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JCB

ITD - E1M1

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Would anyone else be so kind to run through my e1m1 real quick and tell me if it feels better?

It's not so much horror now. Can someone try to find the BFG and the chainsaw? Let me know.

Thanks for all the previous feedback! Now it's brighter, has aligned textures (mostly) and should be better overall.

Doom2.wad - GzDoom - Jumping = Yes

*download*

http://www.mediafire.com/download/r8i8n850ce0hec4/jcb_ITD_e1m1.wad

*Revised SS's*







http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x403/jacobhodge/put3_zpsahi0nrvg.png




The Titan UAC facility has pushed away it's hellish fate as long as possible, and it's finally breaking through. You are the sole survivor as you fight your way back to the hangar to get off of this damn planet before it's too late!

( Haven't we heard this before?, E1m1 alpha )

Thanks for all feedback!

Thanks to Scifista I can actually show my screenshots now, thanks man.

*First map - Takes about 5-6 minutes - I would love to see a demo, so I can see how someone else might play this design.. Will help with future projects.

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First off, don't use Mediafire for image sharing: seriously, who wants to wait for pictures to load in this day and age? :P The gameplay seemed alright from the quick playthrough I just had but I have to say, the visuals are rather distracting at the moment and kind of threw me off. 3 points that stood out:

1. I take it you don't know about unpegging? If textures aren't lining up on certain linedefs then unpegging them helps a lot.

2. The map itself is pretty damn dark. At a guess I'd say it's because you rely on Brutal Doom's lighting system for lighting as opposed to sector lighting.

3. It looks like you've put no textures on the sides of the doors: when they go up you see a nice ugly Hall of Mirrors effect on the walls. Put a suitable texture on there(most people use DOORTRAK) and you're good to go. If you do use DOORTRAK, I'd recommend setting the Lower Unpegged option on them.

I know these are mostly decoration nitpicks, but hopefully they help.

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That was playable as far as beginners' maps go. I skipped the Brutal Doom because it's not really my thing, but I'm still interested in how your level looks and plays on its own merits.

I liked being able to see into different parts of the map via windows, across pits, etc. Gameplay is mostly flat and predictable, though. The rooms are very orthogonal, heightless and kind of dull. It'd be more fun if there were more rooms like that one with the terribly misaligned crate texture, or where the arachnotron is separated from you by a pit. Both of those rooms give you a sense that you're in a real 3D space, vs a Wolfenstein-style corridor.

Moving through the level is actually kind of annoying, given that the doors you need to find to reach both outdoor keys are these tiny, unlit doors that easily blend into the surrounding walls of their dark rooms. They might as well be secrets; I had to look over my automap just to notice that either door was there at all. Gameplay flows much more smoothly if you use light to draw the player's attention to where they have to go next, rather than hiding critical doors in the dark while the player stumbles around, not knowing which wall to hump next. Maybe they're easier to see with Brutal Doom's lighting, I dunno.

Part of the tunnel in the first outdoor nukage area non-damaging, as is the nukage pit between the main hallway and the exit door. This second area is more annoying, since it also seems to be inescapable. =[

I'd critique all the misaligned, missing, or misused textures that I found, but since you say texturing is only 15% done, I figure you already know about that.

Hoping to see the next revision, or perhaps an entirely new map.

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I've played the map in GZDoom, but without Brutal Doom. I didn't like the level much at all. I agree with what the reviewers above said. Visuals were messy and horrible, due to completely misaligned and missing textures everywhere, notably on sides of doors. In addition, many rooms and corridors were textured monochromatically, which is usually ugly for itself. You also went unnecessarily fancy with dynamic lights in a few places, but it didn't look much good at all, in fact I didn't like the lighting overally, even though it was relatively complex. Well, you said that you'll be working on it.

