what to make of the gunman, possibly mentally unstable and undoubtedly violent but I don't know that he fits the brainwashed zealot profile that seems to typify islamists.

[geo]

I don't like getting my news from someone working out of his house. That goes for Russell Brand, Jim Sterling or Total Biscuit. It seems unprofessional. Like they're commenting on the news, not reporting it.

[Maes]

Australia has already one of the harshest -if not the harshest- policies versus immigration and presumably Islam of any Western country:

I know for a fact, that if a similar video was made in Greece, with a no-nonsense military man telling would-be illegals the same things, all kinds of "solidarity" and "antifa" organizations and lobbies would act all butthurt and heartbleed over it.

And yet, even this was not enough to keep the problem out of their yard, so to speak. Of course, there are differences: Greece is hit by hordes of islamic migrants because it happens to be in a bad geographical spot -quite literally, the "toilet corner" of Europe. But Australia has attracted attention to it both because of its prosperity, and because it's a member of the not-so-informal Anglosphere alliance, with direct military involvement, making its citizens "legitimate targets" for islamic militants.

[Doomkid]

geo said:

they're commenting on the news, not reporting it.

This is true, but considering that it's all I've seen on TV the last week or so, I'll tell ya it's a valid set of comments. I don't watch much TV anyways, though..

@Maes, Soda and GreyGhost, all your posts are well informed. I have no disagreements. Australia's policy is pretty much fine as-is, not sure why good ol' Tone (fucking retard) sees this as a need for change. I guess all it takes to turn this country go topsy-turvy is one fucking lunatic with a gun. Doesn't make much sense to me. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a dumb Yank who moved here because it's "like a better USA".

I'm lucky my dad's an Aussie or it woulda been impossible to get citizenship, and even though my mom has an Aussie citizen for a son and has had an Australian husband for over 20 years, even she had to jump through rings of fire to get citizenship, speaking exactly to what Maes posted..

[Technician]

It could be worse, Maes, you could be Sweden. With it's 55 literal no-go zones, Sweden ensures enrichment for all. Don't like it? Better not talk about it.

[Maes]

Technician said:

It could be worse, Maes, you could be Sweden.[/url]

Don't think that pressure groups/NGOs/lobbies etc. haven't tried to steer the public opinion towards such an unconditional "acceptance" even here, by organizing "anti-hate" festivals, trying to pass "anti-racism" laws etc. but (so far) it didn't work for a number of reasons, including the inherent dislike for muslims still rooted in the average Greek, the existence of a "soft" racism deeply ingrained in Greek society (which can't be abolished with a law), and the lack of a "white guilt" sentiment among Greeks.

But the main difference between Sweden and Greece in this respect is that Sweden might have fewer muslims immigrants numerically, but that they are all legalized, granted asylum etc., plus for all I know, Swedish women may have a weak spot for some Habib & Ahmet schlong.

In Greece, muslims coming from 3rd world shitholes are vastly superior numerically (estimates range between 500,000-1,000,000), but they are for the greatest part illegals and transients, and paradoxically they are not as organized or violent as the ones in Sweden, which seem to rigged the game in their favour accross the entire board.

[Doomkid]

Wow.... Maes, again, what you've just posted also applies to Aussies almost across the board. I'm not going to say wether or not I think that's a good or bad thing - I'm totally Atheist, and thus think religious reasoning is kinda absurd, but it does make sense, at least from a political perspective.

[Clonehunter]

Australia has always been a big prison colony, probably comparable to the one from Chronicles of Riddick, with the big killer dogs that hunt down people, and the natives that attack newcomers on site. I met a prisoner once who was a big asshole jerk, murderous, racist, deplorably evil. Clearly all prisoners are like, and coincidently, so are Australians (Except Irwin of course, God rest him).

[geo]

Doomkid said:

This is true, but considering that it's all I've seen on TV the last week or so, I'll tell ya it's a valid set of comments. I don't watch much TV anyways, though..

I used to have the news on 8 hours a day. In the past month I've lived in a bubble. I suppose if you don't know something then its news.

[Maes]

Australia is a pretty badass place anyway, full of some of the most poisonous and aggressive animals on the planet, and a "street culture" of the people to match.

