[Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Achievement Ideas? (p13)

[D00mJedi]

29 minutes ago, Phobus said:

William J Blaskowicz is Jewish - in the modern games it's brought up often, but I think it was a stated fact back in the Wolf3D days as well.

Ok, if it's true - will stay corrected and remove it from original post.
Still, he is clearly fictional, with everything related to his lore.

[SP_FACE1]

On 7/12/2020 at 3:34 PM, Tormentor667 said:

playable from the beginning to the end now.

 

I tried to play it through but the next mission after Dachau was not playable. The mission briefing had missing dialog and the map itself (C3M0_A) had incomplete resources, buildings and enemies. I was running version fd5d55582c402b29144e5f93b1e1acc364546498.

 

I'm going to play episode 3 more than once anyway so I don't mind playing it in a beta state but it seems it simply was not ready for playtesting (or playthrough testing).

 

The Dachau mission was very well done. I guess some people will get offended by it no matter what you do. The most disturbing parts were the actual historical photographs. I hope nobody wants to start censoring history books.

[Tormentor667]

53 minutes ago, SP_FACE1 said:

 

I tried to play it through but the next mission after Dachau was not playable. The mission briefing had missing dialog and the map itself (C3M0_A) had incomplete resources, buildings and enemies. I was running version fd5d55582c402b29144e5f93b1e1acc364546498.

 

Well, I should have said it, that the C3M0_A mission is still under development, so I'd suggest not (!) collecting all clues and then proceeding with C3M2 :) Thanks for the kind feedback though!

[Oxyde]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:34 PM, Tormentor667 said:

One of the bigger remaining tasks though is the localization of all language strings we have. There is already a team of translators working on a Google spreadsheet that we've prepared but if you (or anyone else you know who is a native speaker of spanish, italian, german, russian, turkish or franch) might be interested in helping out, let us know and drop us a line.

I just submitted a few lines for the French translation earlier on (and noticed you comitted the changes already). I'll send more when I have more time!

[D00mJedi]

16 hours ago, Oxyde said:

I just submitted a few lines for the French translation earlier on (and noticed you comitted the changes already). I'll send more when I have more time!

Thank you so much.
I did my part on "russian" department, with huge help from russian Doom community - and N00b2015 in particular.
Some other languages are not doing...well so far, every help is very much welcomed.

[Tormentor667]

The page got a nice overhaul for the design,
nothing too fancy, but it resembles the ingame graphics much more to make the whole project fit together. There is also some more content to discover on the page, so have fun discovering it!

 

Link: https://boa.realm667.com

[Tormentor667]

We've come a long way
Comparison shots of the allied headquarter from the beta (left) and the current development version of Chapter 3 (right).

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

Looks great. Not a fan of the concentration camp idea though. It always ends up over dramatized, exploitive, or mentioned and then swept under the rug. COD WW2 ending is a big offender here in all three areas. I'm sorry, but I don't think that's what anyone expects out of this project, and it seems terribly, terribly inappropriate. Blade of Agony was something I have always thought of as a fun mix between modern and classic Wolfenstein/FPS games. You can't switch gears to that extent at the last minute and expect anything good to happen. To be honest, even the idea of it I find offensive. It's something that should be in a totally different project. 

 

I want you to take a look at this gameplay

 

Now, ask yourself:

 

"Do I really feel it is appropriate and respectful to try to make a point about the holocaust and Jewish suffering in a game where you go around collecting treasure, bonking cartoon nazis with shovels, and shooting at giant scorpions?"

 

@Tormentor667 I have loved your work from the beginning, but I just want you to stop and ask yourself if you really think this is a good idea. I edited this comment because I was probably a little too harsh last night (and a little too stoned). But personally, I still don't think it to be a good idea, even if you have good intentions, which I'm sure you do.  

Edited October 4, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[jazzmaster9]

11 hours ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

"Do I really feel it is appropriate and respectful to try to make a point about the holocaust and Jewish suffering in a game where you go around collecting treasure, bonking cartoon nazis with shovels, and shooting at giant scorpions?"

 

I believe the concentration camp idea has already been discussed by the team in the ZDoom thread so, no use trying to have them remove that entire section.

 

In a time where most AAA companies try to shy away from even showing a Swastika, this is a breath of fresh air.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

34 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

 

I believe the concentration camp idea has already been discussed by the team in the ZDoom thread so, no use trying to have them remove that entire section.

 

In a time where most AAA companies try to shy away from even showing a Swastika, this is a breath of fresh air.

