NOVA II - Ver. 1.2 on /idgames (now with no missing keycards!)

[joe-ilya]

Or maybe call MAP30 "nova"?

[AD_79]

joe-ilya said:

Or maybe call MAP30 "nova"?

No.

Just a heads up, I'm considering replacing MAP06 with a better map, if I have the time to do so.

[NuclearPotato]

Fuck it, I've been nitpicking this for over a week now, time to turn it in for feedback, accepted to NOVA II or not. You might remember that I decided to take one more try at making a map for this, using Getsu Fune's "hellromp" map as a base. Well, here it is, now finished and titled "Summoning Up Some Serious Cacodemons." I didn't really make many changes to what was already there; I picked it up because I thought the map looked cool and didn't want to see it go to waste. I just added the remaining areas and populated the map. Mostly, this ended up as an exercise in monster placement for me.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bX8V5Yr798Tk51ejU4d29vM0E/view?usp=sharing

[dobu gabu maru]

Here's Rawne's incomplete NOVA 2 map

[mouldy]

NuclearPotato said:

Well, here it is, now finished and titled "Summoning Up Some Serious Cacodemons."

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bX8V5Yr798Tk51ejU4d29vM0E/view?usp=sharing

This is virtually unplayable due to the lack of ammo and health. Did you playtest this?

[NuclearPotato]

mouldy said:

This is virtually unplayable due to the lack of ammo and health. Did you playtest this?

Yes, but then, I tend to run past everything as fast as I can. Doesn't help that I'm a very poor player in general (which is why I posted it, so people who are actually good at the game can tell me what I need to fix). Where would you say I need to place pickups the most? Was there any particular encounter that made you go, "Well fuck this?"

[NuMetalManiak]

oh my oh my...

you know, when I contributed the layout, I was expecting a lot more than this. Aside from the two door in the northern part of the map which I had inexplicably left alone, the layout is practically unchanged. I had wanted this map to be some type of adventurous outing, in a very similar style to Whispers of Satan which was the main inspiration. Adventurous doesn't really cater to "running from everything" and that's what the beginning of my map has turned into. You get a chaingun and a plasma at the beginning, but have to fight PEs and tomatoes and you don't have enough to fight them all, even on ITYTD. Honestly the SSG should be where the chaingun was, and the cacos and PEs replaced with lost souls (so I don't have to worry about them too much).

first interior section isn't actually too bad although the layout was unchanged. my big complaint is that the SSG is in only one of the four paths. if you're gonna give a weapon, try putting it at the entrance of the interior section.

I was really hoping that a lot could be done for my underground lava section in the northern part of the map, with the green/tan walkways. you know those three stone pillars that are jutting near the SW corner of that area? a powerup or a weapon could be very useful for the top pillar. I see a berserk pack in the middle and that could be used, but then again I really don't think the berserk is useful for this area anyways. the area on the right with the BFG seems alright. Okay, the new rooms. The one on the west side has some sort of puzzle, as well as a cyber shootout, and it's cramped. running back from getting the red key, I see some very weird design choices in the steps. the room leading to the exit was similar in style to Doom II's MAP17 ending room but with harder combat. and why is the rocket launcher there so late? that gun should be a whole lot earlier (probably right at the entrance to the interior area as I mentioned.)

hate to say it NP but I'm very disappointed in this. especially concerning the gameplay which as mouldy says is unplayable. you probably should have matched my original aim for the map to be some sort of adventurous (albeit linear) affair with the standard hell type of combat. I've also noticed that there are zero hitscanners in this entire map, and sometimes they can be ammo pools in the best of needs. a few hitscanners + imps on ground level isn't always a bad thing, and you need the ammo just to get through. so I suggest adding a few, and also giving more supplies to the player, maybe move a few weapons and powerups to more convenient locations (definitely get the rocket launcher to an earlier place). I'd still like to see it turn into a rather cool adventure map, regardless of whether or not this map is conceived into NOVA II.

[mouldy]

NuclearPotato said:

Was there any particular encounter that made you go, "Well fuck this?"