As for illegals....heh, if they really want to make Australia their home, why not just dumping them in the middle of the outback, thousands of km away from the nearest major cities, and let the desert, the aborigines, and the wild beasts take care of them? Those tough/motivated enough to survive are probably good enough to keep around. The rest were just riff-raff.

In Greece we could simply dump them on one of countless barren rock islands. Hey, free permanent vacations in the World's Most Beatiful Country (TM), full of Sea & Sun (TM)! What's that? You wanted Euros and Europe? Well, sorree!!!

[Technician]

Maes said:

Don't think that pressure groups/NGOs/lobbies etc. haven't tried to steer the public opinion towards such an unconditional "acceptance" even here, by organizing "anti-hate" festivals, trying to pass "anti-racism" laws etc. but (so far) it didn't work for a number of reasons, including the inherent dislike for muslims still rooted in the average Greek, the existence of a "soft" racism deeply ingrained in Greek society (which can't be abolished with a law), and the lack of a "white guilt" sentiment among Greeks.

In the long run, that's what makes the Balkans more resilient to social manipulation and EU whitewashing. Western Europe has a romanticized attitude towards multicultural coexistence while the Slav states still have memories of Turkic occupation fresh in their minds. Though the Turks were never as fanatical as the Paki/Afghan, Sudanese/Somali Muslims they're shipping in.

[Technician]

To sway this topic in another direction, does anyone else find it odd that it was an Iranian committing this act in support of the Islamic State?

[Maes]

Not any odder than the fact that citizens of western countries, with no arab/middle eastern descent (including women) decide to become muslisms and join ISIS.

[Technician]

Yeah, but they really hate the Shia. Can we assume this guy actually thinks the Iranian Republic is too progressive and needs to fall to ISIS? Who knows. Everything I read about this guy makes him out to be a walking contradiction. He comes off as being genuinely stupid.

[stewboy]

As a Sydneysider this hasn't really affected my life that much. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I followed it live throughout the day and had to go through the city via train that afternoon while it was still going on - the trains were surprisingly empty (for peak hour), naturally. I didn't feel much reaction - but I'm annoyed the guy chose the Lindt Cafe. I really liked that cafe, I've been there several times.

[kb1]

Doomkid said:

Yes, I know that, but many people spouting off do not. They would see a white Muslim and would be more inclined to trust him just because he's white. He meets one of two criteria, unlike the dark skinned muslims, who do not meet any of the criteria.

Sodaholic said:

While I think special treatment such as being allowed to subvert secular law in following sharia is going overboard, I'm disgusted by the poor treatment many Muslims receive in the west. I've known several Muslims and they're all great people who aren't stereotypical at all. What bothers me most is the willful ignorance of the right wing in the US.

Just making a point by underlining some words in these posts, to indicate the irony in them. Basically, your point is that some people use inappropriate criteria to hate some other people. Yet, in both your responses, you do the same thing. All people prejudge, and most people have tendencies to lump groups of people together and label them - that's human nature. But, don't think your shit stinks any less than anyone else's.

I will admit: If I see someone walk down the street, I absolutely make judgement calls: "Do I want to talk to that person?" "Is that person sane?" "Is that person going to threaten me?" "Do they look showered, or will they smell bad?" Again, that's human nature, and it's completely healthy and normal - it keeps us safe.

Now, if I've seen 100 X (fill in the blank) people, and 95 of them act like assholes, you can bet that when I see X person #101, I will have an idea in my head about who they are, and what they're about. But, I know that this is just a guess, and that that person may become my best friend. But, will I over extend myself to make friends? Nope. I will trust my instinct, and keep my distance, until I have more info.

What I will NOT do, is get on an internet forum, and proclaim that I hate X people, because they tend to hate Y people, and that's wrong.

They? white? brown? West? great? stereotypical? Right-wing? US? willful ignorance?

You guys talk as if you know what happens in everyone's head. My guess is that the hate in their hearts is as strong for them, as the hate in your hearts is to you. They probably believe that their logic is as sound as you feel your logic is.

Do you expect everyone to just hold hands and sing songs, and spread peace and love, and become "willfully ignorant" of the atrocities that they've witnessed, being perpetrated by "those" people? And, if so, will you immediately do the same, and drop your hate? Honestly? Without the ability to read minds, how would you instruct me to behave in this world? You would you suggest that I trust, for example, everyone, unconditionally, despite what I've seen in my life?

