Someone has experience editing risen3d models in blender?

[davi2686]

How can i use blender to editing models and animations in risen3d?

I know the risen3d website indicate some 3d tools but none of then give me the power of blender editing tools

thanks

[Enjay]

Existing models will either be in the Quake 2 MD2 format or the Doomsday DMD format. So, you'll need to do whatever is needed to import a MD2 into/out of Blender. Import/export plugins should exist for MD2 models because it's a common enough format.

If you want to edit one of the DMD files, you'll need to convert it to a MD2 first and this can be done using a program called md2tool which I *think* you can get from the Doomsday web site.

[Kappes Buur]

Import/Export scripts for one Blender version will not always work for another Blender version.
You might want to read through these threads for more info:

http://forum.drdteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6078
http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32392&p=804675
http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=46953&p=790827
http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=35790&p=707314

[DaniJ]

Enjay said:

If you want to edit one of the DMD files, you'll need to convert it to a MD2 first and this can be done using a program called md2tool which I *think* you can get from the Doomsday web site.

Nowadays md2tool is included in the Doomsday installation package. When running the installer ensure that "Command-Line Tools (for data files)" will be installed and then look for md2tool.exe in your /Doomsday/bin folder.

[Coraline]

What's the difference between MD2 and DMD?

[davi2686]

Kappes Buur said:

Import/Export scripts for one Blender version will not always work for another Blender version.
You might want to read through these threads for more info:

Thanks man, but i have a doubt... the first link you post is for md3 blender script, in risen3d folders i have md2 files, risen3d also works with md3?

thanks

[DaniJ]

Chu said:

What's the difference between MD2 and DMD?

DMD adds level-of-detail (LOD) information and has more accurate normals for better vertex lighting.

davi2686 said:

risen3d also works with md3?

AFAIK the only existing DOOM port with limited support for MD3 is GZDoom.

You'd need export to MD3/3DS/OBJ/whatever and then convert to MD2 from there. (You can use md2tool on the MD2 to convert to DMD, generating the LOD and normal data in the process).

[Kappes Buur]

davi2686 said:

Thanks man, but i have a doubt... the first link you post is for md3 blender script, in risen3d folders i have md2 files, risen3d also works with md3?
thanks

I guess there is no way around it, that models sometimes need to be converted from one type to another.
Besides the already mentioned md2tool, you probably should also take a look at these two tools:

Misfit3D
NOESIS

They may come in handy.

[Enjay]

If you are downloading Misfit, I suggest downloading the 1.3.8 development version rather than the 1.2.4 stable version. Why? Because 1.2.4 doesn't support MD3 but 1.3.8 does. I haven't had any stability problems with 1.3.8.

Or you could also try Misfit Cubed
http://sourceforge.net/projects/misfitcubed/

I think it's basically 1.3.8 with a few fixes and a couple of new features. For my needs, I haven't really noticed much difference between "cubed" and 1.3.8.

It's a shame that more ports don't support MD3. They are very similar to work with (i.e. edit) to MD2 models but they are far more precise in the way they store data. MD2 models are famous for their "wobbly vertices" as vertices unrelated to the animations move from one place to another between animation frames. Also, the lack of precision can mean if you make a nice, delicate object (e.g. I once made a space ship with lots of thin points and antennae) these will probably move and make the model look like it was carved from a piece of rough wood by a drunk with a blunt pen knife when you save it in MD2 format.

[DaniJ]

Well, with regard to MD3 support, at least as far as Doomsday is concerned, is that its a "deadend" format. Its vertex animated and is severely lacking when compared to more modern model formats and is not a significant upgrade over MD2.

A full MD3 implementation, with support for animation groups, is something which requires an entirely new method of animation. AFAIK the only feature of MD3 that the current crop of sourceports support is the more precise storage of vertices, etc.

Certainly, a more precise format is a step forward, although it is such a small step that it hardly seems worth it, from my perspective at least.

Personally, I wouldn't want to list MD3 as supported unless the group based animation mechanism is also present.

What you actually want is an entirely new skeletal model animation system and modern resource formats.

[Coraline]

DaniJ said:

AFAIK the only existing DOOM port with limited support for MD3 is GZDoom.

3DGE also supports MD3 models, it has since I took over the port in 2011. Very interesting specs on the DMD format, I'd be interested in integrating it into 3DGE if it's GPL-compatible.

3DGE 2.0 will be getting full MD5 support, and there should be a version out to test it in the coming months.

[DaniJ]

Chu said:

3DGE also supports MD3 models, it has since I took over the port in 2011. Very interesting specs on the DMD format, I'd be interested in integrating it into 3DGE if it's GPL-compatible.

3DGE 2.0 will be getting full MD5 support, and there should be a version out to test it in the coming months.

Good stuff, does 3DGE also support MD3 animation groups?

Doomsday 1.15 is also introducing support for MD5, however the new animation system will follow in a future release.

Its great to hear that more ports are heading down that road. MD2/3 was good in its day but these days, you really want to shift as much of the burden onto the GPU as possible.

