50 Monsters - on idgames!

[Demonologist]

I actually agree with it being a "poor man's Valiant", honestly speaking (and I'm not saying that it really bugs me, mind you), but without all the things that made Valiant fun. The 50 monsters gimmick gets old really fast and drains encounters of all that's exciting, though I'm really skeptical about limiting monster types/monster counts in general as it usually destroys potentially good gameplay, I think these are the most controversial and risky limitations to ever exist (I guess everyone remembers 1monster and mayhem13 and how stale they get after the first couple of maps). I appreciate AD79's work in terms of design, these look cool (albeit not very original, yes), and managing a megawad that doesn't look like joe-ilya's garbage can is always a fact worth admiring, but the idea behind all this has made me bored very quickly, sorry.
I sincerely wish the author luck with his future endeavours though, he's got potential in regards to competent modern mapmaking. I just hope he leaves gimmick-driven gameplay behind later on.

[AD_79]

I'll keep it in mind Demonologist, hopefully whatever I make from now on won't be quite as boring and shitty :P

[Caleb13]

So I gave this a whirl on UV in Zdoom and I came across a few problems:

-Map04: wrong textures on linedefs 462 and 787.

-Map05: it is impossible to obtain cell packs near the exit (things 193 and 194).

-Map08: once he/she drops into the exit area, the player cannot go back to collect ammo etc. before exiting.

-Map15: sector 186 shouldn't be secret.

-Map26: once the player rises lava near the exit, it is impossible to return back and explore the map.

-Map27: it seems there is unclosed sector at linedef 273.

-Map32: this map has more than 50 monsters? Boo! Also, 1 revenant (thing 267) and 1 knight (thing 172) never teleported into playable areas, probably because they're deaf.

But to be honest, the biggest drawback was how the monsters were used. For too many times, the fights devolved into "let's see how much luck will the player have against 3 archviles only with shotgun and 10 rockets in a small arena with some pillars". In fact, the latter maps reminded me of Ribbiks' archvile fetish. Fighting afrits in some small rooms was a tiresome luckfest, too. And the invisible respawning chaingunners in Map29 were utter bullshit. I must say that after I liked the 10-map beta, I was rather disappointed by the finished mapset. Oh well.

[AD_79]

I'm curious, what the hell did people like about the 10 map beta? When I look back at it all I see is shit.

[scifista42]

^ Well, I explained my reasons both now when the megawad is released (previous page) and back in the day when the 10 map beta came out (page 1).

[Nictendo]

AD_79 said:

I'm curious, what the hell did people like about the 10 map beta? When I look back at it all I see is shit.

Overall I found it was a more balanced mapset, aesthetically I prefered it before the Valiant additions/changed palette as it had a stronger identity/sense of individuality (something that has been mentioned by a lot of people at this point.)

Generally it was more safe/viable for multiple types of playthrough. In the final version I personally enjoyed more open maps like Back to Base-ics (and my 59 second UV-Pacifist WR Kappa //) and gimmick maps like The Firemen Will Not Apologize. As you saw in my stream, some maps/sections of maps were not easy to get through without some heavy save-scumming. While fun for a casual playthrough I don't think I'd want to revisit it more seriously until some balancing is done.

I'd also still like to see "Agitation Station" happen. :P

[AD_79]

I'll do my best to try and rebalance it. I feel like no one is liking the cybruisers (particularly my usage of them), should I just completely remove them from the set?

[dobu gabu maru]

Switched to beta 2.

MAP07: Wasn’t feeling this one too much. Progression is a bit confusing since there’s no noticeable landmarks and all doors—openable, locked, and closed—are all the UAC door. Combat plays well enough but ammo can get really tight—I finished the map with literally two shells lift, which meant that if I wasn’t more careful with the PEs that final vile would’ve been a bit much to bring down (I also don’t like the PEs that much as they just feel like an ammo tax). I think there should be a box of rockets behind the first vile door just in case.

MAP08: Ouch, this one put up a fight. Got caught switching weapons at the start (SSG, RL, and SG all close to each other) and ate the big one… would be nice to have the RL closer to the SSG so I don’t autoswitch when I’m trying to kill the chaingunner. The windows are well utilized here as the player has to watch nearly every angle for hitscanners and rev rockets. Also this was another bitch of an AV trap—you tend to like using them in areas with low/no cover I’m slowly realizing. Dunno how I feel about the two armors in the map… I like the one down in the nukage as it rewards players for exploring, but the second one is entirely useless if you find it… I think either the nukage one should be swapped with a berserk or something? I understand its use for the upcoming fights but it just feels pointless to get the one in the nukage in comparason. Also, good work on that tight rev battle near the end; that stuff is definitely more my style.

MAP09: This one had some fun moments. See, part of it had all the combat towards the front of the player but it challenged them by limiting ammo. The room with the SSG was one of the toughest fights so far, as you limited the player to using just rockets unless they slipped by the manc to pick up the SSG; IMO that's how you handle one-directional battles. No significant changes to speak of—generally enjoyed it all the way through.