Gameplay didn't appeal to me either. There were numerous high-HP monsters that were only tedious to kill, not efficiently challenging as they should. The map mostly consisted of rooms connected by doors and hallways, gameplay lacked verticality (usage of height variation during combat) and lacked efficient challenge and action pace. Try to place the monsters in order to be as threatening as possible, and for example let multiple of them attack the player from multiple directions and heights at the same time, because just encountering them from the front side from a distance gets boring fast and doesn't provide sufficient challenge.

I didn't find any way to escape the nukage pit, that's bad and you should prevent inescapable places to ever exist in your maps, because getting stuck is never fun.

You're apparently trying to make your rooms elaborate in structure, which shows your effort. In my view, it only results in a mess, but that will improve as you gain experience.

Well, sorry that I'm sounding quite negative, but your map is very imperfect in this state. Anyway, good luck improving it. Perhaps look at other people's good maps to get an inspiration what makes a good gameplay / design / visuals in them.

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It's a nice level. Texturing is a bit messy but it gives the areas a unique look and as I understand you're going to work on it more. Gameplay was fun, easy for me but I don't have Brutal Doom.

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I will take every single bit of feedback into consideration and release a revision. This is exactly what I wanted.

Obsidian - Thank you much for your feedback, every bit helps a new mapper find his way! Yes you're totally right, BD made it a completely different level, I wouldn't of tested it had I really played through without it. Would you recommend photobucket?

Mithran - Thanks for the input! I have to agree, I need to guide with light, especially important doors. Do you think I should have less-linear play? I always liked E1M1's courtyard, and most of E1's windows. Do you mean the room with the chaingunner and imp on top of the crates? If so I would lean more towards that type of design.

Scifista - Thanks for your review! Don't apologize for sounding negative, i'm striving for top quality design and if someone doesn't enjoy it, I need to know why. Thank you for the honest critique. If you have time would you tell me:

A) Should it be brighter?

B) What kind of enemies v Weapon scenarios do you like? I know alot of people don't want to fight a caco with a pistol, so i'm trying to find the most satisfying gameplay. (BD has veiled this for me, because all shotgun blasts are satisfying there lol)

Memfis - Thanks man, it's harder with BD but not Plutonia hard. Would you prefer really difficult levels? I do myself but I was thinking Episode 1 ease of play. What's your favorite weapon vs Monster combo?

Can anyone recommend their own work, or a top techbase quality wad I can run through?

I suppose I will test with regular DooM from here on out (as much as I hate to, BD rocks), because it is night/day on this level.

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JCB said:

was quite surprised to find my lightning to be subpar.

Your lighting is not subpar like if there was not enough variation or work put into it, no; your lighting is subpar like incoherent and sometimes illogical, that's how I've seen it.

Do you guys like little nukage mazes leading to items or just an exit?

I've said this in another beginner mapper's thread, and I'm going to tell you the same: Exploring optional areas with extra gameplay and extra goodies is a great thing, much better that having just one linear path. But each optional place should be worthy to visit for some reason, preferably more than one reason: Fun gameplay, items, interesting visuals, curiosity. Don't just put 20 side rooms into a hallway, that's a crappy design. Interconnecting the optional areas is also a good idea, rather than making them to be separate rooms / branches.

I suppose I will test with regular DooM from here on out

That's a good idea. You know, a LOT of people in this community either dislike Brutal Doom, or simply highly prefer the unmodded game over any gameplay mods. I'm in the latter camp. ;)

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Does the outdoors area feel contrived?

I have revised this thread's map, so the texture alignment and darkness don't put off anyone else.

Keep in mind I don't know how to make switches, platforms, teleporters yet. The trigger walk-over for the 2nd door is on the blue platform in the left room. ( My open/stay's don't seem to work)

If anyone needs a playtest, alpha/beta let me know I will be more than happy to do the same for you. I'm going to become a positive, contributing member of this community.

This is my true first map -http://www.mediafire.com/download/0oxk2z2ztg7r5lb/JCB_ITDm1.wad

Although I can't recommend it.

