Cyberdemon Fights

[40oz]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of cyberdemon fights, and I think the average casual doomer might agree with me unless its an opportunity for mass infighting or if its in a large arena with lots of rockets or cells making a climactic ending or milestone to a map or mapset.

my question is more about the appeal of using cyberdemons almost like standard monsters in some cases. In almost every death destiny map or timeofdeath map, the cyberdemon makes a presence somewhere between one and 30 times, often they aren't used in the traditional "final battle" manner or rarely with some sort of gimmick like infighting with a spidey mastermind or crushing or telefragging tied to it other than two shotting it with a bfg. Often times used in close quarters, large numbers, or enclosed in monster block lines in front of a key or vital switch or door.

i like slaughter maps especially considering their difficulty and the carnage you get to reap, but the instakill rockets the cyberdemon uses plus its huge amount of HP makes cyberdemon fights a long endurance round that absorbs a lot of resources. Its high risk for very little reward. Not to mention the hell baron is usually criticized for being a slow moving damage sponge. I'd argue that the cyberdemon, with its speed, 3 shot burst fire and splash damage missiles considered, its still not far from being a bigger fatter hell baron.

What do you think of about their usage as a commonplace monster? Do they have a place in maps if there isn't a shortcut to destroying them or if they aren't used intentionally as a boss?

[vdgg]

There are plenty of wads being released with your imps, sergeants and pinkies most of the time, so there's something for everyone. The "instant kill" feature, I get what you mean, it can be nasty, but for example in Skepland MAP01 this is exactly what makes a good cyber placement IMO.

[Jaxxoon R]

Yeah not too big a fan on Cyberdemon fights. I usually just orbit around them, dive in, and then blast them with the SSG over and over again. Maybe if there was a version with less health or something. I guess that's what UDMF is for.

[dew]

Cybs aren't really a boss monster ever since Doom2. You may sell them as one, but you need to set up the weapon progression and resources for it. As for your final question: I'm not a big slaughter fan, but I love Scythe 2 map30, so hell yeah.

[Memfis]

Yes, I dislike most cyberdemon fights. With BFG they're too scary because I can mess up the 2-shot technique and die, especially if the cyber is placed awkwardly (AV20!). Without BFG they're too tedious and still scary: it's a long fight where you know that one little slip-up will probably kill you, I find that more unpleasant than thrilling. Additionally, if a cyber is used in a "non-boss-like" situation, it feels kind of unnatural.

I really like how they can "rule" an area though. For example, a cyberdemon walking around the city: at the start you don't have enough weaponry to fight him, so you have to keep running and be very careful when you go from one building to another. It's a very good dynamic. Or just a cyber on a pillar from where he observes most of the playing field, again forcing you to constantly move.

So I guess I like the way cyberdemons can affect the gameplay, I just don't like the process of killing them by myself (a telefrag\crusher is preferable to me).

[Mithran Denizen]

The cyberdemon's asymmetrical appearance has always given me the impression that it's a unique assembly of flesh and metal; not merely one among countless similar demons, but an identifiable individual. E3M9 made me think, "Gah, they rebuilt him! He's back!", after previously taking him out in E2M8. Seeing cyberdemons in hordes tends to lower my overall immersion for this reason.

That said, plenty of wads provide interesting combat that more than makes up for whatever the immersion sacrifice might be. The cyber adds immensely valuable variety to gameplay. It's one of the few singular foes that warrants BFG-level weaponry, one of the only threats that makes you take splash damage into consideration, etc. I'm not a huge fan of fighting cyberdemons as unceremoniously as if they were hell knights, but I love clever/novel/effective/sparing usage.

Note that seeing a lone cyberdemon often (i.e. up to once per map) doesn't bug my immersion in the slightest; I kind of like the thought that he's being continually rebuilt and/or resurrected by the forces of hell to harass doomguy through eternity. Not so much as a boss, more like a recurring nemesis.

[TimeOfDeath]

Cybers are awesome and dangerous and can be killed within seconds by two-shotting, so they work well as normal monsters. btw, nostril.wad has 456 of them. :)

[tourniquet]

^ this + i also enjoy to tackle them with a SSG even if it takes more time.

