50 Monsters - on idgames!

[scifista42]

AD_79 said:

I could absolutely do that, I just left it outside for editing convenience and didn't really bother to add it to the wad, heh. Will be changed!

EDIT: Updated, it should work in ZDoom-based ports now.

I've just downloaded the beta from the OP and the DEHACKED is still not inside the wad. Also what rdwpa said, PrBoom-plus reads DEHACKED inside wads too, as does practically every port since MBF.

[AD_79]

scifista42 said:

I've just downloaded the beta from the OP and the DEHACKED is still not inside the wad. Also what rdwpa said, PrBoom-plus reads DEHACKED inside wads too, as does practically every port since MBF.

Sorry about that, it'll be in the wad for the next beta, whenever that is. Trust me!

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far, I'm actually surprised I forgot there was no chaingun in MAP08, heh. Curious what you'll think about the rest of the set.

Oh, before I forget, I should probably mention that MAP32 has no difficulty settings yet because I'm lazy \ :D /

[AnonimVio]

I've just beaten the whole thing on UV in 2.5 hours and I must say - you've done it well.


It's really hard to make a good megawad out of a single gimmick, it could be just a few maps and the overall feeling would be better. But you decided to make full 32 map replacement


Design of the levels is beautiful and clean. You've made a good use of textures. I really liked upside down marble faces on MAP16. Gameplay is solid for the most part, but there are places that just uses the returning scheme: revenants, arachnotrons, cybruisers and pain elemental. It can get quite boring sometimes. You've managed to kill my attention in EP2 and bring it back with EP3. I also expected it to be a bit harder, but that's probably because I've played without pistol starting. Also, MAP31 is just awful. It's bland, boring and it doesn't have a cool gimmick. Come on, it's a secret map! It's supposed to be different than other maps!


For now it's a solid 4/5, in my opinion best megawad of 2015 so far.

[AD_79]

AnonimVio said:

Gameplay is solid for the most part, but there are places that just uses the returning scheme: revenants, arachnotrons, cybruisers and pain elemental. It can get quite boring sometimes. You've managed to kill my attention in EP2 and bring it back with EP3. I also expected it to be a bit harder, but that's probably because I've played without pistol starting. Also, MAP31 is just awful. It's bland, boring and it doesn't have a cool gimmick. Come on, it's a secret map! It's supposed to be different than other maps!


For now it's a solid 4/5, in my opinion best megawad of 2015 so far.

I suppose the samey-ness is to be expected with a mostly-one-man megawad, I'm not that great at varied gameplay but I do try! For continuous play I feel it's too easy, especially on the lower difficulties and will certainly be looked into. MAP31... well, I can easily replace that one, it's one of the oldest maps in the set and I'm not a huge fan of it.

Glad you're liking it though :P

[Deadwing]

Oh, is it alreadly 30 maps released? Awesome!

I will be playing this soon :D

[dobu gabu maru]

Gimme the beta with the dehacked shoved inside the wad and I'll give it a spin

[Suitepee]

I look forward to playing this at the weekend!

[AD_79]

Ok, added the dehacked into the wad and made a few small changes to E1.

[gaspe]

Fdas for MAP11 to MAP20, including the secret levels. Some are failed and I gave up as I didn't feel so persistent to make other tries. Gameplay goes a bit too much on killing mid-tier monsters with the shotgun or the chaingun. E2 was quite enjoyable but it didn't impress me so much. It started to get better on MAP18. I'm looking forward to play the rest of the maps tomorrow.

[koren]

This is a very entertaining set of maps. I've been rather unwell today so I spent an otherwise unproductive afternoon limping my way through the first half of this wad. FDAs for maps 1-16, cl2, UV difficulty.

