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Tormentor667

[Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Achievement Ideas? (p13)

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

It really doesn't. especially in topic as sensitive as this, the shock will be there regardless. 

When it comes to this, I agree, but assholes generally don't like warning people when they're going to do something stupid. They enjoy knowing that they've caught people off guard. Warning them would take away the element of surprise at least somewhat, and then the asshole will say "BuT I WarNeD YoU" when someone complains.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Wereknight said:

and of course literally nobody just can't simply play and enjoy the mod... sigh.

10 years ago, stuff like that was simple and nobody would even mind that...

Things change. But this specific one isn't knew - Doomjedi's Sonderkommando Revolt comes to mind. Although the critique there was why the mod had to depict the most dehumanizing part of the Auschwitz exterimination camp.

 

Some things are better left unplayed. But it was a unique setting.

 

6 hours ago, Ermin said:

are we going to see another closed thread lol

I rather expect a 12 part sequel of explanations, apologies and leavings.

 

I have no idea why Torm is doing this. 

 

4 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

If you dont want to play it, then DONT PLAY IT. You dont have to play it if you disagree with the content. Creators arent obligated to censor their work to appease everybody who complains.

The question is more why these references exist in the first place, with actual names. Why not fictionalized?

 

3 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

What specifically is transphobic? I havent played the mod myself. Have you? It seems like a lot of people are just taking every vague accusation at face value and not giving Tormentor667 any benefit of the doubt.

There is not much to doubt when using actual names from horrid places and describe characters from the community in debateable remarks.

 

Given BoA's dev cycle, some of the referential material might be dated. Which begs the question why it was written in the first place.

 

BoA ain't Postal, but its commentary at times is. It does not fit the game whatsoever.

 

Quote

It seems like it would be very strange for him to post this mod (a collaborative effort that took a long time to create) on the forum in a seemingly normal/friendly way, but also have outright personal hatred in it.

That's exactly why its strange. Seemingly this has existed for a long time.

Edited by Redneckerz

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

It really doesn't. especially in topic as sensitive as this, the shock will be there regardless. 

 

 

Man...to me, it's more shocking finding out that the wad had those kind of stuff released AFTER being tested "properly" and reviewed.

 

Good night...need a good sleep after this clusterfuck lol.

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2 minutes ago, RDETalus said:

My point is that if Torm was being selective in who he insulted, it would be more evidence of malice than just taking the shit at everyone equally.

Just because he didn't select the entire Doom community/Earth doesn't mean he wasn't selective. Are you saying it's okay to be a dick as long as you're a dick to more than one person?

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I just want to ask everyone this: why are some people convinced that Tormentor667 left the Doom community when that is not the case at all, and at the end of his farewell series he confirmed that he is not in fact leaving? He posted on the BoA ZDoom thread and github development page (indicating he is personally going to work on the mod) only yesterday.

 

He isn't gone. Maybe he left this thread, but he hasn't left the mod or the community. He definitely has the time to work on it so he definitely also should have the time to take responsibility for what has happened.

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1 minute ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Are you saying it's okay to be a dick as long as you're a dick to more than one person?

In a non-malicious context, yes. For example, you cannot be a comedian and only insult a specific group of people repeatedly.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

but assholes generally don't like warning people when they're going to do something stupid. 

I doubt being offensive for the sake of being was the intent here.

Though it doesn't excuse the fact that it people were put into such graphic depictions without prior knowledge.

 

This topic needed to be dealt with care, An I will say it was poorly done here but i highly doubt it was intentional.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

I doubt being offensive for the sake of being was the intent here.

I understand what you mean, and I know you're a decent person from your history here, but why would the content in this mod (making fun of someone's gender in particular) be in the mod for any reason OTHER than the fact that it's offensive?

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Just now, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

I understand what you mean, and I know you're a decent person from your history here, but why would the content in this mod (making fun of someone's gender in particular) be in the mod for any reason OTHER than the fact that it's offensive? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

The misgendering is inexcusably offensive so thats not even up for debate. Im mostly talking about the Concentration Camp mission of Chapter 3.

 

From what I've seen and played the intent was to show the reality of Nazi experimentation and Atrocities, which was a real thing that happened to POWs. Was it handled poorly, based on the responses here Yes. but I doubt the intent was to just be offensive.

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Not including or even referencing the Holocaust in a game about Nazis would be whitewashing buuuuut there's good and bad ways to talk about it and it seems like Torm missed the mark. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

The misgendering is inexcusably offensive so thats not even up for debate. Im mostly talking about the Concentration Camp mission of Chapter 3.