MAP10: Glad to see a more open/nonlinear map in the set! A lot of good action and great enemy placement—the two PEs being high-priority targets is an excellent addition. Perhaps the only thing I wasn’t thrilled about was that it was kinda tough to see where the weapons were, but other than that the map was fantastic. I especially liked that loony final encounter—I was expecting a few enemies, but not a veritable cyber wall of death. No problems with the Cybruisers either... will have to see how they fare later on. A great, energetic map!

[Nictendo]

AD_79 said:

I'll do my best to try and rebalance it. I feel like no one is liking the cybruisers (particularly my usage of them), should I just completely remove them from the set?

There was some novelty to me in that I've literally never seen them before. I do like the idea of a lower-tier Cyberdemon and in some ways almost feel it would be better to replace existing usages of the Cyberdemon with a couple of them.

The problem I had with them is mostly with their placement in tight spaces as you saw on my stream in No Remorse. If anything I had more of a problem with the Afrit Barons as they feel kind of fanfic-y. Also wasn't a fan of the floating whatchacallems on Map 30 as they were literally not in any previous map and their sprites don't really fit Doom. I'd personally prefer to see normal cacos in their place.

[Caleb13]

AD_79 said:

I feel like no one is liking the cybruisers (particularly my usage of them), should I just completely remove them from the set?

Personally, I found all the new monsters unnecessary, not only the cybruisers. The main thing I liked about the 10-map demo was that it had classic (or "oldschool") look, yet you somehow made it sufficiently difficult (as modern maps are), even with the 50 monster limit. And you managed that without multiple archvile ambushes or new monsters. For example, in the new maps, some of the monsters teleporting behind my back gave me a pretty hard time, even when they were lowly demons or chaingunners. Besides, there is no rule that the maps need to be progressively more difficult (original D1 and D2 maps were rather mixed in this regard).

[4shockblast]

I don't have any problem with the new monsters; the cybruiser felt a bit out of place, perhaps, and I didn't feel that it was used too interestingly, but I didn't have much of a problem with it. I also don't mind the difficulty/archvile usage; map 11 was the only map where I felt the archviles were used too much (I think that's the one with the three archviles teleporting at the start), and I think they could be toned down there a bit, particularly the one in the long hallway with no weaponry might be too much. Possibly, the secrets in the map make it more balanced, though, I'm not sure. Also, I agree with AD that I do not see why the E1 beta is so well-liked; people are complaining about this being too similar to Valiant (and other wads), but the E1 beta had a lot of very meh maps and some were pretty much complete ripoffs. In the 32-map beta, the textures and new monsters are the same ones that are used in Valiant, sure, but the gameplay is different from the Valiant maps I played.

[Springy]

I'll be keeping my eye on this. The screenshots look absolutely, positively masturbatory worthy.

[gaspe]

To say something useful, hopefully (I state that I didn't play the 10 maps beta):
I had the feeling the the first maps were more personal. There were still some moments of "high ispiration" from other wads were but they were reworked and presented in an interesting way.
This thing started to fade when I got into E2 and E3. Overall the whole wad demostrates a really good effort and it's plenty of things that I liked, but it lacks of character. The references to other wads were kinda fun, and different styles you put show your high ability. It's like you focused a bit too much on the last 2 things rather than develop something really yours.
That said, but it depends also on what were the author's intentions :P

[4shockblast]

Rest of my FDAs: link. I was getting a bit burnt out towards the end, so I didn't play as well. Didn't finish map 29 because I was confused about what to do in the end area (I didn't realize those two pillars in the middle lowered, heh).

[Tango]

AD_79 said:

BTW, should have a small update up soon that changes some things (throwing the valiant demon and lost soul sprites out for one, as apparently it wasn't a good idea to include them :P)

imo there are assets that could well be more commonly used in pwads and while I would love to see more usage, I imagine a lot of people would have complaints about overuse. on the other hand, I myself have gotten a little tired of some of the default monster sprites (such as the demon; I think the mecha-leg demons look way cooler most of the time) and have been injecting a custom set of sprite replacements into most everything I play lately. so in a way I've started feeling like custom resources, even if the same as another popular megawad, are under-utilized. if people want to take them out they're free to do so, but imo you ought to make the wad what you want it to be, regardless of any comparisons others are drawing.

I can't say anything of the wad otherwise as I haven't played it yet, but all the screens I've seen look really nice :D

[WH-Wilou84]

AD_79 said:

I feel like no one is liking the cybruisers (particularly my usage of them), should I just completely remove them from the set?

As Tango said, you should just make the wad how you want it to be. You included this enemy for a reason, right ?

I've played through the whole thing ( ZDoom, UV, pistol start with saves, so no FDA, sorry :( ). It's pretty cool for a gimmick project.
Usually one can't do very much with such a little amount of monsters, but here you demonstrate that you could still pull out some interesting situations.

I can see where the ripoff accusations come from, as obviously E1 is very different from the rest of the set, and maybe more personal.
Besides, the homages to Valiant ( and to a lesser extent BtSX and Sunlust ) are too obvious.