I don't have a problem with the idea, I have a problem with the idea being implemented in a Doom wad that takes place in a universe where you collect treasure and shoot at giant scorpions. You play as a character that kills mecha-hitlers. Context is important when it comes to these things. Would it be appropriate if I made a Duke Nukem mod where you spend the first two episodes shooting at anthropomorphic pigs, only to change gears at the last minute and try to incorporate themes of racial injustice?

Rule no.1 when incorporating sensitive topics: sensitivity.

 

I'm not saying anything should be removed, I'm giving feedback. And my feedback is that the idea is insensitive.

 

I don't have a problem with things like Sonder, which is something that was created for a specific purpose. Even the new Wolfenstein games, with their hamfisted "philosophical" ideas still worked with a script that was written with those ideas in mind. This wad is a different story. It's something personal to me, and I find it offensive.

 

If you want to make a wad, about the holocaust and Jewish suffering, by all means do it. But don't tack it on at the last minute in a project like this.

 

 

 

From the project's website:

 

"C3M1: Concentration camp (normal gameplay, first discovery of the zombies and how they were produced"

 

Doesn't scream good taste to me.

Edited October 4, 2020 by TheMagicMushroomMan

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

 

If you want to make a wad, about the holocaust and Jewish suffering, by all means do it. But don't tack it on at the last minute in a project like this.

Hmm any sources about how this was a "tacked in last minute"

 

But anyway. Im not involved with the development here so we'll wait for Torms response.

 

But I for one don't see the issue with adding in something Nazi's have been known for for decades. Human experimentation being one of them.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

12 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Hmm any sources about how this was a "tacked in last minute"

 

But anyway. Im not involved with the development here so we'll wait for Torms response.

 

But I for one don't see the issue with adding in something Nazi's have been known for for decades. Human experimentation being one of them.

 

I'm not insinuating that the concept of the map itself was tacked-on at the last minute, I'm saying the map is tacked-on to the end of the experience. If you've played COD WW2, the same thing happened. Right at the end of the game they switch gears to a concentration camp in a half-assed, insulting, melodramatic way, doing nothing but playing sad music and showing pictures of the holocaust while you shoot nazis (in slow motion of course) who are holding your Jewish comrade hostage, with no discussion or thought behind it. When you do the same thing to a game that is about five percent as serious as COD (not that any COD is anywhere near an accurate representation of history), with zombies and big scorpions running around, it makes it even worse. If you're going to tackle serious subject matter, take it seriously, that's all I have to say. Don't bolt it on to a project like this.

 

Like @Scuba Steve said, it's a fine line to walk, and I don't feel this is the right project to probe at that line.

[jazzmaster9]

Well the final say is gonna be with the Torm so lets just wait for the response.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

2 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Well the final say is gonna be with the Torm so lets just wait for the response.

I want Torm to do what Torm wants to do. No response is needed, it's just my feedback. I'm not saying he has bad intentions.

[Tormentor667]

On 10/4/2020 at 11:25 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

 

@Tormentor667 I have loved your work from the beginning, but I just want you to stop and ask yourself if you really think this is a good idea. I edited this comment because I was probably a little too harsh last night (and a little too stoned). But personally, I still don't think it to be a good idea, even if you have good intentions, which I'm sure you do.  

 

 

Thanks kindly for your reply and your thoughts about the controversity of the death camp in Blade of Agony. I know about these concerns already, we talked about it in our development team for a while already (mostly due to experiences @doomjedi has made with Soner) and I also had a long conversation with @Scuba Steve in private where we made a lot of changes and decisions towards the operation.

 

What I want to tell you: We didn't add the concentration camp for publicity, and it wasn't a spontaneous idea that arose during the development of Chapter 3. I already had that in mind for a long time and began the development of it in early 2018.

 

Blade of Agony is a fictional scenario based on historic events. We have battlefields in the center of Germany, we have a D-Day operation in the Normandy, and yes, we have an operation that is placed at a death camp. From this point of view, we see the settings very objective. What we mostly want to have is a huge variety of places to visit and scenarios for an entertaining gameplay.

 

To make sure that this isn't turning into a tasteless treasure hunt and slaughterhouse, we adjusted the place in many points to avoid any problems when it comes to sensitivity, so let me explain this further:

• The concentration camp is fictional (placed in a fictional town in Germany), no direct historical connection
• The prisoners are war prisoners (we avoid to use the term 'Jews' in this context)
• The graphic style is narrowed (less vibrant colors, some kind of a 'Schindler's List' approach)
• The mission is about freeing the prisoners and uncovering a fictional biochemical weapon that is developed in an underground laboratory
• The prisoners mostly can't be killed (instead they hide or take cover)

We are aware that this mission still has a certain controversity, but remember: You are the good guy, and we made sure that difficult aspects of this place have been taken care of with the highest sensitivity and respect that we could do and I think we managed it.