 

From what I've seen and played the intent was to show the reality of Nazi experimentation and Atrocities, which was a real thing that happened to POWs. Was it handled poorly, based on the responses here Yes. but I doubt the intent was to just be offensive.

When it comes to the holocaust material, I agree, I don't think that was completely intentional. That's a little more excusable since it is a topic that is hard to explore in video games, or even in books and films, let alone a Doom mod. It was handled poorly like you said, and that's different than just being an outright dick to people for no reason, which is what the problem is for me when it comes to this mod. Unfortunately, having poor taste and being a dick go hand in hand a lot of the time.

Edited by TheMagicMushroomMan

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How did Tormentor667 get away with all this given that he lives in Germany? Did he take care to host his content in another country, and separate his nickname from his real ID?

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5 minutes ago, printz said:

How did Tormentor667 get away with all this given that he lives in Germany? Did he take care to host his content in another country, and separate his nickname from his real ID?

I thought Germany already lifted their ban on nazi stuff?

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The question here is, how is it possible that tormentor found that things "good" for this project?

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14 minutes ago, RDETalus said:

I thought Germany already lifted their ban on nazi stuff?

 

I believe so, but to my understanding the original Wolf3D is still banned there. I guess they can incorporate assets from it though since Unity got away with bringing back the SS guys, though it partially redubs their sight sound and edits certain iconography that was originally just cut outright in the BFG Edition. And this seemingly hasn't stopped the game from getting some popularity there, as there are a handful of German made mods for Wolf3D like Der Angriff and Sensenmann.

 

That said, it seems to be on a case by case basis, and I'd heavily doubt they'd approve of the treatment of the Holocaust in this mod though...

 

1 minute ago, Gaia74 said:

The question here is, how is it possible that tormentor found that things "good" for this project?

 

I have no clue. Mentioning actual death camps was a step too far apparently but undead holocaust victims, ethnic slurs and misgendering prominent community members seems to be A-OK in his book. IIRC this isn't the only time this mod has been embroiled in controversy over bad taste, I vaguely remember some controversy over a blog post on Torm's site that showed a contextless screenshot of a swastika banner with a caption like "A new day is coming" or something like that that came off as looking like actual propaganda rather than a tease for a Wolfenstein-themed mod.

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27 minutes ago, RDETalus said:

I thought Germany already lifted their ban on nazi stuff?

They merely changed it from an outright ban for videogames only, to having games be allowed (or disallowed) under the same social adequacy clause (which allows the use of unconstitutional symbols for the purpose of art, science, research or education) as that used for film, television, print and so on. You can find more information on Wikipedia.

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2 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Doomjedi's Sonderkommando Revolt comes to mind

Guess who is behind episode 3?

 

One would think a German and an Israeli would be more attentive to how sensitive this kind of things is, and how broaching the subject needs to be done extremely well without marring it with crass humor or cheap shock value if you don't want a shitstorm... But maybe there was the equivalent a math overflow somewhere and that's how they fell back to edgelording about the holocaust.

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1 minute ago, Gez said:

Guess who is behind episode 3?

I thought the original was cancelled, but seemingly they picked it up.

 

You know, the idea is brilliantly original - But because it touches upon the most sensitive part of nazism, its impossible to translate properly to a gaming formula - Unless you go for a heavy narrative and a simulation. Neither of which i would think Wolf3D would be fitting for.

1 minute ago, Gez said:

 

One would think a German and an Israeli would be more attentive to how sensitive this kind of things is, and how broaching the subject needs to be done extremely well without marring it with crass humor or cheap shock value if you don't want a shitstorm... But maybe there was the equivalent a math overflow somewhere and that's how they fell back to edgelording about the holocaust.

At the very least they should read up on life within the Sonderblock itself. Shlomo Venezia's book Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz is a rare indepth look by one of the very few survivors. 

 

It is a miracle a book like that even exists, given that Sonderkommando themselves were exterminated by the same chambers after roughly 3 months of activity.

 

The details described add another layer of depravation that was nazism. It is in that regard a brilliant book that gives light to what i personally consider the bleakest part of human darkness one could imagine.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I thought the original was cancelled, but seemingly they picked it up.

I believe  Sonderkommando Revolt was officially released as Operation Eisenfaust: Origins with heavy visual and  storyline edits.

 

looks like the Sonderkommando Revolt mod curse was still lingering.

