50 Monsters - on idgames!

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP11: Aha, looks like my theory on your use of archviles was mostly correct! #1 and #4 are in some tricky spots, though you can at least camp #1. #4 (the one in the blood tunnel with the imps) is real tricky to fight unless you just push past the imps, grab the box of rockets, eat the blast, and then kill him ASAP. I’m not sure that’s something you need to change as much as it’s just a really strict timing/execution problem that may rile some players.

Other than that, this was a really great map. I say this partially because the AVs are far and away my favorite Doom enemy to fight (I probably like them as much as Suitepee hates revenants)—and you do some really great stuff here making lower tier units their backup rather than the typical noble or rev—but also because visually it’s really impressive. The obsidian ground, crimson roof, and ornamental decorations of ashen structures in the distance really help the map to pop and standout. While black & red is a typical hell scheme, mixing in some white assets gives the map more than a typical “hell” feel. Some fantastic and elegant work here AD.

MAP12: Uh this one is alright; not nearly as impactful as the last map. I think some of its hohum quality is due to the drab/simple texturing, as the beige color really isn’t eye catching. The snowy exterior contrasts the glum interiors beautifully, but it still doesn’t detract from the fact that rooms like this are pretty boring—I think what you need there is more lighting contrast, or for something other than the RROCK ceiling (the wood ceiling could alternatively be changed out).

Gameplay is also pretty straightforward too. Gone is your really devious enemy placement like in the uncompromising MAP08; the map relies on the high health of its bulky enemies, which doesn’t make the gunplay all that exciting. Honestly, handing the player the SSG before the tele to the YK would be a good idea, as the rest of the map speeds up considerably from it—the only fight that would suffer potentially is the AV one, but that’s simple enough if you conserve rockets anyway.

MAP13: How come the metal rivets are only on one side of the starting switch???

Anyway, this is a better flowing map than the last one (possibly because of the inclusion of the SSG!). Combat is exciting but not too taxing, and I like the PE use as harassment here. Probably the best part about is that ammo is tight, meaning that the player can’t really afford to miss shots or whiff with rockets. Great flow and architecture here too.

MAP14: Ahh you did it again!: you locked the starting door so I couldn’t go back for the medikit! It’s not a terrible sin but it can be vexing for the player, as they naturally expect that door to open both ways. The medikit loss was more important here because you put some chaingunners on some ledges that I wasn’t quick to react to, keeping me at a paltry 50% nearly the entire map (I did run into some rev rockets too of course :P). The main gimmick of this map was pretty cool—how you’d run back to open key doors and find the water depleted—though I don’t think the gameplay was as good as MAP13… central to this one was just chaingunners and revenants harassing you from start to finish. Still a good map, just more creative in design than combat.

[Breezeep]

Yeah, I don't like map12 too much, I might replace it sometime.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP15: Oh, it’s been a while since I’ve died in less than five seconds multiple times in a row. This was about the first time in the wad I felt it was a bit unfair, as you hand the player only the SG and expect them to push up an alcove with multiple chaingunners and rev rockets on their tail—honestly, it’s another case where I think the SSG would improve it immensely, as not killing the chaingunners in one shot when you’re clambering up the cliffside can be disheartening and deadly. Otherwise, this map was really cool; I like how the main design of the map is running up the coiling cliff twice over, with different monsters each time. The first time is a bit soured by the start but the second was a lot of fun with the PEs harassing you as you try to deal with the revs below—I wound up fleeing all the way to the blue key area, which just made things worse (and more fun!) Probably my favorite of E2 thus far (plus I like all those purple lights)

MAP31: Hmmm not really feeling this one. The one thing I thought was clever was teleporting the cyber to the central area, but otherwise it wasn’t all the exciting. Definitely felt like another old map, with its orthogonal shape and the kinda strange monster placement (at one point I had a rev, manc, and arachnatron all in a conga line attacking each other). Architecture was alright, though it didn’t really have that strong of a flourish… I dunno what else. Wouldn’t mind seeing it replaced (I could help out if you want)

MAP32: Oh damn, and I thought MAP15’s start was brutal! At least with this one you have a couple of options up your sleeve and more room to move, rather than crossing your fingers and hoping the chaingunners don’t tear you to shreds. Anyway, this map is a technical marvel—though I’d expect no less from the names attached to it—and features some pretty tough gameplay… I’d argue it’s probably the most ruthless of the set thus far. Only major problem I had came at the area with the Rocket Launcher. My ammo was really low by that point and the amount of monsters (plus that accursed AV) kept stirring up all kinds of trouble, keeping me from noticing the RL. I think maybe a couple more shells down there would be generous. Otherwise, no noticeable problems or gameplay things need tweaking.