A few notes:
4: I got stuck for a while before I saw the step letting me jump out of a window. I could also grab the megasphere without actually reaching the secret platform. I assume you're supposed to rocket jump to it.
5: This map was quite challenging, the vile setup is really dangerous if you push out into the hitscan crossfire. You can sort-of hide in the lift and hug the doorframe for cover though.
6: Very surprised to see that rocket shooting baron from valiant, not really sure what to make of it though.
8: So many bullets and not a chaingun in sight! Speaking of, the chaingunner was vicious and caught me off guard. The big lift near the BSK was rather irritating as it got in the way, raised and lowered very quickly and took the sting out of the encounters near the bottom. Also, there didn't seem to be a way out of the final room, which bugged me because I left a revenant alive.
9: Very tight on ammo but that's how I like it.
13: The berserk at the end of the map was strange but no worries.
15: The start of this map was frantic and great fun to break out of, as was the trap when you come back to pick up the key. The big metal walls that get lowered by the blue switch had some weird red bleed from the edges as you can see in my demo.
31: The cyberdemon setup was a bit odd and he wasn't too threatening once you grab the blue key. Once the map was over it was a chore to finish him off with the ssg. I didn't find the secret exit and assume it might have had some cells or something to speed thing up.
32: Accidental exited the map while trying to pick up the BFG. Move it a little bit further from the teleporter.

Looking forward to playing the rest of the maps in the next few days.

[dobu gabu maru]

Alright, here we go. UV, keyboard, pistol starts, saving.

MAP01: An alright starter here—funny to see Valiant adjustments like the sped up demon and ammo drop from the chaingunner. One of my personal adjustments is to make different ceilings per object—this is a perfect example of ceilings that may need differentiation. I may not make a lot of comments per map because 50 monster really isn’t much to get a feel for or requires major adjustments… if anything I’m just peeking around for things that are out of place.

MAP02: Definitely a better map than MAP01—more curved spaces, interesting layout, decent fights, and a non-hub design. Strange to see no secrets. For the blue key fight, you should take two shells from later in the map and place them there, as I ran out of ammo trying to fight the cacodemon after the blue key switch. Otherwise, good work here; I like the use of single rev use in order to spice things up.

MAP03: Bit of a difficulty spike in that room with the two revs and chaingunner up top. I think the thing that threw me off here is that I died a couple times trying to get through it, and then was rewarded with green armor which I barely used (finished the map at 93% left). The green armor would be a lot more helpful for that area, since if you miss SGing the chaingunner straight away, you’re taking damage from him, hitscanners to your right, and potential rev missiles—70% with no armor isn’t much with a couple slip-ups. Otherwise, this was a neat map. I like the scant nonlinearity and use of multiple blue doors here, as it provides a little variation to some otherwise entirely linear affairs.

That’s all for now; gonna work at this piece by piece inbetween Sunlust.

[Dave The Daring]

I'm going to try and play this sometime this week. I always thought AD_79's idea of limiting the amount of monsters per map was a more natural way of making smaller maps, compared to restricting the actual map dimensions or limiting the number of linedefs.

[scifista42]

I suggest you to add a properly paletted "M_MULTI" graphic lump into the wad. The default one in Zandronum.pk3 is in PNG format, which makes it unaffected by your new palette and so it appears slightly lighter than other menu graphics in Zandronum:



You can rip the original "M_MULTI" from Zandronum.pk3, or (since I've already done it for you) save it from here:

[rhinoduck]

Hi there, I was doing some checks before putting this on a server and map24 seems to be missing coop starts (as the only one).

[AD_79]

rhinoduck said:

Hi there, I was doing some checks before putting this on a server and map24 seems to be missing coop starts (as the only one).

I should probably mention, that this wasn't really made with coop in mind, so it might have issues there, heh. Thanks for pointing out that I missed some coop starts though, I'll add them in.