Edited by jazzmaster9

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, terrcraftguy695 said:

>be tormentor667 in 2017

>make a map for some doom project or whatever

>problem.jpg

>stuck with mappers block

>lightbulb.gif

>take a small section of a map from another wad

>imsuretheirisnonegitiveconequencesforthis.mp4

>fast forward 3 years

>someone plays your map.

>they notice the similarities and tell the wad author

>wad author talks to others in the community if they had similar things happen with them

>they confirm that they have had similar things happen with them and have talked to you in private about not doing it again

>wad author makes a callout post on his doomworld.com

>everyonehatesyounow.mp3

>passively imply that you will stop hosting one of the largest sites of wad materials if people keep being mean to you.

>doesntwork.png

>make an official apology

 

Out of the loop, whats the tea (or more specifically, the thread-links) on this? 

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Yeah, uh... How do I word this?

 

You're fucked in the head, Torm.

 

What in the actual shit were you thinking (or rather, were you thinking?) when adding this crap in?

After playing up to the end of E2 and then reading all this, it's clear to me now that you spent more time on murder + tiddy than you did making sure the game was working properly.

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Posted (edited)

"Her shirt opens when she is falling backwards - why?" - Quote of the day.

 

7 hours ago, whirledtsar said:

I have a sense of humor, so if a mod depicted me as a drunkard or shitting (which is what NotJabba said this mod does), I'd find it amusing. How about, instead of assuming it was made with offensive intent and has offended the relevant people, we let the people themselves respond? Are Heit and Enjay offended? Or are people feeling offended on their behalf?

 

And this mostly descibres what I thought while reading the past 3 pages.

 

If anyone is interested in further details about these issues, you can continue reading it on the corresponding GitHub Issues page where I have already explained why some decisions have been made and what we have already changed for an updated release.

 

Some of the things that have been mentioned here are already part of the mod since Chapter 2 without anyone caring about it. Content from Chapter 3 has been extensively tested by a huge amount of known and reputable members of the community (for example Scuba Steve) especially when it came to the sensitive topics.

 

"You're fucked in the head, Torm" - Congratulations for insulting me, and insulting everyone (!) who has been playtesting the mod as well. I am not gonna join this discussion here though, it's far from being objective and the usual "Torm-bashing" bores me to death.

 

 

Edited by Tormentor667

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I've been keeping an eye on this subject for a while, here's my thoughts, hopefully as unbiased as possible and understandable for both "sides" of the argument:

 

-Despite what your own view of right is (And I know for a fact you know this isn't right, the first rule of Realm667's forums forbid offensive content, despite the fact that this mod unapologetically waves around offensive content), it's easy to see that this behavior is widely perceived by the community as incorrect. Given that you've released this to be played by the aforementioned community, I'd say that meeting their reasonable demands of removing the trouble content would be the best option. 

 

-By keeping this content in the game, you're not only hurting your own image, but hurting the outside image of the community as a whole, this game had a huge reach outside of the community itself, It should be a top priority that it's as sanitary as possible because it can, and has, influenced people's perception of the personalities surrounding Doom.

 

-It's okay to accept that you've done something wrong, it's not a weakness, arguably it's a greater trait to recognize the errors in your own ways and put it right. You don't have to lie and back yourself into inescapable corners, it would be easier to acknowledge your mistakes, learn from them, and make an effort to change, and this incident is an opportunity to do that, take that opportunity.

 

I was hesitant to participate in this thread for the longest time because of the "haha thread's going to shit" attitude that seemed to manifest itself, but hopefully this puts the issue into perspective for you a bit more. Try to keep your releases sanitary in the future to avoid this happening again.

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11 hours ago, Toilet_Wine_Connoisseur said:

But Misgendering and deadnaming Randy Heit? you just gotta "simply play and enjoy the mod... sigh."

Uhhh... You're deadnaming her. Randi's name is Marisa Heit now.

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@Regular Warren Thanks for your point of view. As I said, various things have been already taken care of or are already being discussed to find a fitting and reasonable solution. It's not that we do not care about these things. We had a beta testing phase of several months, and during the development of Chapter 3 we put a lot of effort and time to take care of 'sensitive topics' and that's what currently annoys me:

 

People from the 'aforementioned community' playtested the mod extensively and approved things mentioned by @Not Jabba and what leads to the current (partially personal) bashing. If you want to know, who is 'fucked up in the head' as well, just check the credits of Blade of Agony - there is a category called "Playtesters", you will be surprised...

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