[Ribbiks]

cybs are amazing, no other monster can compete with their potential to instantly punish the player for sucking. placed in tight quarters they're extremely daunting, placed in areas with tight munitions you can make tradeoffs between dangerous infighting or clearing some personal space. perched on overlooks they provide constant pressure and anxiety (see the aforementioned skepland01). they excel at area denial, sometimes better than AVs. they can be killed extremely efficiently and quickly with proper 2-shotting, livin fast and dyin young. basically they're awesome all around when not used retardedly. the idea of 'boss' monsters realllllly doesn't work in doom imo, better to leave all grandiose notions of monster hierarchy at the door. use them well, use them liberally :D

[MFG38]

Eh, I don't think Cyberdemons are that bad, especially compared to Spider Masterminds. Granted, Cyberdemons can kill you instantly with one rocket, but Spider Masterminds are frickin' rapid fire hitscanners!

[Maes]

I love Cyberdemon fights (and not only when I can fist or BFG their butts). My preferred way of fighting them actually involves finding a spot where I can hit it without retaliation (e.g. atop a ledge which is at its head's height) and using hitscan weapons (mostly CG and SG) to tap its health. Also long-distance sniping with CG tapping and CG.

[TwinBeast]

They're bosses and regular enemies. If I can find a spot where it has no chance to damage me, I might also kill it from there. Depends on the level.

Don't really care about 2 shotting them with bfg. Usually my favorite is to use the plasma rifle in a way that I just hold the trigger down until it's dead, trying to get all plasma balls hit it. If there are some stupid pillars in the way, I have to release the trigger...

[BaronOfStuff]

Nothing wrong with the occasional Cyberdemon encounter throughout a WAD. It's all about placement and balance (as usual), along with avoiding saturation use to the point of tediousness. Slapping a whole load in a small area to make it 'difficult' isn't clever or enjoyable IMO. It's lazy.

As for 2-shotting them with the BFG, nobody has any room to whine about this being dangerous in a conventional battle. It's purely a risk/reward scenario. Kill it fast for less ammo with greater risk to your own life, or play it safe at a distance where you know you can dodge but will have to use more supplies. If it kills you in the former scenario, it's your own fault and goes with taking said risk.

[Maes]

BaronOfStuff said:

Kill it fast for less ammo with greater risk to your own life, or play it safe at a distance where you know you can dodge but will have to use more supplies.

Oh no you don't, mister. In accordance with the Finnish Frugality Formula (FFF) used in all Jodwin maps, you can only kill the Cyberdemon using careful and timed chaingun taps, without missing ANY shots, and using the pistol to deliver the last few hits, because we wouldn't like to waste TWO bullets when ONE would have sufficed, amirite?

[BaronOfStuff]

The FFF is for bean counters and people who don't like having the choice to approach things from various angles then!

[Maes]

No then according to the FFF ur a noob who wastes his shots on walls lol

[BaronOfStuff]

omg who r u callin noob fite me irl

[NuMetalManiak]

I like killing them more with the plasma gun then the BFG. it's just the steady stream of plasma keeps them at bay while the BFG for me is fluky. this is strategy I employ in an open field scenario. I generally don't have a strategy for fighting them in more cramped areas.

[Maes]

Getsu Fune said:

I like killing them more with the plasma gun then the BFG

The problem with the PL IMO is that it is easily interrupted by pillars, ledges, etc. plus it blocks your view (depending on your relative elevation) and you are forced to rely on instinctive timing to avoid possible rocket volleys coming your way. With weaker monsters this is also a concern, but it's one thing "eating" a Baron fireball and another one riding a rocket.

[40oz]

I agree and have similar feelings with many people here who spoke against cyberdemons. I do enjoy them in moderation, particularly in a one, maybe two per map setting. Scythe 2 and Speed of Doom use them pretty well that way. In that context I'm not even bothered by them with or without the BFG. I too, like them as a distant sniper, or in a cat n mouse style maze situation, or in an open arena with lots of rockets, shells or cells.

I'm curious to hear more details from players who do enjoy fighting them. I've never played skepland before. I'll be back after I've tried it. Ribbiks made some good points but are mostly viewed from a level designers perspective. In my experience playing maps that use them too liberally, it feels almost like work, almost akin to waiting on one of those really slow moving elevators, like the yellow key room in MAP13: Downtown. Personally, I take issue with most maps that take me over 20 minutes to complete, but I can make exceptions for rocketlauncher heavy maps with tons of imps and revenants :)

I don't mean to sound too dismissive, I really am trying to be open to suggestion. If I could hear more thrilling words or stories about the experience of fighting cyberdemons I might be inclined to think differently about them. Perhaps practicing my two-shotting game is in order too, as I usually don't go for it unless I can distract them with infighting.