When you don't have enough ammo to deal with anything and just have to keep running, then the whole map is just one encounter. I think by the time the player reaches the building and gets through the door, the ammo shortage should end there and the fighting should begin.

[dobu gabu maru]

So the first time I played KevinHEZ's "Research and Development" (MAP19), the thing that stuck out to me the most was that boxy area towards the end that had like seven Archviles strewn throughout—it was unbalanced, but an interesting concept nonetheless... and now here is the map reborn, with three times as many AVs.

Download Cry of the Archvile (I thought a name change was appropriate). UV only so far. Lemme know if I succeeded in my design or not. The final battle is likely to kill you the first time you encounter it, but I had to make it initially relentless in order to ensure you couldn't just camp that room.

[Velvetic]

Oh man, my worst fear came true, i contributed on a map that is full of arch-viles (if i die by a heart attack while playing, would that count as suicide?).

All that aside, the map got a major overhaul in the gameplay area which made it more insane and brutal (and i liked it xD), thanks dobu for the awesome work you put into the map.

[cannonball]

Well research and development has become research and incineration :P
Nice job Dobu.
Pr-boom really doesn't like major's map with lots of bleeding lines etc. I think the map is solid enough though with some relative textural and detail overhaul.

[dobu gabu maru]

Glad there's no screams of frustration yet :P And thanks Kevin for making that beautiful map, it was a lot of fun learning all the details by hand.

Got to play MajorRawne's and NuclearPotato's maps before heading off to bed.

Rawne: There's some good ideas sprinkled in here, but it feels like you're trying to do a lot with only a little space. For instance the start has some really malicious pressure and tight spacing, but there's really no way to deal with it other than taking it piece by piece, as running through the complex only stirs up more and more trouble with no way to duck most of it. Therefore it requires a lot of demanding dodging early on, and then the pressure completely dissipates after you get the SSG. The awkwardly tight CEMENT hallway at the top right of the map (past the arachs that warp in) is also a big buzzkill, as the number of revs and specters in that area ensure that you can only go about it one way (retreating once the trap is sprung and rocketing away). And flooding the central area with imps post-RL isn't nearly as treacherous as the two revs you face right at the start.

IMO this is likely to be a map that needs a second person fiddling around with it. I think I've gotten a pretty good sense on your mapping style by now Major, and it's clear you have a greater knack for visuals than gameplay. There's nothing wrong with being stronger in one area than another, but when trying to tackle some aspects—like making a map "difficult"—your foibles tend to get accentuated. Keep working on the map, but be aware that it'll likely require a lot of tweaking. Three more things:

1) ALWAYS be cognizant of what ammo you're handing the the player and where. In the tight CEMENT hallway I complained about, you place a PG there with some cell, but getting to it means that you'll be flooded by the specters—why not hand it to the player at the switch? And furthermore, you also hand the player rockets in the rev cubby once the battle is over—what if I only had the SSG at that point in the map? How does more rockets help me restock the ~40 shells I may have wasted?

2) Don't use enemies rising out of the ground unless it's absolutely necessary. Not only does it look pretty cheesy but it's just rude most of the time. The HK that does it on the map has no reason to do it; if you want it to be surprising have him warp in, not slide up in front of my face and slug me.

3) Try to keep certain texturing consistent. You have SILVER/SHAWN lifts for most of the map, but sometimes you also use it as a wall texture. In the crate area, the walls are silver but there's one portion of the it that is actually a timed lift—indicate it as such for the player. And near the exit door, the platform down in the nukage is activatable, but nothing tells me that it is as the player since it's textured the exact same as the walls around it. This serves only to vex the player, and doubly so as they take damage looking for a way out.

Potato: Getsu already hit the nail on the head for the most part on this. While attempting to experiment around with monster composition is good, I think you need a different/more nonlinear layout to get the most out of it. Doing linear encounters can be very make-or-break for a map, and I don't think you have the chops to do a difficult hell-oriented map quite yet. Again, studying the design of other fun mapsets (Scythe, Alien Vendetta, BtSX) is the best way to understand how a good map is woven together.