Please understand, I am not trying to single you out in this thread, and I am not criticizing you for your hate - it's normal. But don't criticize others for the same thing, without recognizing that it's the same thing - that's hypocrisy.

[GreyGhost]

Doomkid said:

I guess all it takes to turn this country go topsy-turvy is one fucking lunatic with a gun.

You also need a lunatic to draft the "Team Australia" legislation and a few more to push it through parliament.

Clonehunter said:

big asshole jerk, murderous, racist, deplorably evil.

I'd like that as my custom title, so everyone will know I'm the quintessential Aussie. :P

Maes said:

As for illegals....heh, if they really want to make Australia their home, why not just dumping them in the middle of the outback, thousands of km away from the nearest major cities, and let the desert, the aborigines, and the wild beasts take care of them? Those tough/motivated enough to survive are probably good enough to keep around. The rest were just riff-raff.

AFAIK, our first muslim immigrants were Afghan camel drivers who adapted to conditions in the outback quite well, probably better than the early white explorers and settlers.

[Doomkid]

(Hehe, I'm about to do that annoying "chain of quotes" style post that others hate so much)

kb1 said:

I will admit: If I see someone walk down the street, I absolutely make judgement calls [...] that's human nature, and it's completely healthy and normal - it keeps us safe.

Okay, this is a decent point, and of course holds true.

kb1 said:

your point is that some people use inappropriate criteria to hate some other people. Yet, in both your responses, you do the same thing.

Where did I claim to hate anyone in any of my posts? I musta missed that part. I'm saying I hate when people use prejudice to a fault, IE using it to validate racism. Not 'valid' prejusices you mentioned like rather or not someone looks dangerous/on edge/insane. I guess what constitues 'valid' will be different to everyone, though.

kb1 said:

You guys talk as if you know what happens in everyone's head. My guess is that the hate in their hearts is as strong for them, as the hate in your hearts is to you. They probably believe that their logic is as sound as you feel your logic is.

Woah woah, this is stretching things really far. Where did I (or Soda) claim to know what 'happens in everyone's head'? You just made that up! D:

Also, I don't think of myself as harboring much 'hate in my heart' so to speak. If my position leads me to post stuff on internet forums, and someone elses position leads them to literally hate other entire sects of people for no other reason than their religion/race, I will happily claim my "shit stinks less", because it freakin' does.

kb1 said:

You would you suggest that I trust, for example, everyone, unconditionally, despite what I've seen in my life?

You really are stretching this as far as you can, aren't you? Telling someone not to hate another just because they're Muslim translates to saying "never hate anyone ever"? I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but honestly, are you baked or something? Seriously, I'm not trying to insult you. I do see where you're coming from with some of this, but please take a step back and properly look just how far you've stretched our words.

Keep in mind I was quite heated while writing the OP. That said, I don't see anything there I want to take back. I'm not gonna assume that just because someone is a "bogan" that means they fit this "I hate muslims" bill. There's a valley between judging everyone under a blanket, and judging people on a case-by-case system.

I give everyone I meet a chance, unless my gut instinct is strongly telling me to avoid them, which doesn't happen all too much. As you said, it's a natural response for the sake of safety anyhow.

I don't want any of my post to be misinterpereted as hateful or spiteful. I totally get what you're saying, I really do - Hypocricy is very annoying - But I don't feel I was all that hypocritical. If someone hates a Muslim dude who also robs stores and starts fights or something, I obviously can tell they're judging others individually rather than by superficial BS labels. That's my major point here.

Technician said:

Everything I read about this guy makes him out to be a walking contradiction. He comes off as being genuinely stupid.

This dude was tapped - Everything he said is just garbage, it's best to just ignore it. It's the ramblings of a nutcase.

Clonehunter said:

Australia has always been a big prison colony, probably comparable to the one from Chronicles of Riddick, with the big killer dogs that hunt down people, and the natives that attack newcomers on site. I met a prisoner once who was a big asshole jerk, murderous, racist, deplorably evil. Clearly all prisoners are like, and coincidently, so are Australians (Except Irwin of course, God rest him).

Best post of thread, RIP in peace Irwin.

[Superluigieth1]

Maes said:

some silly video with bill nye

Ever heard of 'White Australia'?