[Inkie]

At least it isn't fat and ugly, like the mastermind. Seriously, how am I supposed to use something that comically big?

[scifista42]

I generally don't like slaughtermaps very much. However, for me, Cyberdemons can be fun to fight with the SSG (there must be appropriate space and obstacles around), or the BFG (even small groups of them!), or the SSG in combination with PG (but not really PG alone or RL alone). I agree with Memfis's post about various aspects how the Cyberdemons affect playability. I don't find it bad to use them in maps in varied numbers for various purposes. Their placement mustn't feel entirely unfair or cheap, which is for example when they're too far in distance, or oppositely, if they're forcibly too close to the player. Context also matters: Depending on the kind of the map(set), I can bear several Cybers per level, or (in classic styled maps) I'd prefer them to be rare, or (specially in D1) just one as The Boss might be the optimum.

[drifter20k]

After playing DOOM for two decades, I have changed my strategy of battling Cyberdemons. I used to primarily use rockets and cells and sloppy BFG shots. Now I use point blank SSG blasts and try to 2 shot them with the BFG whenever possible if it is close quarts combat. I tend to favor using the SSG more than anything on the Cyberdemon. For long range work or if the Cyberdemon is up on a ledge or below me, I use the pump shotgun or single tap the hell out of the chaingun.

I still think of the Cyberdemon as the ultimate boss even if there are more than one on a map. His alert sound still fills me with dread every time I hear it and I feel the urgent need to kill it any way possible. Either destroying swiftly and efficiently with 2 shot BFG or chipping away at it with chaingun or pump shotgun, it is always a good fight. I save my rockets for hordes or Archviles, rarely use rockets on Cyberdemons.

Infighting is another fun dynamic in itself. Letting the Cyberdemon clear hordes for you and or the horde kill off the Cyberdemon. This game never gets old.

[Krazov]

I liked the usage of Cyberdemon “Thy Flesh Turned Into a Draft Excluder’s” map 2. Kinda rough in the beginning when you have to avoid him at all cost, while killing other monsters. And then he becomes an asset for a while taking down some bad guys. Yeah.

[Pirx]

i like fighting them when i have the appropriate weapons: bfg (2-shot) or ssg (shells are everywhere). or infighting. a cyber going berserk on a bunch of smaller critters is always fun. but without this, i hate having to waste a truckload of ammo on them.

[scalliano]

I don't take issue with cyberdemon encounters at all - granted, the traditional setups are way too easy these days, even without two-shotting (which I never do anyway), but I do enjoy seeing them used inventively. The "Cat And Mouse" map from Doom 64 was the first time I'd ever seen one being used in a (relatively) enclosed space, and it was a very tense fight the first few times I got smeared across the wall.

[Alfonzo]

Cybers that pressure you as you navigate a precarious layout, like in MAP24: Final Frontier of Plutonia, are among my favourite uses of the monster. For scare factor that also translates into some seriously nerve-wracking gameplay, though, you can't beat MM's Map28: City of the Unavenged. It's as though Jens Nielsen accidentally swapped out a couple of nameless corridor imps by mistake, inavertedly making one of the most startling yet effective uses of a monster that you're more used to seeing roaming around in large, open areas.

[AD_79]

Heh, MM MAP28's Cybie usage is excellent. For example:

[General Rainbow Bacon]

^^ Yeah, that cyber almost made me shit my pants.

[Magnusblitz]

40oz said:

Not to mention the hell baron is usually criticized for being a slow moving damage sponge. I'd argue that the cyberdemon, with its speed, 3 shot burst fire and splash damage missiles considered, its still not far from being a bigger fatter hell baron.

The difference is that the Baron of Hell's damage threat is FAR outweighed by its health. Unless it gets up close, it's very easy to dodge its attacks, and it has a fairly slow movement speed. The cyberdemon moves twice as fast, the rockets move faster than the baron fireballs, and there's three projectiles in each warm-up to dodge, as well as the splash damage. A baron can be ignored, a Cyberdemon can't.

I also enjoy the game of trying for the 2-shot, though it's not always viable depending on the encounter setup.

Of course, 4000 HP is 4000 HP, and if they aren't placed in a threatening setup, or used to infight, it can be a bit of a bore to chew through. Don't remember which map it was, but there was one that had four Cyberdemons in cages they couldn't leave with doors, and the strategy was just to open door, blast with the SSG, then dodge back around the corner. Repeat about 25-30 times per Cyberdemon. Soooo boring.