MAP16: This is another good one—I suppose I’m partial towards the red/black/white color scheme :P. I like the precipice design here and how dangerous the whole map feels, though there are a couple monster placements that I take issue with. First off, that PE is terrible. The map’s pace is already at a crawl due to the perched enemies and ledges, but the PE grinds progress to a halt as you sit in the back and wait for him to come to you—a cacodemon would be way better and allow the player to keep moving. Second is that that fight for the red key (the one with the three mancs) absolutely does not need that cybruiser there. It’s hard enough trying to kill the mancs before the revs warp in, and all the cybruiser does is crush the player as soon as he appears. Maybe make him a caco too! Lastly, I like the AV that teleports away from the red key door as soon as you open it as it’s something you don’t expect, but I don’t think he goes far enough… it’s too easy to backpedal and then just rocket your problems away. Perhaps allowing him to warp inside the room or further back behind the player would spice things up.

Cool map nonetheless. Really loved the upside-down marbfaces—looked gnarly.

[dobu gabu maru]

MAP17: Hmmmmmm a bit of a sterile design in this one. Once again a lot of the combat is directly ahead of the player and not all that interesting, until you enter into that cool eastern arena. The red key fight in particular is kinda dull, as you sit there and shoot the PE and let the monsters infight below—getting the player down into the water quicker (like warping in an HK next to them) would help a lot. I’m also concerned with the dual AVs that warp in towards the end as if the player blows their rockets on the previous fight, but perhaps they’ll be wise enough not to do that. Not a bad map but certainly not exemplary.

MAP18: I like this one. It has a lot of action and promotes a lot of movement, giving you higher-end weapons to take out the baddies with. It also has a lot of health (which I always appreciate as a sloppy player) and had some good encounters with the cybruisers. Still haven’t been having a problem with them outside that one part in MAP16; I quite like having a low tier rocket-flinging demon to give me heart palpitations now and then. Only issue here is that I never found the chaingun (is there one on the map? There’s clips placed around so I dunno)

MAP19: This one was pretty tense. From a glance it seems like another standard map, but starving the player of ammo at the start changes the map’s dynamic completely, forcing the player out into the winter wilderness as they scrounge around for munitions. I skirted past most of the enemies and jumped down into the northern arena, and pretty much danced around all the enemies until they were busy infighting. I personally feel the map is a little too reliant on revs for pressure—as they provide most of the headaches here—but the arachs are used well as perched supression and the couple of chaingunners here do pose a threat to the player. Great map though… the exit corridor was giving me BTSX hub vibes.

MAP20: Yay, an arena-style map! Boo, Afrits! Opinion is generally split on Afrits and I fall into the “they’re bad” camp, as they’re too sturdy and their attack is too wide to be a flying target that can easily wander off to the corner of the map. Luckily you decreased their health so they’re not nearly as unbreakable, but it can still get pretty hairy with them. I’m of two minds on this map though… on one hand I died a bunch and really struggled with the part where the AVs come down to wreck shop… and on the other, I replayed the map and completed the whole arena battle on my first go. So I suppose foreknowledge helps a lot more in this map than any others.

MAP21: Oooh a good E3 start here—the blue CRACKLE is really eye-catching. There’s a decent amount of room to scoot around in so the dry ammo at the start isn’t really a problem. Ammo throughout the whole map is pretty well (read: stingily) balanced, pushing the player to pick priority targets with the SSG and punch out fools wherever they can. It was funny seeing the red key pedestal and knowing a donut-tagged trap awaited me. Good work overall on this one.