 

Thanks kindly for your feedback!

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

3 minutes ago, Tormentor667 said:

 

Thanks kindly for your reply and your thoughts about the controversity of the death camp in Blade of Agony. I know about these concerns already, we talked about it in our development team for a while already (mostly due to experiences @doomjedi has made with Soner) and I also had a long conversation with @Scuba Steve in private where we made a lot of changes and decisions towards the operation.

 

What I want to tell you: We didn't add the concentration camp for publicity, and it wasn't a spontaneous idea that arose during the development of Chapter 3. I already had that in mind for a long time and began the development of it in early 2018.

 

Blade of Agony is a fictional scenario based on historic events. We have battlefields in the center of Germany, we have a D-Day operation in the Normandy, and yes, we have an operation that is placed at a death camp. From this point of view, we see the settings very objective. What we mostly want to have is a huge variety of places to visit and scenarios for an entertaining gameplay.

 

To make sure that this isn't turning into a tasteless treasure hunt and slaughterhouse, we adjusted the place in many points to avoid any problems when it comes to sensitivity, so let me explain this further:

• The concentration camp is fictional (placed in a fictional town in Germany), no direct historical connection
• The prisoners are war prisoners (we avoid to use the term 'Jews' in this context)
• The graphic style is narrowed (less vibrant colors, some kind of a 'Schindler's List' approach)
• The mission is about freeing the prisoners and uncovering a fictional biochemical weapon that is developed in an underground laboratory
• The prisoners mostly can't be killed (instead they hide or take cover)

We are aware that this mission still has a certain controversity, but remember: You are the good guy, and we made sure that difficult aspects of this place have been taken care of with the highest sensitivity and respect that we could do and I think we managed it.

 

Thanks kindly for your feedback!

Alright, that second point is pretty important. After CoD WW2's holocaust ending, and the new Wolfenstein games focusing on race, and another person above saying that the map features actual historical photographs, I was imaging a scenario where you go into an actual Jewish concentration camp and get bombarded with pictures of emaciated prisoners. I don't have a problem with a fictional death camp map in general, like the one in The New Order. As long as it's not trying to be a historical depiction of the holocaust that tries to use suffering for shock value/entertainment, it's probably okay. And if you want to make a map/wad that does attempt to deal with those things, that's also okay, I was just saying I don't think that kind of situation would have been appropriate for Wolfendoom. I think the ending of CoD really pissed me off, between how it was shoehorned in at the end of the game for pure heroic/jingoistic entertainment purposes , and that some people thought it was a good depiction. The developers didn't do enough to make it an accurate representation of suffering, they did just enough to make it a point for shock value. They put that scene at the end of the game because they wouldn't have to talk about it that way.

 

"Hey, you! Gringo! American white dude played by a famous actor! Go into that concentration camp while holocaust images flash on the screen, now shoot the nazi holding your Jewish buddy hostage so we can end the game. Make sure it's a slow motion headshot so you'll look like a badass. Don't worry, he'll be okay after he gets out of the hospital."

 

 

Anyway, thanks for the response. I know you weren't doing it for publicity, if that was the case you would have named the project "Super Concentration Camp FPS" not "Blade of Agony". But when these things aren't handled right, they do get publicity, and not the good kind. That's one of the reasons I was worried. Good luck, and thanks again for the detailed response. Please don't think that I ever felt that your intentions were bad, you've been in the community forever, I know better than that. UTaT was the first wad I ever played, so your work has a special place in my heart. Have a good day Torm!

[doomfighter667112349]

waiting for chapter 3 because it looks amazing and good day torm 

[D00mJedi]

Thanks, we hope not to disappoint :)

[Tormentor667]

After almost 6 years of being in development, we reached a special milestone today. With the latest commit on Tuesday, November 10th, 2020, the mod is fully playable, that means: all chapters can be played through from start to finish.

 

Because any of us in the dev team lives several thousands miles apart from each other (not to mention COVID-19 restrictions), we had to celebrate this with some good old German beers in our chat group, exchanging a few photos and videos to make sure everyone was drunk to celebrate this glorious moment - well it wasn't that glorious anymore after beer number then but... well, we had some fun, now on to the news people are waiting for.