[tourniquet]

dobu gabu maru said:

Download Cry of the Archvile (I thought a name change was appropriate).

Ha, now thats what i call an overhaul. The original map was kinda underwhelming especially once you gained some proper weaponry, this one kicks ass up till the end, good job.
Perhaps an earlier available SSG on lower skill's might be a good thing.

[dobu gabu maru]

Added difficulties to Cry of the Archvile and Broken Outpost (MAP05)... they should both be 100% done now: Download here.

The next bit is somewhat of a conundrum... I was trying to fix SteveD's complaints about Surreptitious Ichor earlier in the thread, but there really is no way to make the second area difficult without just gating the player off. So I implemented a gate-system and on one hand it makes the fights way more fierce, but since you lose a lot of that freedom it definitely becomes more unforgiving if you slip up. I put the start point in the second area in case anyone wants to test it out (ammo is tight but it should be fine). Is this the right move, or should I just keep the old version?

[tourniquet]

Hm more than a half year has passed since i played "Surreptitious Ichor" the last time, think i'll need to replay the original version first before i can judge if those changes are reasonable, i wanted to replay it anyways since a while so i'll take this as a chancve and give both versions a try once i have a bit more time to deal with that beast.

[tourniquet]

Ok, replayed both old and new version of "Surreptitious Ichor", despite the fact that i approve lock-ins in certain situations i've kinda mixed feelings about that specific case.
Generally it's surely the easiest solution to prevent the player from dropping back down and getting away with some easy kills, i guess it might even work for the northern platform. However on the southern platform it constricts space a bit too much for my taste, those 2 cyb's pressure a lot and there's also not much room to bypass the nobles on the narrow walkway.

Résumé: I'd say keep it for the northern one, remove it on the southern platform.

Edit: Also spotted HOM's on both sides of the lift that operates as entrance for the northern barrier.

[joe-ilya]

MAP04 has a huge bleeding sector :

[MajorRawne]

Thanks for the feedback on my map Dobu. You've put my problem perfectly into words: I am way more interested in creating an environment than I am in the actual gameplay. I seem to think if the map is good enough the play will spring from it, and sometimes it might, but it's kind of like drawing speech bubbles before writing the speech; there's no forward planning and no room for manoeuvre.

I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about the gameplay though. It sounds like you like and dislike the initial section, that it's too hard but not hard enough. The map is unfinished so the Imp teleport attack could be considerably beefed up but I'm not sure if you're telling me to upgrade its difficulty or make it weaker.

[mouldy]

dobu gabu maru said:

Download Cry of the Archvile (I thought a name change was appropriate). UV only so far. Lemme know if I succeeded in my design or not. The final battle is likely to kill you the first time you encounter it, but I had to make it initially relentless in order to ensure you couldn't just camp that room.

Thats a great map. The archviles really make it, there is enough cover to make them fairly easy to deal with which allows the map to be played at a relatively fast pace without being a total push-over. The final fight did kill me the first time, but that was totally my own fault, if you are on the ball then you have every chance I think. Really nice looking map as well.

[joe-ilya]

https://www.mediafire.com/?hx489p3n42xfn71
The map's name is now "Dry well"

[AD_79]

Looks like an improvement visually (I like ROCK1-3 :P ), I haven't played it but I'll take a look later.

From the screenshot, that BRICK11 thing over there should be BIGBRIK or METAL or something to fit in properly.

[joe-ilya]

Will FIREMAG fit? I want it to be a red texture.

[dobu gabu maru]

tourniquet said:

stuff

Thanks for running through it tourny—I'll remove the southern barrier and I guess I'll see what feedback the map gets in the beta phase. Any thoughts on keeping the cavern section or not? Both Steve and Ribbiks dislike it and the map is already long as is, though I initially included it because I thought a change of pace was necessary...

MajorRawne said:

I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about the gameplay though.