MAP22: Ooh this is a bloody little skirmish here. The map is small and concise with few breaks between rooms, leading to a lot of bloodshed on both the demon’s and player's part. While I felt that the monster composition was par for the course (high focus on revs, hitscanners perched to prove as nuisances, a PE or two float in to become high-priority targets), I’d say the standout monster here was the cacodemon for ALWAYS GETTING IN MY WAY. Seriously, so many of them would drift in and meddle in my infighting or sniping that they felt like an honest & nasty threat. Also props on not using an AV, as his inclusion would’ve felt very natural but sometimes it’s best to savor his use.

MAP23: Good to see the map skewed towards encounters as the last two maps felt a tad similar. However this map abandons all hope of playing fair and really aims to kill you, combining tight space with some really nasty enemies. The AV room is by far the worst of the bunch, with the two HKs easily being able to corner you if you go for the SSG too early and the AV having plenty of room to blast your ass while the HKs soak damage. I’m generally a fan of this type of gameplay but I think it might be a little too brutal for this wad’s pace, especially since no other fight on the map gave me this much grief… perhaps the AV could come down a few seconds later? Everything else went more smoothly, although the Afrit fighting you in such a small space can be an agitating affair. I thought it was clever how the RL was entirely optional. I also like the use of METAL textured structures here, as there haven’t been too many boxy shapes in the wad thus far.

MAP24: Ahhhh this one wasn’t that fun. It’s starts off as another “run for your armaments” map with perched revs volleying rockets at you from afar. Surprisingly, I do approve with the Afrit use here, as he hovers at such an angle that you can easily dodge his attack, unlike the tight space of MAP20/23. However the cybruisers were too obnoxious here—the first two fight you in a cramped cavern where a rev is already pressure enough, and the only solution I found is just to run away as fast as you can. The two placed behind the blue door are a dick move only because of that rev that warps in behind the player to stop them from backpedaling (and that PE only slows fighting down, because no way in hell is the player gonna stay on the bridge and try it fight it while two insta-death machines can fire at them). Honestly just having two cybruisers there is more than enough (I also feel like the following arena is more suited for them than that cliffside cavern). Other than that, it’s a map that doesn’t feel entirely distinctive compared to the rest of E3 so far… the rocket-oriented start is probably the most unique thing it has going for it.

MAP25: Oh some variation, great! The texture scheme changes to some dingy grays and the map opens up for some nonlinear, key collecting carnage (this is the first nonlinear map in a long while). I was getting some Unholy Realms vibes from this (a good thing) and enjoyed the explosive finale, even if circle strafing solved a lot of the problems there. That start though… jeeeesus that’s not fun. The biggest offender is that splash damage is more likely to kill you than the rockets themselves—I highly recommend changing the cybruiser out for an HK, as having two rocket-wielding demons in such a tight space is overly cruel.

MAP26: Ouch. MAP11’s AV gimmick has been condensed into a tiny room here, and it’s not a kind one. Only having three spots to hide from the AVs while gathering supplies littered about the map is a dangerous challenge, but it’s quite fun as you have a lot of room and opportunities to direct the fight. But that chaingunner? Seriously? The one overlooking the eastern ridge? Fuck that. It’s bad enough that I have to keep track of three monsters blurring my vision, but when I suddenly start to rapidly lose health because of a chaingunner I can’t even see in my periphery, you know it’s bullshit. Absolutely get rid of him. I’m also not entirely keen on the last two revs guarding the AV for the final encounter—I think it’s a really dastardly and smart combination of enemies (AV perched above, Afrit from one side and cacos/PE from the other), but it just took forever to grind down the AV from below, especially when the revs would get in the way, soak up the bullets, die, then get resurrected.

Other than that, the map plays (mostly) well (I think the post RK AVs are a little much too, as that fight has kinda already been done before). Leaning more into the blue CRACKLE is kinda what I wanted from you for E3, as a lot of it has been nondescript caverns with red sky looming above. Actually feeling like the player is venturing underground with this one enhances the atmosphere and helps separate it from the rest despite the similar cavern textures. Overall it’s a good one that really soured my mood due to that lone chaingunner.