The only problem I have with the Cybruiser is that he seems too fast for its sprite animation. Also its usage is sometimes cheap, for example in map 24 near the blue door, when you see a Cybruiser and then some Revenants appear right behind you to block your retreat and basically force you to either eat a rocket in the face or jump into the lava.

As for the other Dehacked monsters, they were fine to me.
It's a bit sad that you removed the Baron though... Can't help but notice it is becoming a trend in modern wads, the Baron is now deemed as "not fun to fight" and deleted entirely.

I'm not a fan of your Arch-Vile introduction in map 05. It's waiting for you on top of a lift with basically no cover, and the only way you can survive this is by running by him and rush forward into unknown territory - and possibly more trouble. Expecting all players ( including rookies ) to be able to bypass monsters like that is IMHO a poor decision.

Other that that, the wad's fun. My favorite maps are 29, 30 and 11, from what I recall. 32 looks great, but the ammo shortage at the beginning prevented me from enjoying the ride. Oh well.
You certainly have a lot of potential :)

Found a bug in map11 : you can fall in sector 274 once the platform is lowered.

[Andrea Rovenski]

I think it is silly that chaingunners do not drop chainguns, but shotgunners drop shotguns. Shouldn't they drop shells instead?

[scifista42]

^ The beautiful thing about Cyberdemon531's suggestion is that it's actually possible with DEHACKED - just exchange the spawn sprites AND spawn IDs of the respective things (shotgun and shells) and you're done, you don't even need to change any of the maps. The dropped shell pickups will only give improper amount of ammo in ZDoom-based ports, but it can be fixed via a custom DECORATE specially for these ZDoom-based ports. They might also malfunction in ZDaemon and give the player the other item than supposed to. Otherwise they should work fine. :)

[AD_79]

Cyberdemon531 said:

I think it is silly that chaingunners do not drop chainguns, but shotgunners drop shotguns. Shouldn't they drop shells instead?

I'm actually considering this.

Also thanks for the write up, Wilou, I'm making changes as I type this. No idea how I missed that in MAP11, haha, the setup has been changed so that won't happen now.

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

scifista42 said:

^ The beautiful thing about Cyberdemon531's suggestion is that it's actually possible with DEHACKED - just exchange the spawn sprites AND spawn IDs of the respective things (shotgun and shells) and you're done, you don't even need to change any of the maps. The dropped shell pickups will only give improper amount of ammo in ZDoom-based ports, but it can be fixed via a custom DECORATE specially for these ZDoom-based ports. They might also malfunction in ZDaemon and give the player the other item than supposed to. Otherwise they should work fine. :)

Here's a little mod I made a few months ago for use in my default ZDoom setup. I created a 'Bullets' sprite and re-defined the 4 Possessed Human types to all drop Ammo, not Weapons. The following now always have these values:

Bullets - 5
Clip - 10
Shell - 4
Chaingun - 20
Shotgun - 8

http://www.mediafire.com/download/z79if6rckb3yw3w/AmmoDropFix.zip

I also re-defined Arachnos to drop a 'Minicell' of value 10, but I didn't include that patch here. That actually changes monster behavior and this mod only adjusts dropped items back to what, I think, id originally intended, but changed at the last minute. Otherwise there would be no need to have Shotgun/Chaingun pickups in a map when you could just grab a dropped one instead. But every original Doom map has a weapon pickup.

Edit: It's in the readme, but I should also say here: It does not play nice with a new monster re-defined in Dehacked using the WolfSS. I told Obsidian that in one of his maps the monster stood up, shouted "Schutzstaffel!" and died from one rocket.

[Memfis]

Will this have an ENDOOM screen?

[AD_79]

Memfis said:

Will this have an ENDOOM screen?

If I can learn how to make one, then yes! I'll definitely look into it.

[kingXspian]

I have a question about the 50monsters.wad. The game did work on Zandronum but I could not get the 50monb2a.deh in game. Could anyone tell me how to get it to work? Thanks :)

[NinjaLiquidator]

Nice maps, btw I have done midi for Map08:

http://uloz.to/xYuemKQp/map08-mid

Btw I am follower of Chaingunners not dropping Chainguns.

[xAn]

Now this is fun. :)

Great work.

[Deadwing]

I'm having lots of fun with the first levels on beta 2. It might remember Valiant, but the levels are shorter, which is certainly a + for me. (some valiant levels were way too big which made me lose interest)

[scifista42]

Deadwing said:

It might remember Valiant, but the levels are shorter, which is certainly a + for me. (some valiant levels were way too big which made me lose interest)

Funnily enough, for me this is one of the reasons why I preferred Valiant and lost interest in 50 Monsters.

[Andrea Rovenski]

Why call it 50 monsters if not all the maps have 50 monsters?

[baja blast rd.]

The levels occasionally have directly placed lost souls, afaik.

[Dime]

nice job on the megawad PS. I can agree with some of the complaints brought up in this thread, but I still think you brought some cool ideas to the table.

Keep on mapping!