I suppose I did write a bit ambiguously. I personally like difficult pistol starts so I think you have an interesting idea going here, the problem is that the level doesn't seem to support that type of brutal play. My maps always have rough beginnings but I try to include multiple ways of surviving the initial onslaught, while in your map the player can do nothing other than trigger the traps one at a time (as running forward makes the problem worse). It's fine for a map to be "difficult" but (as strange as it sounds) it doesn't feel like your map is the right kind of "difficult". If you're aiming for a latter E3 slot the rest of the map needs to try and match the opening's pace, but if you want it to be a more mellow E3 map then the start definitely needs to get toned down.

EDIT: Played Dry Well. Good work joe—you actually did make the map better! Couple things though: replace one of the shotgun shell boxes in the AV area with a box of ammo. Add a medkit and stimpack to the platform you use to jump to the exit (the one with the rev on it). I'd remove the red firestick in the area with the manc as it blocks the shots from the arach in Zdoom. Also I still don't like the specter trap as it's too sudden and means you always get damaged—I think changing it to just a "floor lower to lowest floor" may not be as dangerous but wouldn't feel as cheap. Lastly, replace two of the zombiemen that come out of the YK trap with a rev and chaingunner (or sergeant). Other than that, I think this is a good way to show how you've improved over your NOVA 1 submissions.

Also I think the BRICK11 use is fine—it's distinctively a "joe-ilya" thing to do, and doesn't clash with the map all that much (FIREMAG and its sister textures would look pretty out of place)

[tourniquet]

dobu gabu maru said:

Any thoughts on keeping the cavern

Well i've kind of a neutral opinion about the cavern, there's really not much going on inside but i think it still works well as some kind of interlude or breather between the tense start and the upcoming hazards + i actually like the room with 2 viles that leads to the YSK so i say keep it.

Alltogether i really enjoyed my playthrough, almost forgot how fantastic that map plays, IMO there's nothing else that'd require changes.

[MajorRawne]

Dobu, I'm hoping to keep the player consistently under pressure, remember this map isn't finished. I think I'd better just get as much of the map done as possible, as there's not enough time to re-learn Doom mapping before the deadline, if the map is OK for inclusion (with or without re-working by someone more skilled) it's all well and good, if not, I guess it just wasn't meant to be!

EDIT: Running through the map is SUPPOSED to get you into trouble, I grew up playing Doom maps where running headlong got you killed every time, I was trying to aim for that and I actually positioned certain monsters to try to slow you down.

[joe-ilya]

https://www.mediafire.com/?hx489p3n42xfn71
Added more detail, complexity and followed dobu's advice.

[MajorRawne]

I'm considering a surrender of my Nova 2 map so that someone else can finish it. I was hoping that by now, I'd have resolved various real life things that would allow me to focus on my Doom mapping, but it's going to be a while before I can devote the time and concentration required to finishing a Doom map.

I know this is a bit late in the day but from what I've heard, someone could probably do in two days what would take me a month.

I'll understand if you want to replace it with something else but it would be a shame, as I think it's the basis of a decent map.

[dobu gabu maru]

MajorRawne said:

I'll understand if you want to replace it with something else but it would be a shame, as I think it's the basis of a decent map.

Understood Major; unfortunate that you didn't have more free time. Keep in mind though that we've had several half-finished maps handed to the project, and other than NuclearPotato, people have a propensity to work on their own creations than continue off of another's work.

So with that said, anyone want to work on shaping it up? Otherwise I guess we could ask Demonologist to contribute a map since he seemed interested...

[tourniquet]

dobu gabu maru said:

people have a propensity to work on their own creations than continue off of another's work.

Yeah that's a point and tbh personally i wasn't really a fan of Rawne's map so i vote for Demonologist even if this probably means that E3 get's another super hard map but i like his stuff and he'll definitly come along with something fancy.

[dobu gabu maru]

tourniquet said:

E3 get's another super hard map

Yeah that was another point I was iffy on—Vindaloo, Surreptitious and anamia are all encounter-based maps (semi-slaughter), and sticking a Demonologist map in there might feel like too much. I specifically tried to space those three maps out so the player wouldn't get tired when they stumble upon the next one, but with Demonologist in there we'd have to pair two up somewhere. With that said, I still think his stuff is unique enough that I wouldn't want to bar him from contributing... just worried about map flow I suppose.