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I personally prefer brighter levels over dark ones. Also non-linear, interconnected, both varied and unified in something, and with appropriately challenging gameplay. It mustn't take too much time if I wanted to kill all monsters, but still make them threatening through their clever placement.

All monsters tougher than a Revenant are usually uncomfortable to kill with any weapon weaker than a Super Shotgun, so don't make the player fight multiple of these without providing appropriate weaponry and ammo - otherwise, an average player will try to skip the fights by running past the monsters, and whether he'll be successful or not, he'll likely complain about the map's design. That's another thing - when preparing a challenging fight, don't let the player to skip it too easily and without a risk.

Variation itself is generally a good thing to keep a map entertaining. Feel free to add lots of variation in heights, lighting, room shapes, enemy choices, combat scenarios and possible strategies the player can efficiently use.

Providing enough space for player's movement is definitely a great idea, far better than any claustrophobic hallways. A lot of players like "running and gunning", and anything that slows them down is considered an annoyance.

If you want examples of good maps, start here: Cacowards. The compilation of 10 best community-made maps/mapsets/mods per each year. Several of them strike me as especially quality, so that I'm going to give them an advertisement and recommend them to you: Vanguard, Lunatic, Jenesis, Back to Saturn X E1, Back to Saturn X E2, Going Down. Of course that they're many many more, but take a look at these, they have awesome maps to play and to learn design principles from.

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Thanks again Scifista, valuable input here. I've heard of the Cacoawards, but have never checked them out.

I suppose my problem is that i'm envisioning the very first DooM episode as my inspiration. (with a little tnt/plutonia).

I will check out all of your recommend wads and use them to refine current and future projects.

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JCB said:

I was surprised to find 4 people tested my map, im used to bigger/newer engines that take weeks for any feedback, so this is much more exciting to me.

Is it usual for a mapper to test on this forum? I don't have a ton of time to create a wad without any testing, so I wanted to see what you'll thought first.

Testing is common, but what I mean is testing of basically complete maps, which are only tested for bug reports and possible little improvements; not maps with visibly incomplete texturing, visuals, layout and gameplay, extremely ugly or game-breaking bugs etc.

Usually, a mapper posts a thread in Wads&Mods with a beta download link, a few screenshots and stating the map's IWAD (Doom / Doom2 / other) and compatibility (vanilla / Boom / (G)ZDoom / other) - if the port is (G)ZDoom, better also state whether jumping is allowed or not. Within 24 hours, he gets several feedback responses (the better his map / his screenshots are, the more responses) - in case of vanilla or Boom maps, he might also get FDA demos. Then the thread is usually forgotten forever. The mapper might react to the feedback, release an improved map and sometimes he gets a couple more replies. Eventually he often uploads the final wad to the /idgames archive (to upload, see guide), and that's it. That's my experience how it usually goes with single maps or small unambitious mapsets.

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JCB said:

Also, it just occured to me that some of you may not jump? Is it normal for players to jump things, or should I shoot for 100% classic, no jump, no mouse aim style design?

Jumping, crouching, etc, are all well and good, so long as you design the maps with those features in mind. Make sure to let the players know what they're expected to be able to do, as well. It's not great when we have to guess whether or not we're supposed to be able to hop over a fence or duck into a low window. You can disable these features using MAPINFO, if you want to enforce limitations, as well.

Atmosphere, do players prefer dark scary contrasting light or full bright-esque levels? It seems bright is better? Mostly bright and some dark contrasting areas?

Variation and contrast between bright areas and dark areas will usually tend to create a good atmosphere. Dark scary areas are best in moderation, otherwise they eventually stop being scary, and you just feel like you're stumbling around for no reason. Since you are using E1 as inspoiration, the optional computer maze in E1M2: Nuclear Plant is a pretty good example of prolonged darkness done well within an overall brighter map, because the darkness is a marked contrast from the previous areas, it's skippable, yet there are several payoffs that make exploring it worthwhile, and there is enough strategic use of lighting and interconnection that it's hard to feel helplessly lost.