The DMD specs, loader implementation, etc.., are indeed GPL, so have at it :)

[davi2686]

as a beginner i think i understand certain things wrong... my original ideia was editing only de models and leave the animation exatactly like they are, but i start thinking that is not so simple, if i understand well, the md2 file carries not only de model but the animation too, right? so if the convert or import/export is not made in the rigth way the animations can be lost and risen3d will bug right? to be honest i dont know the diference between md2 and md3 unless the names :)

so i think if i try convert md2 to obj then editing it in blender and export to obj and outside blender convert again for md2, can i made something like that(even is not obj)?

thanks again dudes

[Coraline]

MD2 bakes animation vertices in the model itself. You can carry this information over to nearly any other format that supports it. This is a far cry from a skeletal-based format, like MD5, which stores the animations in separate files. This theory indicates that you can have overall lower model sizes, and the highest animation accuracy possible, while MD2 has a very low model size (with a lot of frames this can inflate, which is why MD2 is best for static models) but poor animation accuracy. MD2 actually duplicates the model in its keyframes, so the more frames you have, the higher the size.

MD2 does not natively linearly interpolate between vertices like MD3 does. MD3 also supports TAGS in the mesh, which acts like an anchor for other models to attach to. The higher accuracy means a bigger file since the animation is stored in the model, again as separate "frames" like MD2. But using the TAG method, each model can have a different animation so if you use a ton, you can have an overall lower size and it then becomes less CPU intensive rather than rendering one big model (and a large skin size, since MD2 doesn't support mesh groups like MD3).

MD5 eliminates this problem by storing the animation separate, while supporting other features. This ensures that the CPU doesn't do all the processing rendering each "model frame" in a string of animation. Rather, the format can read off a file that attaches to an overall "skeleton". Much more friendly for a GPU than trying to render one large model over and over in different "frames".

[Enjay]

DaniJ said:

Certainly, a more precise format is a step forward, although it is such a small step that it hardly seems worth it, from my perspective at least.

While you make some excellent points (especially about the vertex animation, newer formats being better and so on) the increase in vertex precision is a massive step forward IMO. When I was working with MD2 models, I was constantly battling against the wobbly vertices. For example, I had a model of a machine that was essentially a rectangular box with a rotating cog on the end. In the MD2 format, not only did the cog rotate as I wanted it to, the rectangular box looked as if it was made of flubber as it wobbled around all over the place.

Even with static models, I have lost count of the number of times a previously good looking model was completely ruined when it was exported to MD2 because of the awful vertex precision. (This happened in a number of editing programs so it wasn't the editing tool to blame.) In fact, I'd say that it is almost impossible to get a nice, delicate-looking model to look perfect in the MD2 format (though there are some good ones for both Doomsday and Risen3D). Even though GZDoom does not have full MD3 support, the fact that I can use them as basically MD2 models but with better precision is very, very important to me.

By way of a comparison, consider the engine on this space ship model: it's the same model saved in the MD3 and then the MD2 format.

MD3

Spoiler

MD2

Spoiler

I'm not trying to lobby for you to include MD3 support and I don't particularly expect it to appear (and I know that Graham has no intention to add it to Risen3D either). The cases that you made for not including it and for a newer format instead are, of course, good ones. However, from my perspective (especially when considering the tools that I like to use when modelling) the precision of the MD3 format versus the MD2 format really isn't a small step. In fact, for me it's the entire reason to use the format whenever possible if I am making models for GZDoom.

[Coraline]

Great post enjay. MD3 does indeed have higher precision and keyframe interpolation, which means the world even if multiple meshes are not supported. For static models, MD2 wins simply because that extra information is not needed, so the model size stays conveniently low.

[DaniJ]

Don't forget with MD2 you can always break a model into multiple meshes to ensure that (in your example) only the cog's vertices will move when animated.

[Enjay]

Thanks, that's precisely how I fixed it. :)

I still regard it as a workaround though and it's still an example of a flaw/limitation with MD2 models (and, of course, splitting the model might not always be a suitable solution).

[davi2686]

I think I'm realizing which blender maybe is not the best choice to edit risen3d models, what software do you recomend me to work with md2 and have the same powerfull tools as blender, thanks

[Coraline]

My indie team, who is working on a 3D game for 3DGE, uses Blender for model work - I will ask the guy who's in charge of that. He has a dual setup that consists of Blender and MisfitModel3D.

[Enjay]

Blender is a very powerful, feature-rich editor. It can do so much more than is required by the relative simplicity of MD2 models. If you are familiar with it, or want to learn it, it's a good way to go.

Personally, most of the time I use Misfit (and sometimes Milkshape) because it does most of what I want most of the time. I'm not a highly experienced modeller so I find the relative simplicity of Misfit suits me.

I do occasionally use Blender for some bits and pieces, however, but I only use a tiny subset of its features and, partly because I use it so rarely, I find the interface quite complex and intimidating. I also occasionally use Autodesk 3DS Max but I am even less proficient with that than I am with Blender (although I do find it a bit more approachable).

[andrewj]

Enjay said:

When I was working with MD2 models, I was constantly battling against the wobbly vertices. For example, I had a model of a machine that was essentially a rectangular box with a rotating cog on the end. In the MD2 format, not only did the cog rotate as I wanted it to, the rectangular box looked as if it was made of flubber as it wobbled around all over the place.

That is partially the exporter's fault -- always picking a slightly different scale and origin for each frame. A good MD2 exporter would give you the option to use a fixed scale and origin for all frames of the model, which would help a lot for this particular case.

[Enjay]

andrewj said:

That is partially the exporter's fault -- always picking a slightly different scale and origin for each frame. A good MD2 exporter would give you the option to use a fixed scale and origin for all frames of the model, which would help a lot for this particular case.

The problem is, I have been unable to find an exporter that does it properly and I've even noticed the problem in other peoples models where far more expensive and sophisticated software than mine has been used to make the MD2 files (and you can easily see it in many original game models too).

No matter, MD3 fixes it for my needs anyway.