MAP27: This one was pretty cool—concise, exact, and brutal. It has more of the boxy and interconnected design from E1 that I feel has been absent thus far, mixing it up with some devious scuffles. The fight against the two AVs before getting the SSG from the lift is a bit “ehhhh” as the best tactic you have is to kill the arach and then just suppress from the bottom of the stairs (as the balcony above gets swarmed too easily)… I think maybe doing 1 AV there could allow the player to handle the fight however they wish, as opposed to just using the safe stair strat. The other two fights are a lot of fun though—the final in particular is quite merciless until you work out how to move about the arena so as not to get sandwiched by cacos. I’m not thrilled about the somewhat off combination of the pale bricks, meal textures and light trimmings (I just don't think they meld cleanly), but at least the gameplay made up for it.

MAP28: Uhhh wasn’t quite expecting a map like this. The only thing I think that I’ll bring up is that in the BK area the second wave of archviles warps in too quickly, as you have to be on top of that first wave or you’re guaranteed to die. Other than that, I didn’t really like it—felt like more of an RNG version of MAP27, as there’s so many opportunities for you to get destroyed instantly that it doesn’t feel like there’s any sense to it IMO. Plus some of the only viable solutions I found were to sit in a corner and pick away at enemies, which is never fun.

MAP29: Damn this was a sleek map. Could possibly be because the color scheme is inspired by Sunlust, but I think most of the colors/visuals work well here nevertheless. We get another good dose of nonlinearity and all 3 arenas are a joy to struggle through—I quite liked the manc area for how open and chaotic it was. The last battle feels kinda like another RNG roll for the AVs to target you only one at a time while the cybs do their thing, but it was nowhere near as baffling as the start of MAP28. I had no problem whatsoever with the invisible chaingunners. Another favorite of mine from the set!

MAP30: Hmmm it’s an interesting boss level with some stellar visuals (really like the gradual fade on the rock textures), but gameplay was kinda all over the place. The blue key fight didn’t feel like it needed the extra AV to warp in at the other end of the arena (the cyber applies enough pressure to that zone as is), and the last fight is a bit of a mess… the AVs warp in quickly and can be easy to whiff cell on due to the other enemies in the area, which pretty much makes your whole goal to sit next to the Overlord and just spam cell. I actually tried doing it the “normal” way by taking out the other enemies first and ran out of cell, and since the Overlord is content with hovering I couldn’t even get him low enough to punch him… so I had to redo the fight. My second attempt at bumrushing the Overlord was a success and it’s startling how simple it is to just apply pressure to his face and pick up the megasphere when you get wounded. I definitely don’t feel 2 of the AVs are required (the latter half of E3 is stacked with them as is)… I wouldn’t mind cybruisers in their place (though perhaps others would complain :P)

Overall, 50 Monsters is a barrel ‘o fun. I’d still contest that the Valiant comparisons are kinda thin as, other than similar design quirks, the gameplay is wildly different due to the constraints (and skillsaw doesn’t make any maps as grueling as 50's MAP27/28). If there’s one thing that bugs me it’s what gaspe brought up—monster use feels very “samey” throughout the maps. Of course there’s some noticeable exceptions in some of the maps, but most of the latter episodes are very dependent on using PEs as distractions and AVs just to make things harder. Granted they work well at that, but it didn’t feel as inspired or crafty as some of the other fights in the set (like the invis-manc battle in MAP29 or HK sandwich in MAP27) and struck me as… purposely obnoxious. It’s still a phenomenal set though, as it can be difficult attempting to make 32 different maps that all have to be a scant 50 monsters (er, 31 maps), and for the most part you show a great level of flexibility and skill. I’m definitely interested in seeing a longer map done by you, no matter how impossible that may seem!

[joe-ilya]

http://www.twitch.tv/joe_ilya

Streaming this wad.

[AD_79]

dobu gabu maru said:

Overall, 50 Monsters is a barrel ‘o fun. I’d still contest that the Valiant comparisons are kinda thin as, other than similar design quirks, the gameplay is wildly different due to the constraints (and skillsaw doesn’t make any maps as grueling as 50's MAP27/28). If there’s one thing that bugs me it’s what gaspe brought up—monster use feels very “samey” throughout the maps. Of course there’s some noticeable exceptions in some of the maps, but most of the latter episodes are very dependent on using PEs as distractions and AVs just to make things harder. Granted they work well at that, but it didn’t feel as inspired or crafty as some of the other fights in the set (like the invis-manc battle in MAP29 or HK sandwich in MAP27) and struck me as… purposely obnoxious. It’s still a phenomenal set though, as it can be difficult attempting to make 32 different maps that all have to be a scant 50 monsters (er, 31 maps), and for the most part you show a great level of flexibility and skill. I’m definitely interested in seeing a longer map done by you, no matter how impossible that may seem!