 

In the middle of the year, we were certain that a release in the fourth quarter of 2020 was realistic. But during our own playtests, a large number of issues came up, and we needed to adress those first. This was also the reason why finishing the maps took us longer than expected. We fixed game-breaking bugs, we improved the storytelling, and we added new content to the first two Chapters - we polished like crazy.

 

Now that all of the maps are done, we will start to balance, fix, and finish the mod in order to make the best possible experience available for all you players out there. This also means that we need to spend some more time on the mod in order to achieve that. As of now, we are confident that a release in the first few months of 2021 is a reasonable target. Until then, we will make sure to keep you informed and entertained when it comes to Blade of Agony.

 

I recommend subscribing to our YouTube channel. We will be posting some interesting content on our YouTube channel over the next few weeks for those who are really impatient. Until then, stay safe, and have a good time.

[Phobus]

Congratulations on this long haul! I look forward to seeing what you've achieved when it's all done and polished up.

[Tormentor667]

 

The war is balancing on a knife's edge. It's not taking much longer for one side to win. Both sides have exhausted their forces, their morale is down to earth, and it's just a question of time when the war ends. Wolfenstein | Blade of Agony's Chapter 3 (including an completely overhauled Chapter 1+2) will be released in the first quarter of 2021. Stay tuned, get psyched!

[D00mJedi]

On 10/5/2020 at 12:36 AM, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

But don't tack it on at the last minute in a project like this. 

I have been on Blade of Agony team for about 4 years (!), and part of my coming to the team originally was to contribute my Sonder art to this particular level, that was planned already back then (and started actual mapping in 2018)
So you couldn't be farther from the truth.

It seems you see it all upside down. Actually the downside of "my" Sonder was - people expecting it to be accurate recreation of the 1944 revolt, and that particular camp in general.
This mod has the ADVANTAGE to be linked directly to fictional Wolf3D universe (like my safe Sonder remake), with all its oddities and lore (zombies, ghosts etc), and so noone will expect it to be historical/accurate depiction of the Holocaust.
It's also placed in fictional camp, and there is no direct jew mentioning there.

Edited December 9, 2020 by D00mJedi

[Mordeth]

33 minutes ago, D00mJedi said:

and there is no direct jew mentioning there.

 

Incidentally, there are (were?) various name drops in the form of text above prisoner cells in that first stealth level. Including names of German resistance fighters who gave their life trying to prevent a fascist takeover of their home country. The game could have done without those references as well, if you ask me.

[Tormentor667]

This is mostly meant as a honorable homage to those resistance people - I never meant that to be offending.

 

At the end of C3M1, almost all prisoners were freed so almost none of them actually dies in this fictional approach.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tormentor667

[Tormentor667]

Wolfenstein | Blade of Agony Chapter 3 - Comparison between 2015 and 2020 and why did it even start?
In this developer video of 'Blade of Agony' Chapter 3, the project lead Daniel 'Tormentor667' talks about the differences between the release in 2015 and the (in 2020) currently in development 2020 version of the game - mostly comparing the very first mission. Get some insight information about what the team is doing to improve the overall experience and how the game even started, it's worth it, it's exciting and it's full of grammar mistakes and an ugly german voiceover ;)

 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Tormentor667

[Tormentor667]

Wolfenstein | Blade of Agony Chapter 3 - The "Eder Damn" overhaul: What's new?

 

In this developer video of 'Blade of Agony' Chapter 3, the project lead Daniel 'Tormentor667' talks about the improvements that have been made on the existing maps in Chapter 1+2 while playing the "Eder Dam, Operation: Chastice. Get some insight information about what the team has been doing all the time to make sure, it is worth it to replay the original chapters before you jump into the final confrontation with Hitler and his henchmen. Get psyched!

 

 

[Tormentor667]

First post updated, time to talk about beta testing and user mods - see the first page for more information.

[Tormentor667]

 

A few days ago, the czech gaming magazine Score published a full preview article of Blade of Agony's Chapter 3 release after we've given access to a release candidate version to them. What can I say - it was worth it and the whole team is totally excited by the article, the kind words and the overall score of 92%. It is a great honor to see interest in our project and that even professional gaming journalism takes care of this.

 

If you aren't speaking czech yourself, don't worry - click on the link below for a full translation of the article done by MuadDib90, no spoilers included.

https://boa.realm667.com/index.php/8-news/208-preview-in-the-czech-print-magazine-score

[esselfortium]

Welcome back!

[Tormentor667]

"Silence is better than unmeaning words." -Pythagoras. Very clever person.