[gaspe]

If you care to watch some other bad played demos, map21-30. MAP21 is missing the chaingun I think. I managed to beat the maps I gave up using some saves. I think that many times the ammo happens to be really low.
Overall I liked this wad, the gimmick to use a limited number of monsters was interesting to make smaller maps. It's quite varied on the level themes and they are plenty of references to other wads, it was actually kinda cool to recognize them. The only thing I didn't liked so much was all those pain elementals put in open spaces, and maybe it's a bit overdone with the AVs :P

[scifista42]

This wad disappointed me a lot. I remembered 50mon_e1 as a swift, clean, casually simplistic while modern styled mapset. Now it turned into a non-distinct bloated ripoff-fest with every modern wad cliche included. Already the titlepic didn't appeal to me for being too gritty, then I saw the menu texts and recognized the unreasonably popular modern dark red palette, and while these 2 issues alone were minor, I started to fear genericness, which confirmed to be legitimate several seconds later when I started playing. I was appalled how much of a Valiant ripoff (sprites / DEHACKED / music / theme...) this wad became, then I gradually started recognizing traits of some other wads like BTSX E2 and Requiem. I hate blatant ripoffs. Also, repetition. Many of the maps repeated a very similar gimmick with descending liquid. Many of them featured same-y caves, rivers, stone/soil paths, bunkers and other structures. In addition and unlike Valiant, the map themes change completely randomly and sometimes also randomly re-appear in an almost identical form as seen before. This wad's audio-visual presentation simply makes me cringe, it's trying-too-hard to be cool by being unoriginal without a sense, and I can't stand it. Gameplay-wise the maps are OK, fun to rush through and all, but damn similar to each other whatsoever, in both short length and types of encounters, which made me bored fast. Sorry, this wad just completely failed to accomplish what I enjoyed in the E1 demo and what I was looking for in this megawad-sized version. Your (obviously high) effort went into a way that I can't appreciate for what it is: Wannabe-cool ripoff-heavy heap of random content.

tl;dr - Sorry, I don't like this megawad.

[AD_79]

scifista42 said:

tl;dr - Sorry, I don't like this megawad.

Well, thanks for the write-up, I can respect that this is your opinion. However, I'm not seeing too much of what you see as a Valiant ripoff. It may have a few monsters from Valiant, and... what else? I'd argue the overall design is different and is (somewhat) its own thing. As for it being a seemingly random pile of maps, I can see where you're coming from but I wanted to make a varied set. Did I succeed? Apparently not in a good way, heh. Not sure about the "wannabe-cool" thing, I personally don't see that at all.

All I'm doing here is making the maps that I like playing :P

[Memfis]

I can definitely understand what scifista means when he talks about similarities to Valiant. When I played this yesterday I thought to myself "ok, starting from maps 10-11 this is pretty much all skillsaw kissassery". It's interesting to me that you don't see it. Well, most mappers are somewhat oblivious to their own mapping I think.

[Tristan]

I haven't played this yet (idclev'd around) but I definitely see a lot of similarity to Valiant.
Not that that's a bad thing, of course.

[koren]

Finished the rest of the maps today, here's FDAs for 17-30, excluding 24 which I managed to overwrite.

I have to disagree and say that I liked how the maps were clear homages to other wads. It was charming and competently put together. Most importantly, the way each map played felt non-derivative except for some obvious skillsaw-esque exceptions. There were enough set pieces and novel fight ideas to keep me engaged the whole way through. When maps were a bit dull, the constraints naturally ensured they were brief and they didn't outstay their welcome.

My biggest problem for me was the usage of some non-standard monsters. I'm not a fan of the cybruiser. He's extremely dangerous relative to every other monster and it's very easy to miss his attacks because the sprite is small and he blends into crowds. You also placed them in a lot of tight spaces and traps where the splash was a real problem. With a cyberdemon you can always hear them stomping around, they can't get into little nooks and when they start shooting, it's very hard to miss it. The spectre chaingunners also were a step too far for me. The valiant demon sprite was silly looking and I don't think it added anything of value. if anything, reverting to the default might reduce the valiant deja-vu for folks.