Thanks for all the feedback, dobu! I've already made some changes and will continue to do so, an update -should- be up by Friday.

[AD_79]

As promised, here's a Beta 2B. This is mainly balance changes, I haven't gotten everything done in that regard but it should be a little better now.

note: the credit lump mentions a text file that doesn't exist yet; it'll be made soon-ish!

[joe-ilya]

I agree with dobu's overall opinion, I'll rate this 3/5, an avarage wad with a clever limitation that gets more stale as you progress, and after beating the wad you feel like "phew finally got through this" instead of "what a fun experience, it was fun while it lasted"

[Suitepee]

http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/v/27018625 = part 1 of my playthrough, covering maps 01-15 plus both secret maps. (UV, pistol starts)

Good so far, bar one trap in map 11 I'm not entirely convinced about. (the one in the blood pit after the double Archvile shut in) Nice details present throughout the levels, good choice of 90's wad music at times, and mostly fun to play. Seems AD79 isn't too shy about being a bit dickish at times, mind you!

[Suitepee]

http://www.twitch.tv/johnsuitepee/v/27190160 = part 2 of my playthrough, covering maps 16-30 plus bonus maps 33 & 35. (UV, pistol starts)

4 out of 5 from me in summary, and I place my vote for AD79 under the Cacoward of Most Promising Newcomer. Fast, fun, difficult in mostly the right way and great visual detail/variety.

Found a bug on map 25 where the wooden barriers are already in place before you enter the room with the Cyb/HK rotation tomfoolery.
Also it seems maps 33 & 35 don't allow for saving (or music); loading them up crashes GZDoom at least.

I expect great things from AD79 in the future, and I also wouldn't be surprised if he embraced his more dickish difficult side of things and became the next Ribbiks/Joshy type mapper. (high detail, high difficulty)

[Tango]

forgot to mention before, I believe one of the frames your yellow liquid flats has a stray purple pixel in it or something

[AD_79]

Tango said:

forgot to mention before, I believe one of the frames your yellow liquid flats has a stray purple pixel in it or something

HUH, never saw that before. Fixed!

Suitepee said:

4 out of 5 from me in summary, and I place my vote for AD79 under the Cacoward of Most Promising Newcomer. Fast, fun, difficult in mostly the right way and great visual detail/variety.

Found a bug on map 25 where the wooden barriers are already in place before you enter the room with the Cyb/HK rotation tomfoolery.
Also it seems maps 33 & 35 don't allow for saving (or music); loading them up crashes GZDoom at least.

I expect great things from AD79 in the future, and I also wouldn't be surprised if he embraced his more dickish difficult side of things and became the next Ribbiks/Joshy type mapper. (high detail, high difficulty)

Thanks for the playthrough, Suite! I have no idea how MAP25 broke (maybe I accidentally did that when fixing stuff after TNS). Also, definitely fixing up various issues; ex. MAP11 and that one trigger, and maybe softening that part up a little.

BTW, if you're seriously nominating me, do it in the cacowards thread ;)

Final release should happen soon enough!

[AD_79]

"Final release should happen soon enough!"

Oh, how optimistic you were, previous-year me! Look where you are now, it's 2016 and you still haven't booted this thing out the door.

So uh I pretty much lost all interest in the project up until now. I'm only back to it because dobu mentioned one of the maps in another thread. So here's a lazy beta 3. I'm honestly not sure how much has changed since last time, though I don't think much has changed. Gonna have a final run-through on the weekend to see if there's anything critical I missed, fix some issues relating to the custom sprites in vanilla and ship it off to idgames. I don't have the willpower to replace MAP31, unfortunately.

Looking back through this thread (in particular, the 2014 posts), I feel like I owe those of you who thought that E1 would be much more representative of the final product an apology. I should have tried to keep it more consistent and less "oh partway through it changes over to a more ""modern"" thing and what is this, this is not what I ordered" deal, and for that, I'm sorry it turned out this way. I'll make it up to you guys, promise!