Does the outdoors area feel contrived?

I liked the outdoor area more than the interior area. It could use some expansion and variation like the rest of the level, but it's not contrived.

Scifista or anyone - do you happen to have a personal level or two I can play through for tips on gameplay? Large, open, non-linear or Dark, claustrophobic hallways? What's your preference?

Of scifista's recommendations, I've only played BTSX E1 and Vanguard, but I second both of those as great examples. UAC Ultra, Double Impact, and Sunder are some favorites of mine as well, all worth looking at for different reasons. I think this is the last full map I've released publically (as part of CC4.) While there are changes I'd make to the level in retrospect (e.g. needs more rocket launcher, play it and see), I did consciously aim for variation and contrast in environments, architecture, object placement, and lighting. As you may see, I'm less adherent to the idea that battles should always be hard to skip (exiting my maps with 0 kills is often pretty feasible), so long as fights remain engaging when you actually stick around to clear out the level for 100% kills.

if anyone has about 5 minutes (lol) to run through my other map, named E1m1 but has hellish elements so I was going to put it further in the Ep. It is mostly unfinished the same as this one, but before I go through all of the trouble of aligning texturing and placement, I want some feedback on whether or not you experienced fellows think it's worth it, or to scrap and start a new project.


The overall gameplay in this map is not particularly enthralling (it's a lot of flat boxy hallways and doors leading into mostly-empty rooms), though it has some highlights in terms of design. The red key room is a step in the right direction, but it needs to be opened up a bit, livened up, and made to not look so messy. The BFG ledge overlooking the open courtyard gave me the impression that you have the sense and capability to make cool areas, and that you're just still stumbling through the rough part of the 2.5d learning curve. I would suggest treating this level as valuable practice in familiarizing yourself with mapping for Doom, and use the experience to design something that looks better and plays more smoothly.

As you get a better sense of the scale and details of common architectural constructs (doors, windows, ), and a better sense of how to make your areas and monster encounters more interesting, you'll be able to build a new level from scratch more quickly than all the time it would take to go through this level and fix everything. With layout and architecture especially, it's usually simpler to design it coherently from the start than it is to go back and fix up a messy level. If you simply build all your doors at the actual scale of your door textures, for example, you'll save yourself a headache.

Keep in mind I don't know how to make switches, platforms, teleporters yet. The trigger walk-over for the 2nd door is on the blue platform in the left room. ( My open/stay's don't seem to work)

It does seem that the most glaring issues in these maps are simply due to unfamiliarity with doom editing. Keep at it, I expect you'll make awesome levels once you're comfortable with the format.

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Thank you for your excellent reply! That makes all the time worth it! This 2.5d style has many benefits, but of course alot of new things to ponder over. That's why I came here, so I could get some valuable design advice.

Lighting to guide the player was a key piece of advice I will never forget!

I'm going to attempt to flesh it out into an E1m1 (or it could go the way of my other map).


I think I made a very clever BFG secret but I have to wait until someone tests it again to let me know

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Since everyone has already left detailed comments, I'll just say good job for a beginner mapper and keep at it! I had fun with this one.

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As I've advised you in my previous post (which you might have overlooked), you should make it clear in your Original Post that this wad:
-is for Doom 2 (IWAD)
-requires GZDoom (lowest-compatible sourceport)
-and whether jumping is allowed or not (only relevant if the lowest-compatible sourceport allows jumping, which GZDoom does, so you should say yes or no)

People like to play Doom in various ways and source ports, and they look out for different kinds of wads according to their preferences, also they want to get the intended experience when they already download something. For all these reasons, this basic info about compatibility should be provided at the top. ;)

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Oops I forgot Scifista! Gotcha now. How can I thumbnail screenshots?

Scifista - Is it possible to make a map with GzDoom builder, and test in Gzdoom, but still be compatible with other source ports? e.i by leaving out dynamic lights?