Notes:
17 - Was able to take the sting out of the vile traps by dropping back down through the yellow door and taking pot shots at them from the below. Probably for the best as I was hurting for ammo through most of the map.
18 - Lethal use of the rocket hell knights. again, The lack of a chaingun is quite apparent on this map, i'd have quite liked one to take care of the stray imps.
20 - I liked the opening arrangement, the big arena was straightforward enough for the most part. I was rather shocked to see the afrit given the focus seemed to be on valiant monsters. Strangely, they make a robotic noise when they die.
21 - This map was begging for a chaingun, especially for clearing the lost soul spam.
22 - Surprisingly gentle and plentiful ammo for once. A mancubus didn't teleport in for me.
23- Accidental overwrote my demo file. Getting off the spider platform was an inconsistent and confusing affair. Died there in my first run because couldn't find an obvious way back. I hopped down into the lava looking for a teleporter and mutated. The next time I lined up to try and strafejump back to the mainland and it teleported me to safety. The bridge trap with the demon and cybruiser was intensely nasty.
24 - Another map without a chaingun and an active pain elemantal.
25 - The initial room with the cyberdemon and cybruiser was really brutal. Going back to it, I got sniped through the flames which was a little frustrating.
26 - I managed to cheese the vile room by catching one with plasma before properly entering.
28 - The opening pin in this map was really harsh and I only managed to escape by the grace of god. You can hug the walls to break vile line of sight in the grid area, which also kept me alive.
29 - Not a fan of the cybruiser usage in the red zone. When you're forced to push forward into them at the pier, it's very easy to get clipped by splash or miss the visual indication that they're firing in the chaos. The fight where the player's movement is heavily constrained by an archvile and you get ambushed from the side is ridiculously lethal because of the splash potential.

Also the invisible chaingunners seemed gratuitous and unfair. Skillsaw got away with the spectre variants of monsters because he put them in a secret map and it was clear as to why they were there and their appearance was telegraphed. Here it just felt like a one-time way to heap damage on an unsuspecting player.

In my FDA I managed to stupidly screw up in the very last arena when I should have been safe. After that I was a little bit tilted so I put the map to one side and came back later to see it through to end.

30 - The fog effects were really neat. As was the boss monster spitting out multiple lost souls, which i've never seen before.

[baja blast rd.]

I wonder if there's a way to make the cybruiser better (without sacrificial changes like weakening the cyber rocket). Quickly jumped to map 10 and IDDQD'd to observed it, and it seems like one problem is that it attacks too frequently. And maybe there could be more of a delay between when it telegraphs its attack and when it fires. Valiant mostly used it in cybruiser-only setups in tight-ish (but not exceptionally so) spaces with cover, and it's fine in that role in its current form. But maps seem to need particular sorts of tech themes for cybruiser-only setups to not seem weird, and for the sake of flexibility (synergy with other monsters, mostly) it would need to be nerfed a bit.

Then again, the ideal threat level is probably a very narrow region, because if it's nerfed too much, it might end up being a mini "slaughter cyber" -- a monster that spends more time assisting the player with infighting than it does as a big threat.

[4shockblast]

Some FDAs. Though I played earlier versions of a few of these maps in the early release. Too lazy/not enough time for writeups. :P

[dobu gabu maru]

I would say AD is inspired by skillsaw (and also predominantly the BtSX mappers), but to call it a “wannabe-cool ripoff-heavy” wad is too blunt. There’s similarities of course, brought out through the use of Valiant’s monster palette, but AD has his own visual quirks and the fact that the wad focuses on smaller-scale fights makes it obviously un-Valianty to me.

MAP04: Dayum this one was good. I dunno if it’s because I’m more drawn to subterranean areas, the use of metal textures here, or that the fights were more clausterphobic, but I had a ton of fun—my favorite thus far. Only thing I’m ambivalent towards is the jump to the red door that leads to the exit. I got lost looking for how to get to that red door, not realizing that I had to make a jump there… I needed something a little more noticeable/eye catching to pull me to that ledge, like the step having a different flat or the lower texture of the window being different.

MAP05: Was this an early map? The rectangular rooms and spacey layout make it feel a bit older and unrefined, though the monster placement suggests otherwise. Seriously, that archvile? That’s mean. It’s a “mean” I thoroughly enjoyed but still, just wanted to point out that his placement is real nasty. The major change I’d suggest is adding two medikits down in the water PE trap, as you gave IIRC nothing which made it a bit rough for me (I died to the chaingunners, of course). Other than that it’s good; the layout of the map was a little more boring but that water trap made up for it.

