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Inkie

Your thoughts on weapons in DM

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Pistol - Its like the machine gun in quake, its the you have until you find a good weapon. Its kinda supposed to suck. Most modern DM packs seem to just spawn you on top of another weapon, so the pistol is just sort of there.

If I were to change it, maybe I'd model it after the duke nukem one. Have it shoot a bit faster with more accuracy, with a clip reload to balance it out. Maybe have it have reduced time to switch to and from it to emphasize it as a finisher.


Fist (And chainsaw) - The emergency melee weapons you don't really want to use. For whatever reason there is almost always a chainsaw in the exit room. Generally people seems to move too fast for melee to be anything but chaotic flailing about.

I probably wouldn't bother changing the punch. Maybe I'd make the chainsaw chew faster, and maybe try to give it more range if possible.


Shotgun - Sort of the new pistol, usually what you spawn on. Unlike the pistol, it has a greater chance to be lethal. Not a whole lot of point in it once you upgrade to double barrel.

Maybe I'd make it shoot slightly faster to compete with the SS.


Super Shotgun - It's the bread and butter main combat weapon. Its very common and used often.

I'd use this as the base comparison to changing the other guns.


Chaingun - The gun with the longest effective range. While the other guns tend to be more twitchy, this one rewards tracking. Still, a majority of DM encounters tend to be short range.

One could go in two directions with changing this gun. One could make it more of a sniping gun, or make it more of a bullet hose.


Rocket Launcher - Can be a bit hard to use sometimes, maybe because I'm used to more modern games where you can just shoot the floor. In doom you either need to hit them directly or use a wall. At least it is incredibly powerful when it does connect.

I probably would not change this gun.


Plasma Gun - More of an area denial gun, since it can be really difficult to lead shots on such fast enemies. Just fill up a corridor with your balls.

Can't really think of a good change to this gun.


BFG - More power up than gun, always requires a bit of work to reach, and then you can grab a bunch of kills with a but of aim.

I probably would not change this gun, either.

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I think Doom's armory is fine. On one hand you have people who seriously underestimate to SG and CG (to the point of just not using either at all) and on the other part of Doom DM is having to do some legwork to get better hardware. If you remove the low tier entirely there's no incentive to go find your SSG or power weapons which removes a tactical layer from the gameplay. Item control may not be as pronounced as it is in Quake but it does exist.

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Inkie said:

Pistol - Its like the machine gun in quake, its the you have until you find a good weapon. Its kinda supposed to suck.

Machinegun in Quake 3 Arena is a great weapon on various maps. It doesn't kill as quickly as other weapons, but quickly enough to be efficient in an FFA match (and even duels). You spawn in a map and see your half-damaged opponents fighting each other, and you can just aim at one of them and shoot while keeping the aim, and collect frags this way.

Anyway, for Doom's weapons in DM, I agree with you thoroughly. Pistol and melee weapons are practically useless, and if they're not, then it's probably the DM map that sucks. Shotgun is like the new pistol, good starter (like the machinegun in Quake 3, I'd say). Chaingun allows long range combat. SSG makes Doom's deathmatch. RL and PG are good, but tricky, because they fire relatively slow projectiles which can be easily avoided unless you're lucky or you spam them all over the place, in addition you have to be careful with RL to not blow up yourself. BFG is, as you say, like a powerup and kind of a balance breaker, but it has the strategical effect that players will be trying to prevent others from grabbing/using the weapon, while preferably getting it themselves.

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XCOPY said:

well yeah, in DM the weapon number represents the effectiveness of a weapon to give you frags.

I suppose that you consider the SSG to be like "double slot 3", therefore the weapon's efficiency number is 2*3 = 6, up to par with the plasmagun. I would agree with this. :P

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They could have put the sub machine gun that DoomGuy was holding on the front cover of DOOM. But you have the heavy machine gun, which is better xD

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The pistol in my opinion is a worthless weapon in Doom DM. When I make DM maps, I always have player starts adjacent to more powerful weapons (usually shotguns, super shotguns, and chainguns).

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Melee Weapons: Do not want.

Pistol: Useless in any engagement where your enemy is packing anything other than his fist or a chainsaw, even then he might still kill you.

Shotgun: I love this gun, I really do. In Ultimate Doom this is the weapon I rush for (This or the Plasma/BFG) because if you can wield it wisely and accurately you are confirmed a kill.

Super Shotgun: The holy grail of Doom DM. A mach without an SSG is usually much longer due to the raw killing power of the SSG. In Doom 2 DM, this weapon is a necessity to get as everybody else will undoubtedly have one.