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

BTW, there still isn't music for MAP08. I saw NinjaLiquidator posted a midi for it on the previous page. I didn't listen to it, so I can't comment as to quality. Jus' mentionin'

[AD_79]

EffinghamHuffnagel said:

BTW, there still isn't music for MAP08. I saw NinjaLiquidator posted a midi for it on the previous page. I didn't listen to it, so I can't comment as to quality. Jus' mentionin'

I think Alfonzo had a track in the works for it at one point (correct me if I'm wrong, Fonz). On the flipside of things, the default track actually does fit the map rather nicely, imo.

[an_mutt]

AD_79 said:

I don't have the willpower to replace MAP31, unfortunately.

You're looking for a replacement Map 31, huh?

[AD_79]

Well, I suppose if you're offering, I won't say no! I'd be interested to see what you cook up : >

[Crunchynut44]

I feel as though this WAD is getting more hate than it deserves, whether or not there are Skillsaw similarities the levels are still extremely gorgeous, have beautiful interweaving layouts and are full of extremely entertaining fights especially considering the monster limit. The maps manage to be extremely detailed despite not going overboard with sector detailing (something I personally try very hard to do with my own maps) and the overall architecture had me in awe most of the time. As I said the layouts are very interconnected, and this made the game play very thrilling as I found myself constantly moving. My only gripes would be that I found some fights a little bit too claustrophobic with addition to being under-equipped compared to the monster tier (shotgun vs hell kights in small contained areas arent that fun).

I like that there is no set theme for the episodes as well, I enjoy having a different experience each map and as per a level by level basis each map theme was pulled off really well.

Im also a big fan of the colour palette and music choices, all these additions are things a adore personally. I am however indifferent to the monster additions, as to say I wouldn't mind if they were there or they weren't. They did however add some variety, but the stock line up has plenty imo.

Overall a really great WAD that will be a permanent resident along with the likes of Scythe, Valiant etc.

[Katamori]

I can still remember when I watched you on Twitch making MAP29, so I made a quick look. Used to be skeptical a bit, but I'm pleasantly disappointed: YOU ARE AMAZING!

Especially kudos for the Philosopher's Stone map (which invariably reminds me of Fullmetal Alchemist somehow - were you inspired by that?), and the final one (for the amazing use of fake fog effect)

About the hate: AD_79 combines various styles in a new, interesting, and a bit unique way, so he deserves the respect! I have no idea who makes shitstorm on it (if there's anyone at all), but stop immediately; AD_79 may not be revolutionary but he sure did a great WAD with OBVIOUSLY huge effort!

[savagegrant]

I'm loving this set. It's my kind of WAD. :D

[Lingyan203]

Any idea when a beta4 or final (idgames) version b out? I'm quite anxious to play and record this!

[AD_79]

Oof, I let this slide far down. Other projects getting in the way as usual :x uhh I think I'll be able to get a final version up within a month, most likely less though.

Mutt's been working on a MAP31 replacement, which btw is a very cool map. I think it just needs some visual and gameplay adjustments for it to be done. When that's done, the wad will be updated. Sorry to keep you waiting so long!

[Lingyan203]

Nice! Will there be a new music placement for map08? I haven't played the current map31 yet but what's wrong with the old map31? Just asking.

[AD_79]

Lingyan203 said:

Nice! Will there be a new music placement for map08? I haven't played the current map31 yet but what's wrong with the old map31? Just asking.

-probably yes (EDIT: got a track in place, huge thanks to Alfonzo!)

-old MAP31 is one of the weakest maps in the set IMO, not much interesting about it and it's not really deserving of a secret map slot

[Lingyan203]

Oh nice! What's the track being used for map08?

[AD_79]

Lingyan203 said:

Oh nice! What's the track being used for map08?

Hmm, suppose I should have made that a bit more clear. Alfonzo finished off a wip track of his for use in the set.

[Lingyan203]

Hi, sorry to bump the thread again or be annoying. Is this project still going on or is it dead?

[AD_79]

It's not dead, that's for sure. It's mainly just a matter of "when do I feel like getting back to it", as I've been working on a lot of other stuff instead. I'll try and get it done soon though.

[Lingyan203]

ah, fair enough. Take your time.

[AD_79]

It took long enough, but 50 Monsters is now on idgames.