MAP06: Oof, this one felt even rougher than the last one from a design standpoint. There’s some good parts like the manc near the green armor and the rev+imp combo awaiting you in front of the SSG, but otherwise all combat was directly ahead and therefore not really engaging. The cyb fight was kinda cute: since I’m playing in Zdoom it gives him a chance to blast the surrounding lamposts which makes the fight a lot more exciting (as you have to make sure to lead his shots down the bridge, not off to the side), so you could raise them up if you want it to be equally thrilling in Boom ports. Also what was with the two medikits in the starting room you can't go back to pick up? Are they there just for continuous players? I think having two medikits in the water trap in MAP05 would render these unnecessary. And lastly, more similar flats—argh!

I’m really curious to see how the latter maps pan out because like most mappers that work at Doom for a while, I think AD has gotten better and I’m pumped to see what kind of "modern" stuff he made.

[AD_79]

dobu gabu maru said:

MAP05: Was this an early map? The rectangular rooms and spacey layout make it feel a bit older and unrefined, though the monster placement suggests otherwise.

MAP05 is one of the oldest maps in the set (MAP06 being the oldest), haha. About the MAP06 starting medkits, yeah that's for continuous players, though I agree it could be handled a bit better!

BTW, should have a small update up soon that changes some things (throwing the valiant demon and lost soul sprites out for one, as apparently it wasn't a good idea to include them :P)

[skillsaw]

Just finished this, on UV, pistol starting all maps. I had plenty of fun, maps are all well made, mostly fun to play (going to admit that I just said "nope" at the last fight of map29, haha) and executed very professionally.

Regarding similarities to Valiant, I definitely see it in some maps, but it's not overwhelming to me. I think it's mostly the similar texture choices (recolored Suspended in Dusk rocks, support3 variants, the metal bits of woodmet everyhwere, the bloody red bricks from gothictx...) that makes it remniscient of Valiant E2. Gameplay is similar in that there's a pretty clear emphasis on constant action and straightforward flow as opposed to exploration, but that's true for a lot of releases nowadays. AD makes the gameplay his own by limiting the availability of health and ammo, and he makes you use low tier weapons a lot(probably to help the maps last longer than 30 seconds, since they'd all end pretty quickly if you had the RL and Plasma to start given the 50 monster limit).

Anyways, I guess I'm just a big believer that execution trumps everything else and this wad was executed very well.

Random complaints, nothing terribly important:

-Map09: There's some random green SID rocks by the SSG. The rest of the rocks use a different texture.
-map16: I had to turn the gamma up to play this map comfortably - there's didn't seem to be enough contrast between the dark, black rock floors and the dark, black marble walls and I had a hard time telling exactly where I was/what I was bumping into.
-map20: Some of the gates that lower to allow monsters into the main arena had their texture lower unpegged.
-map28: Not sure if this is intentional but you can knock the AVs off their perches. Monster blocking lines if you want to prevent this I guess?

I'd agree with rdwpa and koren that maybe the cybruiser could use some tweaking - it seems like there is less of a delay when he fires as compared to the Valiant version. Not saying one is better than the other, but it might be worth playing with a bit.

Anyways, thanks for this wad, I really enjoyed it!

[AD_79]

Thanks skillsaw! I'll definitely mess around with the cybruiser's timings and whatnot as well as fix the issues you mentioned. Funny thing about MAP09, I had it textured in the green/gray rocks for a while before changing it back to its original ashwall. Looks like I missed a couple bits!

[Breezeep]

Glad you enjoyed it, Skillsaw! Especially map12, It sucks :P

[AD_79]

Beta 2 is a thing (not too much changed, mainly bugfixes and shit).

[baja blast rd.]

Probably a good idea to leave the old betas up in spoiler or something if people who didn't dl old betas want to watch others' FDAs after playing. I can't be the only person who likes watching FDAs. :p

It was fun to see that in map13, koren ran out of ammo in basically the same way as me. I enjoyed the lack of ammo; the shellbox is there but it was kind of scary to enter the one-way drop ammo-less.