Chaingun: When you are out of shotgun ammo, it is best to just fire at the enemy with this until they stop moving. I don't like it that much.

Rocket launcher: This thing is a liability for me, it gets me some kills but also gets me killed. I honestly avoid using this.

Plasma Rifle: My favorite DM weapon, nothing short of excellent.

BFG9000: When somebody gets this then it is all over, you will die if you are not fast enough and even then that probably won't do you any good.

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Pistol is sometimes very useless in DMs ... But fists are more useful,i remember i played a map where you spawn with no weapon (Only your fists) and you're given a Berserk :o ...

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Fists and chainsaw have little use in death match. There were times where I could pin bots into a corner or a dead end and finish him with no chance of escape, but I suspect human players would be too smart for that. I bet a 1024 sized deathmatch map might make berserk and chainsaw pretty strong.

chaingun is useless in death match. All youre doing is chewing the frags for other players to eat. Its valuable for duels to wear out your opponent before you finish him with a shotgun or something. It can also be used to weaken enemy intruders in ctf. But for ffa its not instantaneous enough to rope in some points.

rocket launcher needs practice. Running towards your opponent while firing you can create an undodgable wall of rockets. If you can't do that, firing in unpredictable patterns can fake out your opponent for some sweet kills. It has the nice instant kill feature but the projectiles speed still makes it vulnerable to an ssg wielding enemy. Rockets make great surpressing fire in ctf, and also allows for my favorite use, carrying the enemies flag and firing backwards at all the guys chasing you.

dew once described the plasma gun as "a long range chainsaw with quad damage" which is pretty accurate. Its super lethal if you can pop around a corner or direct players into walls and corners where they can't get away. But in large open ended areas, its useless.

BFG is a kill half the people in the room weapon, and strategic instant kill from any distance if you know how it works.

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The pistol is a decent starting weapon if you manage to spot an injured player or two other players combatting each other. The Pistol can be used to pick them off or at least hurt them. I feel that it's basically the "Soften Em Up" gun, and then you can retreat and find a better weapon and come back a bit more powerful. Granted, of course, they don't replenish their health or armor in the mean time.

The Melee weapons are wholly useless. I can see the berserk punch useful in an ambush scenario, but the main fist is useless crap. The chainsaw is also a poor ambush weapon, as you can hear it before you reach the guy wielding it, and can expect him around the next corner.

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Pistol, fist and chainsaw are all pretty much crap. The fist can get some frags with a berserk, but even then its pretty rare.

SG and CG are both great at long range, but relatively few commonly played maps give you the space to use them to their fullest. If I had to pick one, itd be the SG because of the effective "burst then cover" technique.

SSG is the best commonly placed DM gun. Effective up to like 6 yards, and super high ammo capacity. Just gotta keep that long reload in mind.

Rockets are fun and effective to shoot into crowds, but in a duel, you need to really vary up your firing pattern, while keeping a safe distance - often a very difficult feat.

Plasma, for me at least, is a "spray n pray" gun. It's really good in close range, but the balls (huhuh) are easy to avoid with a bit of space.

The BFG is my favorite. It requires you to do a bit of study/trial and error to master, when used against skilled opponents. Knowledge of how the cone works is key to avoiding it. A lot of people hate the BFG in DM just because they refuse to take the time and learn how it works - That said, if a BFG is poorly placed in a map, or the map itself does not have strategic cover points, it can get pretty lame. (Insert joke about ZDaemon exp whoring here)

Another thing I like about the BFG is that it gives me a fighting chance, considering my extreme ping. When everyone else has a ping of 100 and yours is 350, it's nice having that BFG knowledge to even the odds.

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And what about weapon variety in DM maps, are you guys fine with maps that lack one or more guns to create different weapon combinations or do you think everything at least from shotgun to plasmagun should be there?

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I have made the mistake of cramming every gun into many of my past releases. I love it when 2 or 3 gun types aren't present, forcing players to change up their strategy and think differently.

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Doom 2 FFA is a lot about SSG. But you need be good with cg and sg too mainly on maps where you dont respawn with ssg. CG and SG are pretty effective guns with really good aim, you kill opononent really fast but needs a lot practice. :o Those weapons only sux on armored opononets. I prefet SG over CG.
I like eonweapons wad made by Ru5tk1ng nowadays. It make DM more fun. You can test it on zandronum only. There are faster rockets, faster weapon switch, more accurate and deadly sg and etc etc, even Lighting gun from Quake is in. :D

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