Mithran Denizen - WOW! I am completely humbled by your map, and see that I have a long way to go. The cave areas were outstanding... the glass was great, the elevator at the end awesome.... The secret under the nukage fall that only became apparent after the radiation suit was on.... dude outstanding. MY final time was 7:24 on UV. I will be dling your other work as I find it.

I could ask you a million questions about a map like that, but I'll keep it to two:

Did you make that skybox, snow, ice texture? How did you block the passage through the windows to the exit room?

I know you can't anwser this, but holy s*** that elevator at the end was amazing... That level reminded me more of my Source engine maps then an old DooM level. I always liked elevators with terrain elements, models and lights.

I haven't played enough newer wads, my standard of quality was basically like an e1m2/3, I see that I need more for a 2015 wad. It's a good thing though. I hate to scrap this project but I would have to force it into a much larger area to compete with something like yours.

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Use [img] tags to embed screenshots. Quote a post of someone on this forum who did it, to see how it works.

You should decide your map's compatibility beforehand, and always actually test it in the port you claim to be lowest-compatible. A common problem of allegedly universally compatible maps are so-called "zdoomisms", design choices that will work in ZDoom but not in lower ports, even if the map itself is created in vanilla format. (Map editor totally doesn't matter.)

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Thanks again Scifista, i'm not sure if you're an admin but I think you should be, lol.

My screenshots will be useful now! Btw I did fix the alignment on the first one right after I uploaded the image... you were in the back of my mind the whole time, haha.

I will eventually start a new project, I want to see if I can get any other input on this first, then i'll probably delete this thread entirely and present a new project.

I would like for any source port to be able to play my levels, but i'll deal with that later. In your experience what is the current most used SP?

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Thanks bro! I may have a bit of a head start from a decade of level design in true 3d, but in some ways this is more difficult.

It's easier to throw down a layout, but much harder to convey an idea or make it meaningful.

I'm sure you're a great mapper though, if you have anything you want tested/timed out let me know.

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JCB said:

I would like for any source port to be able to play my levels, but i'll deal with that later. In your experience what is the current most used SP?

Wait, one by one.

As I've told you, several main compatibility groups exist among wads:

  • Vanilla compatible = Flawlessly playable in Doom2.exe engine and any source port. The map mustn't use any advanced features that the vanilla format doesn't support, nor "ZDoomisms" (design choices working in ZDoom but not other ports, even if the map is in vanilla format). "Chocolate Doom" is a sourceport well emulating vanilla behaviour and running under modern operating systems.
  • Limit removing = Playable in any sourceport that removes Static limits, which means more freedom to the mapper (unlimited detail etc.), but the map mustn't use any advanced features or ZDoomisms.
  • Boom compatible = Playable in a Boom compatible sourceport, the most common one today is PrBoom-plus, the primary port for most speedrunners and demo recorders. Boom map format allows additional and generalized linedef actions and even more freedom for the mapper. ZDoom features and ZDoomisms are still a no.
  • ZDoom compatible = Playable in ZDoom or a derived port. ZDoom allows very advanced features (scripts, slopes, MAPINFO, DECORATE, UDMF format, infinite customization), but demo compatibility is bad and unstable. Non demo recorders often use this port.
  • GZDoom/OpenGL compatible = GZDoom allows all that ZDoom does + dynamic lights, sloped 3D floors, exotic render styles and more.
  • Port specific / Game specific = Playable in an intended source port or an intended way (specified by the author), statistically the least common and least popular kinds of maps. On the other hand, people use various ports to play Doom, not just the ones I've mentioned.
Be sure that dynamic lights won't work in lesser ports than GZDoom - it fact, their mere presence would break the game. Similarly with other features above the lowest-compatibility standards. That's why you should design your map with a certain compatibility in mind, otherwise you'd have either to cut out features, or risk not using the full potential if you target a certain high compatibility but only use the most basic features.

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Very informative breakdown, appreciate it.

Final question: What's the process of watching a demo in prboom+? I downloaded it last night

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JCB said:

Mithran Denizen - WOW![...]

[/b]
Glad you enjoyed it! That level was actually a learning experience for me. It started largely as an excuse to play around with some of the extended Boom modding features scifista alluded to (e.g. stuff like slippery ice, translucent glass windows, fake room-over-room layouts [the underground rocket launcher room], teleporting inanimate objects, underwater effects, and the sort of limited 'scripting' that can allow things like the ending elevator ride, or the fact that the three doors to that multi-tiered secret behind the nukage fall will always open in the right order, no matter which order you find the three hidden yellow key switches in.) A lot of the stuff in this map, I'd never used before. My previous experience was mainly with simpler vanilla E1-style maps, or toying around with heavily-scripted (and mostly silly, unplayable) ideas in advanced engines like ZDoom.

I could ask you a million questions about a map like that, but I'll keep it to two:

Did you make that skybox, snow, ice texture?


I'm happy to chat and clear up whatever I can. As far as I recall, I only personally edited one texture for that map: the ice used on the frozen waterfall by the cave entrance (it's a simple recoloration of one of the animated waterfall graphics). That sky and all the other custom textures are from the Community Chest 4 texture pack, compiled from a ton of miscellaneous stuff by various authors.

Community Chest 4 is well worth a look if you want to see a nicely polished assortment of levels from a variety of mapper perspectives. The download also includes the texture resource wad itself (inside 'cc4-tex.zip'), which you can load in Doom builder as a resource for making your own maps. There is a lot of cool stuff in there... but it's expansive to the point that it can be overkill / too much to sort through, especially if you're still familiarizing yourself with what textures Doom on its own already has to work with.

How did you block the passage through the windows to the exit room?

I don't have an editor open in front of me, by it's probably just simple use of impassable lines: in Doom Builder, right-click on a line to bring up the line properties window, and then select the 'impassable' flag to block players or monsters from crossing that line, . E1M1 uses this on the windows in the start room, for example, which is why you can't just hop through them to grab the blue armor, even if you jump. If the window you're referring to blocks attacks also (i.e. the translucent glass windows), then that's a more complicated construct involving a slightly more advanced mapping feature which lets you render a raised section of wall as if it were flat empty space.

I haven't played enough newer wads, my standard of quality was basically like an e1m2/3, I see that I need more for a 2015 wad. It's a good thing though. I hate to scrap this project but I would have to force it into a much larger area to compete with something like yours.

Standards have, in a lot of respects, improved from the days of Doom's E1. If nothing else, we have better tools and more familiarity with the game than they did back then, so we can afford to be a tad pickier about how things look and play. But, just because it's 2015, that doesn't mean every new release is a borderline overwrought mess like that CC4 map of mine. ;p Many awesome projects take a lot of inspiration from the old days, and there are still plenty of designers that strive toward (and excel at!) a more "refined minimalism." I think almost all players still enjoy the 'updated classic' style, too: simple but clever designs, executed well.

Anyway, keep playing around in the editor, you'll get the hang of things.

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Thanks for the info man, I've since learned how to make impassable windows, nukage falls (easy eh?), and teleporters... but the damn lift still evades me.. I can make things lift, but it's usually the floor next to the actual lift. I think im using the wrong linedef action.

I'm going to revise this one more time to include my teleporters and a new outdoor area leading to another uac complex. Then im going to let this die and create something new.

I would've did that already but ive gotten over 60+ downloads on this, which is waay more publicity then I expected. I know now to have something good first.

See ya at the Cacoawards (jk, maybe ;) )


edit* Man you somehow inspired me and since this post I made a level with: a switch that turns lights on , a switch that raises and lowers platforms, reliable teleporters, and a cyberdemon cage, with a shootable switch across the room that activates a crusher on his ass.. I think i'm ready now.

Also Platform Change Generic is everything I wanted lol

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